404 Woes
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 25 of 25
Like Tree2Likes
  • 1 Post By baldrick56
  • 1 Post By GRAHAM WALLIS

Thread: 404 Woes

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    240

    Icon8 404 Woes

    I'm in the throws of 'Re-comissioning' (I think its called) a '69 404 Sedan. So far I've chased around every hydraulic component in the brake circuit renewing or refurbing. The radiator's been replaced. The fuel pump renewed, the tank's been removed, emptied (including miscellaneous plastic debris swilling around in there), cleaned, and flushed.

    About four attempts to get the car to the 'Blue-Slip' garage failed due to it expiring within 100m of the back gate due to fuel feed issues. Finally achieved the legalities, during which the clutch slave cylinder gave up the ghost & had to be replaced, got it rego'd, oil changed, new / cleaned filters (about the sixth in the case of the fuel filter), and now running. Still got a bit of an intermittent misfire issue (suspect there's still a shovelfull of krap lodged in the carby).

    Not entirely new to Pugs as I had a 205D back in the 90's, but this is the oldest one I've owned and I was looking forward to the legendary toughness (East African Safari, built for the French colonies, Redex Trials etc etc). Coming back from a 20kM trip the other day as we neared home the gears became increasingly difficult to select - the odd crunch now & again prompting my wife to give me that sideways look (it's her car after all!). Reaching home it occured what might be wrong and prizing open the clutch reservoir it was immediately obvious that the three teaspoons worth of 'reserve' had indeed disappeared (clutch master-cyl to be added to shopping list). Aha - rushed into the garage, poured some fresh DoT3 into the pot, jumped back in, pumped clutch up & down a few times to expel air - but No, try as I might there was no getting any gear other than 3rd or 4th. Gave up and pushed the car back onto the driveway (thanks neighbours), lifted the front, crawled under while wife manoevred the gears. At first nothing appeared wrong but then I realised there's a little bracket coming off the base of the steering column supporting the fulcrum of one of the bell-cranks that had snapped. Looking at the remnants its about 5-6mm diameter - how the hell's that supposed to survive the East African Safari?

    Advertisement


    More pertinently how to fix the issue? Theoretically removing the steering rack, column, column tube, and replacing same would produce a job where I could be confident that the alignment of the gearshift would be maintained - but I don't fancy rebuilding half the entire front end of the car to fix a stupid little bracket (that will probably fail again at the slightest difficulty with gearshifting). I determined that if I removed the front section of exhaust there might (just) be enough room to weld the bits of bracket together, although holding the bits in alignment while making the weld will be 'challenging' to say the least. Overall not a fan of the 'column shift' arrangement - does anyone know a way of converting to 'floor' shift that's not too expensive?

    Anyone else had this problem & successfully fixed it?
    Baldrick

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    canberra
    Posts
    860

    Default

    the broken gearshift pivot you mention is common, but i have not heard of one breaking again after welding adequately,
    the original gear shift adjusted properly should change with 2 fingers pressure on the stick thru the gate, hard to get a better change

    you may be able to adapt a floor shift mechanism from a 504 wagon not sedan,they have the same gearbox
    i have not done this, others may have

  3. #3
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Menzies Creek
    Posts
    2,542

    Default

    I fitted a floorshift to a 504 using an early 504 wagon gearbox and selector. Your car being a '69 should have a BA7/4 gearbox, so it is a fairly straightforward conversion. You need to change the gearbox, or at least the rear housing, to use the 504 selector mechanism.

