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    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Default 404 tow car

    Just a question I'm asking.
    I have a mate who needs needs a tow car. He has a really nice restored 404 UTE with a 504 motor. He doesn't want to buy another car and wonders what he can do to make the ute pull better.

    Would a V6 go into it with the current gearbox? What about 505 turbo diesel?

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    I'd suggest the 404 ute is really a bit light on for a serious tow car.

    But the time you spend a bucket full of gold changing engines et al you still have a 35 year old 404 ute. If it's been restored then that's more money already spend.

    I'd look for something Jap (diesel if that's your liking) and cheap. You will spend less money and get a more suitable vehicle.
    There has to be quite a few Hiluxes and Navara around at good price and parts are available at "milk bar".

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    Last edited by robmac; 18th July 2014 at 11:59 AM.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    What's he trying to tow .... It doesn't matter how big and strong you make the drivetrain, the manufacturers ratings are all you can tow. It's probably about 1ton with pathetically useless 65kg on the tongue if it's like most french cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I'd suggest the 404 ute is really a bit light on for a serious tow car.

    But the time you spend a bucket full of gold changing engines et al you still have a 35 year old 404 ute. If it's been restored then that's more money already spend.

    I'd look for something Jap (diesel if that's your liking) and cheap. You will spend less money and get a more suitable vehicle.
    There has to be quite a few Hiluxes and Navara around at good price and parts are available at "milk bar".
    I suggested the very same thing. Even an old V8 ford or holden on club plates
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    Towing Citroens. DS's probably the heaviest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Towing Citroens. DS's probably the heaviest.
    The legal towing capacity would be well and truly exceeded. Not to mention the braking the road performance of the 404 ute.

    Time to take a serious look at hiring a suitable vehicle or moving with a flat bed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Just a question I'm asking.
    I have a mate who needs needs a tow car. He has a really nice restored 404 UTE with a 504 motor. He doesn't want to buy another car and wonders what he can do to make the ute pull better.

    Would a V6 go into it with the current gearbox? What about 505 turbo diesel?
    I doubt there would be room for a V6 (at least without skinned knuckles). I know it's been done, but comparing engine bays between 404 & 504, I'd rather have the latter for V6.

    Now if the ute was to be rebuilt from the ground up, so to speak, and was structurally strong, I don't see any harm in putting in a more powerful donk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    The legal towing capacity would be well and truly exceeded. Not to mention the braking the road performance of the 404 ute.

    Time to take a serious look at hiring a suitable vehicle or moving with a flat bed.
    Yeah everyone has pretty well said what I was affraid off.

    Ill suggest he sells me the 404 and buys a old Navara so that I can borrow it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    I suggested the very same thing. Even an old V8 ford or holden on club plates
    You want to tow hydraulic Cit's we a 404 ..... That's plain bizare. You need a wank tank if you want to tow a car trailer.

    DS's aren't very heavy... probably 1.3tons all up for the early ones..... but gee's, the trailer going to weigh every bit of the 1.3tons as well. DS's need a bloody enormous trailer ( remember the 124" wheelbase bit).

    Now, DS to tow a 404 ... that makes more sense. They have a 1.8 ton tow capacity from memory. Your commonbores/fowlcans are really a bit low spec'd too ( even a poogoe 307 weighs in at 1.7tons these day... so it on a car trailer would be knocking on 3tons).

    You really need to look at an old wank tank... eg: patrol/crusier/proper heavy wank tank.

    I'm itching for a reason to go look at this one

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    I know if I do it'll probably end up back at my place though. early enough for a club permit, injection, proper manual gearbox, gruntier 4.4 V8, 4ton tow capacity, LPG .... But most of all it look very tidy and un-messed with. no towering lift kits, stupid huge mud tires... just clean and tidy looking.

    seeya,
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    Body graft onto a suitable donor...

    Via the aussiefrogs App
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    Dave, Colin H's 404 Ute was brilliant as a tow vehicle and over many years, hate to think how many hundreds of cars that has towed.
    504 Ti engine, the only one that I drove that went as it should, 504 front discs, 504 diff centre and wide 14 inch wheels.
    Don't know what people want, this was faultless and most importantly rock solid on the road.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    The average car trailer is probably 400-450Kg. Mine is only 380Kg. Add 1300Kg and you've got say 1750-1800Kg. Still way beyond 1100Kg of the ute.

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    Don't know what people want, this was faultless and most importantly rock solid on the road.
    The OP asked a question and opinions were given.

    What do people want ?

    1) A vehicle that will legally tow a 4 wheel trailer (around 1300-1500kg on it's own) plus a vehicle , say 1600-2000kg.

    2) A vehicle that has the body weight to stay on the road if the trailer tries to jack knife or sway.

