Possible starting issue? Very minor. 306 GTi6
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Thread: Possible starting issue? Very minor. 306 GTi6

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Possible starting issue? Very minor. 306 GTi6

    As per thread title this is most likely nothing but can't hurt to ask. Twice in the last few weeks or so I've gone to start up my GTi6 and it has, well, died. I've turned the key and just as it sounds like it's going I let the key spring back, but instead of starting there's just nothing and the lights on the dash go completely off, then come back on. Both times the engine has been cold.

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    Battery is reading 12.71v at rest, 12.44v with the key turned to ON (heater would be on but nothing else), and 14.40v with the engine idling, which all sounds ok to me.

    Time to chuck it, or am I just not holding the key for long enough?
    2000 306 GTi6 'Josie'

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    Fellow Frogger! Decca's Avatar
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    12.44v when ignition is on doesnt really indicate battery condition. Cranking is when high current is needed and a crook battery wont hold its voltage when cranking.
    The engine computer needs over 11 volts to work and when cranking first thing in the morning.....there may not be 11 volts to run the computer which means injectors wont open, plugs wont fire etc.

    Battery may be on the way out. Cold weather sorts out the stuffed batteries.

    Decca
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    Wasn't able to test it when starting as will need a 2nd pair of hands for that. I'll get one of my housemates to help out tomorrow. So what's a healthy range when cranking? Just anything over 11v?
    2000 306 GTi6 'Josie'

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    If your dash lights go off after cranking I would say the battery is stuffed. You could use a meter with the leads anchored at the battery end with crocodile clamps and resting on your windscreen when cranking to see where the voltage dips without the help of another pair of hands. Or just hold the meter in one hand and stick the other through the window to work the key.
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    Alas the battery is on the passenger side! I might have some croc clamps somewhere though.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    If its more than a few years old its probably worth putting in a new one. Batteries are esoteric beasts and will do odd things when least expected - this I can cope with, but its the usual lack of warning that bugs me.

    I replaced a battery that is 8 years old but still registers 12.6 volts after resting overnight. Bit hard to tell what the cranking capacity is on a car that will always start on the first or second crank, but it once or twice cranked slowly - and I'm pretty sure it only "just" managed to crank it over a second time on a late sunday night after being in a freezing canberra basement carpark at work over the weekend.

    Depends if you're as much of a tightarse as I am. But if the battery is not new and all the connections are good and nothing else is obvious, a new battery is a good place to start.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Voltage dipped to 10v on first start, then 9.5v on a 2nd start. Still started up ok, maybe sounded a teensy bit sluggish but still fired on the 2nd turn so it's not really struggling to get going. The terminals are also pretty filthy so it's probably worth giving them a clean. FWIW the battery health indicator is showing bright green.
    2000 306 GTi6 'Josie'

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Shorted cell, I'd suggest.

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    Had it swapped out today as the old one was testing at barely half the rated amps. Sounds much healthier cranking.
    2000 306 GTi6 'Josie'

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    Just wanted to revisit this. I ended up having some sluggish starts when I was in Canberra through July, very close to zero on most mornings. Came back and went back to the place that dropped the new battery in, had it tested and it was showing higher than the rated CCA, though admittedly it wasn't quite as cold.

    Since then I've had it struggle a couple of times and it isn't even always that cold. Once it was particularly sluggish and actually stopped turning over completely, then after a pause it turned over a few more times and fired (without me releasing the key at any point). Car otherwise performs fine.

    In trying to test wtf is going on I've noticed two things-

    -If it's sluggish to turn and I let go of the key before it fires, upon trying again it starts almost immediately.

    -Normally I let the fuel system prime at ON, put on seatbelt, adjust radio etc, then go to start the car. If I don't wait for it to finish priming it seems to turn over quicker.

    I remember addo I think once mentioning that there's a one-way valve in the fuel system designed to maintain pressure, and that it likes to stop working. Could it be that the valve is cactus, hence sluggish starts if I don't turn the key right after/during priming? The issue is yet to leave me stranded but I'd still like to get to the bottom of it.
    2000 306 GTi6 'Josie'

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    The pressure reg is supposed to stop the fuel rail bleeding off pressure, I do believe the diaphragms harden a little with age. Normally the battery is first suspect, then the cabling (positive and ground). Fuel supply won't affect cranking speed, brush spring pressure and solenoid contacts will. A good sparky might measure how many amps are passing through the starter positive cable.

    That's all assuming you aren't getting coolant in the bores, which can restrict cranking...