    The later 504 wagons and 505 wagons are no good as a donor as they have the gear selector mounted to the body rather than the gearbox.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Thanks Alpine & Demannu,

    The bracket's now welded back together - the ?nylon? bushes disintegrated when I took out the spindle from the old bracket so I've got to find something to pack out the bearing (don't fancy paying 50 Euros +freight for the full 'refurb' kit for all cranks / joints). The job's escalated (don't they ever) as one of the studs on the manifold joint snapped during exhaust removal - no way could I get enough force / leverage on the remnant to shift it so now the whole manifold's off and on the bench. The rear end of the exhaust's a mess as well 'cos I gave up trying to separate it & used a disc cutter. Not possible to test whether I've got the gearshift bracket in alignment 'til a new exhaust's back in place - if it isn't then off with the exhaust gain I s'pose :-(

    I'll start looking for a donor 504 for the gearshift componentry - my house is in a dip with a hill of probably 10% or more whichever direction you choose. I know 'cos I've proved it the 404 will climb these hills in third - IF you're not starting from the house. If you are, then very quickly the engine will reach flat-chat in second but with that two-finger-pressure / be-gentle-with-it bl**dy column change by the time you've got third all momentum's gone and it won't pull no more - I just know that with a floor change you could snick it up a notch and keep going.
    Onwards,
    Baldrick
    markb2501 likes this.

  5. #5
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Menzies Creek
    Posts
    2,542

    Default

    I'd stay in second and save my synchros.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

    1999 Range Rover 4.6 HSE - 'Grover' - tow car

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Update to the sorry saga:
    The broken bracket is now welded back together. The front section of exhaust got destroyed during the removal process (it was horribly rusty anyway). The car now sports a replacement stainless steel front exhaust section (pity about the even more rusty rear section). It's all pieced back together again and today I started up and tried to move the thing - result was I still only had first & third gears :-( The Haynes manual proved useless (predictably) at detailing how to adjust the linkage. Studying from under the car I realised that the "upper" crank (going into the back of the box) has a 'sliding' connection, the rod can move along having undone the pinchbolt. FOUR times I've adjusted the thing this arvo - with the same effect, that is I can get First gear (second too even) for about five or six attempts while moving on the driveway, then suddenly Third will engage when attempting First (usually at this point when I've gone out the drive onto the road). I'm now running out of adjustment space on the rod to take up any more slack. Oddly reverse doesn't seem to be affected - this will engage without problem.
    I'm totally pee'd off with the thing now - anyone want to make me an offer on a big red heap of scrap metal? (with some expensive and new stainless steel included) oh - and a dent in the back fender where I kicked it today :-/.
    Baldrick

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,211

    Default

    The front- back adjustment of the gear lever is bitch.

    You need to set up the twin nuts on the end of gear lever to a preset condition (listed in the manual).

    Likewise the length of rest of the connecting rods. You need to start from a known point and then fine tune.

    Someone here will have the preset lengths of the rods.

    I'll have a search... Send me your email by pm.
    The less one interacts with rude, ignorant, critical and argumentative members. The more peaceful life becomes.

  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,290

    Default

    Just need to set the shaft coming out of the bottom of the box to halfway in (3rd 4th plane) , after loosening the adjustment nut, then do up the nut.
    You can feel the halfway point, gets freer to move when in the 3rd 4th plane.
    Gearchange is the best part of the 404 although nowadays I'm not a great fan of the 404.
    I've got examples of all the really good Peugeots, 203/403/205 and 405, took me 45 years to come to that conclusion!


    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    Update to the sorry saga:
    The broken bracket is now welded back together. The front section of exhaust got destroyed during the removal process (it was horribly rusty anyway). The car now sports a replacement stainless steel front exhaust section (pity about the even more rusty rear section). It's all pieced back together again and today I started up and tried to move the thing - result was I still only had first & third gears :-( The Haynes manual proved useless (predictably) at detailing how to adjust the linkage. Studying from under the car I realised that the "upper" crank (going into the back of the box) has a 'sliding' connection, the rod can move along having undone the pinchbolt. FOUR times I've adjusted the thing this arvo - with the same effect, that is I can get First gear (second too even) for about five or six attempts while moving on the driveway, then suddenly Third will engage when attempting First (usually at this point when I've gone out the drive onto the road). I'm now running out of adjustment space on the rod to take up any more slack. Oddly reverse doesn't seem to be affected - this will engage without problem.
    I'm totally pee'd off with the thing now - anyone want to make me an offer on a big red heap of scrap metal? (with some expensive and new stainless steel included) oh - and a dent in the back fender where I kicked it today :-/.
    Baldrick

  9. #9
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,290

    Default

    2nd to 3rd change in a 404 column shift should be instantaneous, trouble is most people around now didn't drive them when new so don't know what they should be like.