    The first requirement removes the 404 from the equation.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    You can't really be serious .... a rental trailer is generally about 1.2tons... I've towed them plenty of time with my CX. Pull up on a pinch with the trailer dangling down a slight incline and just try getting the clutch out in first gear ( and I have close to 300Nm on tap in that).

    Your talking towing a minimum of 2.5tons with a car that weighs probably 1100kgs ... I'd never use a passenger car to tow a car trailer again with unless there was absolutely no other choice, and it was only a really short distance. Even a ute with a super low "crawler" type 1st gear is going to struggle. Gee's I've even grabbed low range to pull out at the end of my street with a loaded car trailer on the back of the Range Rover.... 'cos I was certainly going to burn the shit out of the clutch trying to get 5+tons moving from a standstill where the give way sign in on a gradient.

    If you have the load balanced perfectly the old stuff can tow fantastically ... I'e towed many heavy loads behind CX's and DS's (ie: car trailer loaded with CX's and DS's)... but gee's a 404 ... soggy squishy rear suspension, wheezy ancient engine ... it would struggle just pulling the 1.2ton empty car trailer (infact I'd sure the empty trailer would be outside it's manufacturers tow capacity).

    What do you think the first cop that spots and old 404 towing a car trailer is going to do ..... It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see it's so incredibly overloaded, they'll never allow you to proceed. Gee's I thought I was bad enough with a CX .... At least htem being 5meters long doesn't make it look like a tonka toy pulling a car trailer



    Then again .... Maybe I'm completelly wrong



    that's gotta have a couple of tons on it's tray

    seeya,
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    The average car trailer is probably 400-450Kg. Mine is only 380Kg. Add 1300Kg and you've got say 1750-1800Kg. Still way beyond 1100Kg of the ute.
    I asked around all the rental places here and they all said there trailers are way over 1ton .... Find me a twin axle full chequer plate trailer (like all the rental are) with spares, winch, long ramps etc... attached that weighs in at less than 1ton .... and I'll bloody fall over in shock ... I'm serious. An average 6 x 4 box trailer is probably around 400kg .... certainly NOT a twin axle car trailer iwth spare, winch ramps, that can carry a 5meter long Citroen DS!

    My car trailer that's a very lightly built angle iron frame .... I weighed it without the floor in, without a spare, without the ramps, without .... EVERYTHING I could pull off to try and get the tare down for rego.... was still 540kg.

    Now add spare (20kg ?), ramps (80kg), partial floor (100kg), winch (20kg) .... and my very lightly built trailer is suddenly bloody heavy.... even unloaded.

    Here's a 500kg car trailer ... with ramps, no winch, and no spare ....

    http://www.alumaklm.com/tandem-axle-...er-models.html

    I wonder how much a full alluminium trailer would be in Australia though.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 18th July 2014 at 05:10 PM.
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    We are talking a Ute here forget about the squishy suspension, these have massive leaf springs.
    404 utes are still used all round the world for such tasks and as I said 20 years of towing vehicles of all sizes in complete safety says plenty.
    The Utes look big, heavy and suitable, no way would you get pulled up.
    I've towed behind a Range Rover Classic and this Ute and would take the Ute any day, feels much better.


    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    You can't really be serious .... a rental trailer is generally about 1.2tons... I've towed them plenty of time with my CX. Pull up on a pinch with the trailer dangling down a slight incline and just try getting the clutch out in first gear ( and I have close to 300Nm on tap in that).

    Your talking towing a minimum of 2.5tons with a car that weighs probably 1100kgs ... I'd never use a passenger car to tow a car trailer again with unless there was absolutely no other choice, and it was only a really short distance. Even a ute with a super low "crawler" type 1st gear is going to struggle. Gee's I've even grabbed low range to pull out at the end of my street with a loaded car trailer on the back of the Range Rover.... 'cos I was certainly going to burn the shit out of the clutch trying to get 5+tons moving from a standstill where the give way sign in on a gradient.

    If you have the load balanced perfectly the old stuff can tow fantastically ... I'e towed many heavy loads behind CX's and DS's (ie: car trailer loaded with CX's and DS's)... but gee's a 404 ... soggy squishy rear suspension, wheezy ancient engine ... it would struggle just pulling the 1.2ton empty car trailer (infact I'd sure the empty trailer would be outside it's manufacturers tow capacity).

    What do you think the first cop that spots and old 404 towing a car trailer is going to do ..... It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see it's so incredibly overloaded, they'll never allow you to proceed. Gee's I thought I was bad enough with a CX .... At least htem being 5meters long doesn't make it look like a tonka toy pulling a car trailer



    Then again .... Maybe I'm completelly wrong



    that's gotta have a couple of tons on it's tray

    seeya,
    Shane L.