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    AWOL coolant would be causing all sorts of running issues though, surely? It's only starting that's the issue, and it's not every time that it does it either.
    2000 306 GTi6 'Josie'

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Is it the original starter? Could be that the magnets are starting to let go. Mine was getting more and more sluggish starting, over a period of time, and I thought the battery was on the way out. Then one day it just refused to turn over at all. Magnets are glued in and eventually the glue gives out, and they all stick to the armature jamming the starter.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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    Can't comment on the starter I'm afraid, service records were misplaced when it changed hands prior to me buying her. A lot of components were replaced at that time but I don't recall if the starter was one of them. What's the best angle to get at a look at it from? If it was one of the replaced components it should still look relatively fresh, I've barely put 15,000km on her.

    Bloody thing hasn't played up even once since bumping the thread of course, even at the crack of dawn when sane people are still asleep and the temp display is showing single digits. I've been parking on or near inclines just in case though!
    2000 306 GTi6 'Josie'

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    It's under the inlet manifold, NS end of the engine. On the S16 the only way to get a good look at it is to take the inlet manifold off... Gti6 may be a bit better in that respect. A mirror down between the inlet manifold and the radiator (and some torch light) may give you an ok view.

    One thing that might help (if you don't already do it) is starting it with the clutch in. Not having to turn over gears in the gearbox with cold super thick gearbox oil, can help a bit. Not that it looks like it has been a problem

    edit: here's a pic of what happened to mine.. Possible starting issue? Very minor. 306 GTi6-dsc_1033.jpg

    Tony.
    Last edited by Wintermute; 12th August 2014 at 10:32 PM.
    FedGrapes and TrinityJayOne like this.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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    Cheers for pic, I'll have a poke around with the flashlight tonight.

    I've tried the clutch thing and hasn't seemed to make a difference, or at least it still struggles on occasion even with the clutch disengaged. The 'box was topped up with fresh oil a week or so ago as well after having the torque stabilizer swapped out. The outgoing stuff didn't look particularly bad!
    2000 306 GTi6 'Josie'

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    Default Looking at it isnt going to fix it im afraid

    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityJayOne View Post
    Cheers for pic, I'll have a poke around with the flashlight tonight.

    I've tried the clutch thing and hasn't seemed to make a difference, or at least it still struggles on occasion even with the clutch disengaged. The 'box was topped up with fresh oil a week or so ago as well after having the torque stabilizer swapped out. The outgoing stuff didn't look particularly bad!
    you are going to have to take it out ,probably just brushes ,but wouldnt be surprised if its cheaper to replace it

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Brushes are tuppence. Well, ten Euro posted the pair - with new pressure spring.

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Possibly worth doing addo, but if the magnets let go, it's time for a new one

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Yours is only one of two I've heard of doing that. There was a story that the Valeo exchange units (Polish remanufacture) were mostly to blame. That was some years ago, too.

    New cases with magnets can be bought, the usual brush and reg people on Fleabay have access to them.

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    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Mine was the original, not a re manufactured one Died after about 240,000KM and 18 years of service! I was under the impression it was a fairly common failure mode. Could be wrong though. New one set me back about $350 from memory

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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    Right, so just went to start her and got nothing. All the accessories are working fine but I turn the key, the dash dims slightly and there's silence. Can't hear anything moving either ie- solenoid or relay. I'll give it another go when I get home and it isn't so chilly but I reckon something has definitely snuffed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityJayOne View Post
    Right, so just went to start her and got nothing. All the accessories are working fine but I turn the key, the dash dims slightly and there's silence. Can't hear anything moving either ie- solenoid or relay. I'll give it another go when I get home and it isn't so chilly but I reckon something has definitely snuffed it.
    IN SHOPPING AT THE WRONG PLACE ,last set cost me $40 ,was thinking that if its a daily driver a quick change over would be ,the way to go ,spose me living in an area were these things are not readily available ,has made me wary about ,down time and locating and waiting for parts ,could pull it apart with a set of brushes in your hand only to find the magnets let go then you have to find a starter before monday ,thats presuming the individual is capable of getting the starter out and fitting them ,pugs

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! Wintermute's Avatar
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    Sound's like it's gone. The dash lights dimming is an indicator. (ie it is still drawing lots of current) you can see in mine the heat damage. I think this occurred when it jammed. It draws a lot of current, I suspect more when jammed.

    if you pull it out and take off the front you will be able to tell if it is magnets or brushes.

    Tony.
    306 S16 1995 black
    Morris 1100 1965 green

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