    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    Thanks Alpine & Demannu,

    The bracket's now welded back together - the ?nylon? bushes disintegrated when I took out the spindle from the old bracket so I've got to find something to pack out the bearing (don't fancy paying 50 Euros +freight for the full 'refurb' kit for all cranks / joints). The job's escalated (don't they ever) as one of the studs on the manifold joint snapped during exhaust removal - no way could I get enough force / leverage on the remnant to shift it so now the whole manifold's off and on the bench. The rear end of the exhaust's a mess as well 'cos I gave up trying to separate it & used a disc cutter. Not possible to test whether I've got the gearshift bracket in alignment 'til a new exhaust's back in place - if it isn't then off with the exhaust gain I s'pose :-(

    I'll start looking for a donor 504 for the gearshift componentry - my house is in a dip with a hill of probably 10% or more whichever direction you choose. I know 'cos I've proved it the 404 will climb these hills in third - IF you're not starting from the house. If you are, then very quickly the engine will reach flat-chat in second but with that two-finger-pressure / be-gentle-with-it bl**dy column change by the time you've got third all momentum's gone and it won't pull no more - I just know that with a floor change you could snick it up a notch and keep going.
    Onwards,
    Baldrick

  10. #10
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Rome
    Posts
    2,660

    Default

    Along with the Renault 16 the (later) 404's had the nicest column changes around.

    Dave
    2008 Renault Laguna 2.0 dCi break
    ​1997 BMW K1200RS

    IR655
    (George Bush Snr): "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are."


  11. #11
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    HOBART
    Posts
    1,265

    Default

    I have a 404 with the engine out and gear box still connected up, so if any measurements are needed let me know.
    1998 Peugeot 406 D8SV Manual
    1999 Peugeot 406 D8ST Auto
    2002 Peugeot 406 D9SV Manual
    1994 Peuegot 306 N3 Cabriolet Manual
    1994 Peugeot 306 XR N3 Hatch
    1995 Peugeot 505 GTI executive
    1976 Peugeot 504 Sedan - Now sold

    Over 60 Pugs in my time
    Gerry Mullock

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Thanks Robmac, GW, Pugnut1
    Yet another update - got the gears shifting now. Was utterly confused by the 'specified' lengths for the shift rods (The 'lower' is supposed to be 244mm for RHD cars & the 'upper' 77mm), on my car the 'upper' becomes the 'lower' & vice versa depending whether your looking at the gearbox end or the 'clutch' end {they cross over}, that aside one of mine was about 244 as near as I could tell - the other was 350ish mm. The eureka moment was when I realised (what GW points out above) that the lower rod is (partly) controlled by movement of the upper lever & in neutral should be at the 'halfway' point - when I adjusted to this, problem solved (albeit that this rod is now right at the limit of it's adjustable length - probably got the bracket pin two micro-millimetres out of place when I welded it - how careless).
    However the car once again displayed its uncanny knack of being intensly annoying - I 'treated' it to a new set of contact points & condensor (8.5 Euros from Fransoze plus about the same in postage), gapped, and re-set the timing. My intention was then to change the gearbox oil (one of the last jobs on the 're-commissioning' list that hasn't happened yet due to all the other issues cropping up), so off I went to get the oil warm (plus test that I really had got the gearshift hunky-dory). Got around the corner and the engine started running rough, spitting and popping. After five mins at the kerbside gunning the thing it suddenly 'cleared' so off I went, thinking that all the sitting around the car had done had allowed more fuel contamination (see all the comments about fuel feed/ dirty tank at the beginning of this post). Fifteen mins later, including a blast down the highway @80kph I'd almost made it home when it died once more. There then ensued about an hour of pulling off fuel lines / blowing through lines / jets etc to no avail. At some point I thought - 'well it went OK yesterday & the only thing I've changed is the points & condensor' so back to the garage, pick up the old components, reinstall and vroom - instant cure - ran smoothly once more. Can't even blame cheap inferior Chinese pattern parts - "Made in France" was stamped all over the new units. The gear oil's still waiting to be changed :-/
    Baldrick56