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    I have a single axle car trailer, for 205, which weighs 400kg, I tow it behind the 405 Sri, 400 plus 850 is near enough to the rated capacity of 1200.
    No problem with stability but an Mi16 Gearbox would be nice, got to remember to leave it in 4th or it ends up below 2000 all the time. The economy is great better than 10 litres a hundred while towing but I have to say the 404 ute is better, mainly because of the commercial rear suspension, for the occasional towing job the 405 is OK.
    Tandec trailers are notorious for weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I asked around all the rental places here and they all said there trailers are way over 1ton .... Find me a twin axle full chequer plate trailer (like all the rental are) with spares, winch, long ramps etc... attached that weighs in at less than 1ton .... and I'll bloody fall over in shock ... I'm serious. An average 6 x 4 box trailer is probably around 400kg .... certainly NOT a twin axle car trailer iwth spare, winch ramps, that can carry a 5meter long Citroen DS!

    My car trailer that's a very lightly built angle iron frame .... I weighed it without the floor in, without a spare, without the ramps, without .... EVERYTHING I could pull off to try and get the tare down for rego.... was still 540kg.

    Now add spare (20kg ?), ramps (80kg), partial floor (100kg), winch (20kg) .... and my very lightly built trailer is suddenly bloody heavy.... even unloaded.

    seeya,
    Shane L.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    One question Graham, would get a Citroen on the same trailer as you squezze the 405 onto? The OP suggested mentoned a Citroen

    I would doubt the tow ball weight or possibly drawbar weight would be comply with the 205 rated towing capacity.

    You can tow any trailer with any vehicle and decide for yourself if it is "safe" (or convenient).

    Mr Plod or RTA will determine legality by the rule book.

    IMO it's a no brainer to choose a legal and better still over specced combination if you are doing lots of towing.

    Just as Shane and Addo have done.
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    205 behind 405.
    My point is that the 404 ute in question was perfectly suitable for towing and better than the Range Rover I have used at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    205 behind 405.
    My point is that the 404 ute in question was perfectly suitable for towing and better than the Range Rover I have used at times.
    My point is it LEGAL ?
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    205 behind 405.
    My point is that the 404 ute in question was perfectly suitable for towing and better than the Range Rover I have used at times.
    Must be pretty impressive to be better than soemthing designed for the task ( it probably is ). The range rover chassis it rated at 4ton for onroad work and something crazy like 12ton farm/industrial. The rear suspension has a boge load limiter on the middle of the axle so will "pump itself" back level in the similar way to a Citroen. The load leveller is on the center of the rear coil sprung axle, so will likely almost directly carry any load added to the towbar. The brakes are huge discs twin circuit (twin brake hoses ... twin master circuits) up front and discs on the back. It's designed for the task (well it was 40years ago anyway).

    The 404 must indead be spectacular if it's even better than a shitty old Range Rover. Any modern 4wd oil burner will be way better than a wheezy old 404 (or range rover, sure they maybe a V8, but your talking one wheezy low power very small capacity V8 ... My 4cylinder CX has considerably more pulling power).

    I reckon a CX or DS would be a way better tow car than the 404 ... and I assure you the Range Rover is way more competant than them. Your right the CX/DS combo does feel more stable towing, it sure as hell does when not towing too. The issue is, the trailer takes off or shred a tire ... or the load moves on it. With 3tons behind a lightweight passenger sedan I don't have a snowballs chance it hell of recovering it. In a 4wd that weighs 2.5tons empty ..... I might live to see another day.... and so might anyone else on the roads with me.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 18th July 2014 at 06:32 PM.
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  22. #22
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Here's a modern big 4wd towing a caravan that blows a tire ..... the caravan wouldn't be as heavy as a loaded car trailer



    Note: if there was oncoming traffic ..... He'd have been deep, deep merde.

    It looks like it pulled up fine right .... Now watch it a 2nd time and look at the reflection of the steering wheel in the top corner of the screen.... He's working bloody hard at the steering trying to keep that straight and shiny side up. Imagine if you were towing with a lightweight sedan.

    The driver must be one calm person... If that was me, I'd have had to well mute the video before upload

    seeya
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Dave, Colin H's 404 Ute was brilliant as a tow vehicle and over many years, hate to think how many hundreds of cars that has towed.
    504 Ti engine, the only one that I drove that went as it should, 504 front discs, 504 diff centre and wide 14 inch wheels.
    Don't know what people want, this was faultless and most importantly rock solid on the road.
    Colins ute was our inspiration. Colin built the 2L currently in this ute.

    Maybe he should make Colin an offer and body swap into his.
    David Cavanagh

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    Could be a good idea, Colins definitely needs a reshell, maybe the ute will live on?


    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Colins ute was our inspiration. Colin built the 2L currently in this ute.

    Maybe he should make Colin an offer and body swap into his.

  25. #25
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Shane's video reminded me of the car trailer getting a significant flat on Mona Vale Rd. Damn terrifying, and I only had one lane to play with.

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