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,539

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    Thanks Robmac, GW, Pugnut1
    Yet another update - got the gears shifting now. Was utterly confused by the 'specified' lengths for the shift rods (The 'lower' is supposed to be 244mm for RHD cars & the 'upper' 77mm), on my car the 'upper' becomes the 'lower' & vice versa depending whether your looking at the gearbox end or the 'clutch' end {they cross over}, that aside one of mine was about 244 as near as I could tell - the other was 350ish mm. The eureka moment was when I realised (what GW points out above) that the lower rod is (partly) controlled by movement of the upper lever & in neutral should be at the 'halfway' point - when I adjusted to this, problem solved (albeit that this rod is now right at the limit of it's adjustable length - probably got the bracket pin two micro-millimetres out of place when I welded it - how careless).
    However the car once again displayed its uncanny knack of being intensly annoying - I 'treated' it to a new set of contact points & condensor (8.5 Euros from Fransoze plus about the same in postage), gapped, and re-set the timing. My intention was then to change the gearbox oil (one of the last jobs on the 're-commissioning' list that hasn't happened yet due to all the other issues cropping up), so off I went to get the oil warm (plus test that I really had got the gearshift hunky-dory). Got around the corner and the engine started running rough, spitting and popping. After five mins at the kerbside gunning the thing it suddenly 'cleared' so off I went, thinking that all the sitting around the car had done had allowed more fuel contamination (see all the comments about fuel feed/ dirty tank at the beginning of this post). Fifteen mins later, including a blast down the highway @80kph I'd almost made it home when it died once more. There then ensued about an hour of pulling off fuel lines / blowing through lines / jets etc to no avail. At some point I thought - 'well it went OK yesterday & the only thing I've changed is the points & condensor' so back to the garage, pick up the old components, reinstall and vroom - instant cure - ran smoothly once more. Can't even blame cheap inferior Chinese pattern parts - "Made in France" was stamped all over the new units. The gear oil's still waiting to be changed :-/
    Baldrick56
    Your points will be fine no doubt... Howver it doesn't surprise that an aged/un-used condenser will have died, they are after all just a capacitor. Keep plodding away at it mate, your talking cars nearly 50years old here. Once you have it on the road and the teething issues fixed.... Any issues you have will drop off immensely.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    2,694

    Default

    baldrick,
    In order to preserve the points during storage they may have a light coating of wax ?
    A good idea is to wipe the points contacts with cloth and carb cleaner/ petrol or such.
    Too much grease on the dist. cam may have found its way onto the points. [Clean off old grease before fitting ?].
    The fibre rubbing block may have worn off its 'high points' allowing the points to close up. A slightly wider points gap at initial installation can help [+ 002"]. Reset later.

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    240

    Default

    Well I didn't get to enjoy my pristine gearchange for long :-(
    The new clutch master-cylinder arrived on Friday so I determined to fit it - to avoid having to carry around a bottle of brake fluid to top up every day if for no other reason. Tearing open the packet revealed that the new part looked identical to the old - what could possibly go wrong?
    This morning, off came the old one, cleaned up the mounting and the pipe connector and had it fitted in no time. Called away to a lunch social I left the trifling task of filling it and bleeding the air until I returned. I was just too late to call in at the local Repco on the way to lunch to get another bottle of fluid but no matter - I had 3/4 bottle of recent vintage on the shelf - should be more than sufficient.
    I should explain at this stage that I'm not considered to be especially 'ham-fisted' and have successfully fixed car components for many years without undue destruction. Pouring in the blue liquid and pumping the clutch pedal a few times I could see (courtesy of the clear tube) that there was lots of air in the system. Applying the bleed tube at the slave cyl. end didn't seem to make much difference - great gobs of air just moved back & forward without getting as far as the bleed point or out the master cyl end. Wedging the pedal down and tapping the tube to collect the air at the top I was rewarded with some bubbles escaping from the m.c. - I had to do this a few times. Eventually I had the liquid / air ratio to the point that there was some semblance of the system working & called my wife back to pedal pressing duty for what I hoped to be the final time. Under the car I was tightening the bleed nipple at the end of each pedal stroke and loosening at the top (there is a N.R. valve on the bleed tube but I'm old-fashioned). Just when I thought I could see no more bubbles at the downstroke tightening there was a shifting beyond the seating of the nipple. At that point loads of air started to reappear in the tube between the cyls. - yep, I'd stripped the thread on the bleed nipple. Now the slave cyl is (was) new - had to be changed by the garage to obtain the NSW 'Blue Slip.' I do recall the mechanic telling me he'd had to move the steering rack to fit the thing. (Any resemblance between me and "Closeau's" boss at this point was purely coincidental) Well, nothing for it - its got to come off again so I jacked up the front a bit higher, undid the tube and the clip from the cyl., started to undo the steering rack but Lo - the left hand one starts winding its way through the back of the sump before it disengages from the rack. Now I'm currently restoring a 1953 Citroen and somehow I just expect everything to 'clash' on any Citroen - the design's just so wacky that there's no way of avoiding every component being in almost every other component's way - but a Peugeot? Let's recap, we have a 'conventional' North-South front engine driving through the rear wheels - what possible excuse have they got? (other than they're just frustrated Citroen designers).
    All this idle speculation however is not going to help me remove this damn cylinder so I've decided on a modification - the 'load' from the slave cylinder is on the rear face of the carrier bracket (transferred through the circlip) so the front portion does nothing except locate the cylinder (and make me very cross) which it could equally well do with half a circle (or less) so out with that Peugeot 'special tool' - the disc - cutter. My plan is to remove enough metal to allow the slave cyl to rotate downwards once its gone far forward enough to hit the rack (some way to go yet as per this photo)
    404 Woes-p1010391.jpg
    - if it doesn't work - anyone know if it's possible to install the cable operated clutch as in the older 404's to the later model?

  16. #16
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,290

    Default

    Never had a cable clutch, used rods, but won't fit anyway as the gearbox and clutch is totally different.
    You don't need to do a thing to the slave cylinder to bleed the clutch.
    Simply take the cap of the master cylinder and whist pushing down the valve in the middle of the reservoir move the clutch pedal up and down, no need to put your foot on the pedal, just move the push rod up and down with your fingers..
    The air will make its way to the top of the reservoir.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    Well I didn't get to enjoy my pristine gearchange for long :-(
    The new clutch master-cylinder arrived on Friday so I determined to fit it - to avoid having to carry around a bottle of brake fluid to top up every day if for no other reason. Tearing open the packet revealed that the new part looked identical to the old - what could possibly go wrong?
    This morning, off came the old one, cleaned up the mounting and the pipe connector and had it fitted in no time. Called away to a lunch social I left the trifling task of filling it and bleeding the air until I returned. I was just too late to call in at the local Repco on the way to lunch to get another bottle of fluid but no matter - I had 3/4 bottle of recent vintage on the shelf - should be more than sufficient.
    I should explain at this stage that I'm not considered to be especially 'ham-fisted' and have successfully fixed car components for many years without undue destruction. Pouring in the blue liquid and pumping the clutch pedal a few times I could see (courtesy of the clear tube) that there was lots of air in the system. Applying the bleed tube at the slave cyl. end didn't seem to make much difference - great gobs of air just moved back & forward without getting as far as the bleed point or out the master cyl end. Wedging the pedal down and tapping the tube to collect the air at the top I was rewarded with some bubbles escaping from the m.c. - I had to do this a few times. Eventually I had the liquid / air ratio to the point that there was some semblance of the system working & called my wife back to pedal pressing duty for what I hoped to be the final time. Under the car I was tightening the bleed nipple at the end of each pedal stroke and loosening at the top (there is a N.R. valve on the bleed tube but I'm old-fashioned). Just when I thought I could see no more bubbles at the downstroke tightening there was a shifting beyond the seating of the nipple. At that point loads of air started to reappear in the tube between the cyls. - yep, I'd stripped the thread on the bleed nipple. Now the slave cyl is (was) new - had to be changed by the garage to obtain the NSW 'Blue Slip.' I do recall the mechanic telling me he'd had to move the steering rack to fit the thing. (Any resemblance between me and "Closeau's" boss at this point was purely coincidental) Well, nothing for it - its got to come off again so I jacked up the front a bit higher, undid the tube and the clip from the cyl., started to undo the steering rack but Lo - the left hand one starts winding its way through the back of the sump before it disengages from the rack. Now I'm currently restoring a 1953 Citroen and somehow I just expect everything to 'clash' on any Citroen - the design's just so wacky that there's no way of avoiding every component being in almost every other component's way - but a Peugeot? Let's recap, we have a 'conventional' North-South front engine driving through the rear wheels - what possible excuse have they got? (other than they're just frustrated Citroen designers).
    All this idle speculation however is not going to help me remove this damn cylinder so I've decided on a modification - the 'load' from the slave cylinder is on the rear face of the carrier bracket (transferred through the circlip) so the front portion does nothing except locate the cylinder (and make me very cross) which it could equally well do with half a circle (or less) so out with that Peugeot 'special tool' - the disc - cutter. My plan is to remove enough metal to allow the slave cyl to rotate downwards once its gone far forward enough to hit the rack (some way to go yet as per this photo)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1010391.jpg 
Views:	235 
Size:	93.2 KB 
ID:	58571
    - if it doesn't work - anyone know if it's possible to install the cable operated clutch as in the older 404's to the later model?
    Wildebeest likes this.

  17. #17
    VIP Sponsor
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Posts
    9,290

    Default

    Never had a cable clutch, used rods, but won't fit anyway as the gearbox and clutch is totally different.
    You don't need to do a thing to the slave cylinder to bleed the clutch.
    Simply take the cap of the master cylinder and whilst pushing down the valve in the middle of the reservoir move the clutch pedal up and down, no need to put your foot on the pedal, just move the push rod up and down with your fingers..
    The air will make its way to the top of the reservoir.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    Well I didn't get to enjoy my pristine gearchange for long :-(
    The new clutch master-cylinder arrived on Friday so I determined to fit it - to avoid having to carry around a bottle of brake fluid to top up every day if for no other reason. Tearing open the packet revealed that the new part looked identical to the old - what could possibly go wrong?
    This morning, off came the old one, cleaned up the mounting and the pipe connector and had it fitted in no time. Called away to a lunch social I left the trifling task of filling it and bleeding the air until I returned. I was just too late to call in at the local Repco on the way to lunch to get another bottle of fluid but no matter - I had 3/4 bottle of recent vintage on the shelf - should be more than sufficient.
    I should explain at this stage that I'm not considered to be especially 'ham-fisted' and have successfully fixed car components for many years without undue destruction. Pouring in the blue liquid and pumping the clutch pedal a few times I could see (courtesy of the clear tube) that there was lots of air in the system. Applying the bleed tube at the slave cyl. end didn't seem to make much difference - great gobs of air just moved back & forward without getting as far as the bleed point or out the master cyl end. Wedging the pedal down and tapping the tube to collect the air at the top I was rewarded with some bubbles escaping from the m.c. - I had to do this a few times. Eventually I had the liquid / air ratio to the point that there was some semblance of the system working & called my wife back to pedal pressing duty for what I hoped to be the final time. Under the car I was tightening the bleed nipple at the end of each pedal stroke and loosening at the top (there is a N.R. valve on the bleed tube but I'm old-fashioned). Just when I thought I could see no more bubbles at the downstroke tightening there was a shifting beyond the seating of the nipple. At that point loads of air started to reappear in the tube between the cyls. - yep, I'd stripped the thread on the bleed nipple. Now the slave cyl is (was) new - had to be changed by the garage to obtain the NSW 'Blue Slip.' I do recall the mechanic telling me he'd had to move the steering rack to fit the thing. (Any resemblance between me and "Closeau's" boss at this point was purely coincidental) Well, nothing for it - its got to come off again so I jacked up the front a bit higher, undid the tube and the clip from the cyl., started to undo the steering rack but Lo - the left hand one starts winding its way through the back of the sump before it disengages from the rack. Now I'm currently restoring a 1953 Citroen and somehow I just expect everything to 'clash' on any Citroen - the design's just so wacky that there's no way of avoiding every component being in almost every other component's way - but a Peugeot? Let's recap, we have a 'conventional' North-South front engine driving through the rear wheels - what possible excuse have they got? (other than they're just frustrated Citroen designers).
    All this idle speculation however is not going to help me remove this damn cylinder so I've decided on a modification - the 'load' from the slave cylinder is on the rear face of the carrier bracket (transferred through the circlip) so the front portion does nothing except locate the cylinder (and make me very cross) which it could equally well do with half a circle (or less) so out with that Peugeot 'special tool' - the disc - cutter. My plan is to remove enough metal to allow the slave cyl to rotate downwards once its gone far forward enough to hit the rack (some way to go yet as per this photo)
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P1010391.jpg 
Views:	235 
Size:	93.2 KB 
ID:	58571
    - if it doesn't work - anyone know if it's possible to install the cable operated clutch as in the older 404's to the later model?
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 20th July 2014 at 10:52 PM.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,211

    Default

    Gee, you seem to be making really hard work of replacing the slave.

    I vaguely recall undoing the tube nuts on the two engine mounts and jacking the engine up I think this gives enough clearance to withdraw the cylinder. I don't remember if I dropped the rack as well. I think not.

    Some cars allow removal easily :some don't

    Bleeding is snap you can do it two ways:

    Remove clutch master and the slave and assemble the nylon tube off the car. Then you can bleed in any position you please.
    Refit the master and drop the slave through the engine bay , remember the clip next to the wiper motor.

    OR

    Assemble in the car and fill up with fluid and pump the pedal furiously when you get some feeling pedal, go outside the car and press the little tit in the middle clutch fluid in the master. Repeat the procedure a few times. Eventually you will see the air bubbles floating up the nylon tube . When there are none the bleed is completed.

    The most problems I've had is when I didn't replace the nylon tube seals. These are a short piece of neoprene which is a firm fit on the nylon tube they have precision fit thin washers either side of rubber seal. There needs to be a steel plug in the end of the nylon tube as well, these are heat fitted and not removable.

    The clamping nuts should be firmly nipped up but not bottomed. If bottomed the rubber seal is chewed out or the washers either side are missing.

    PS Experience has shown me that sometimes 404 clutches just won't throw far enough. The rough and ready fix is to stick a brass tube nut from the top of a spark plug on top the clutch master push rod.
    For me anyway that always stopped 1st gear "snicking" when the clutch is fully depressed.
    Last edited by robmac; 20th July 2014 at 09:30 PM.
    The less one interacts with rude, ignorant, critical and argumentative members. The more peaceful life becomes.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    tweed heads
    Posts
    1,505

    Default

    Just did the gear shift adjust my short link was 85mm ,once shortened to 77 it now dousnt hit the instrument panel when selecting 1st although i still seen to switch on the left hand indicator when selecting reverse ,also my 244 rod is a fixed length ,will check the other for 350 ,also i second the cluch pedal travel ,i found there was some movement between the master cylinder and actuating rod ,i rectified this by fitting a ball bearing between the piston and the rod ,dousnt crunch into 1st anymore ,i may put a little heat on the indicater stalk to tweek it out of the way of the gear shift ,pugs

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,211

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    Just did the gear shift adjust my short link was 85mm ,once shortened to 77 it now dousnt hit the instrument panel when selecting 1st although i still seen to switch on the left hand indicator when selecting reverse ,also my 244 rod is a fixed length ,will check the other for 350 ,also i second the cluch pedal travel ,i found there was some movement between the master cylinder and actuating rod ,i rectified this by fitting a ball bearing between the piston and the rod ,dousnt crunch into 1st anymore ,i may put a little heat on the indicater stalk to tweek it out of the way of the gear shift ,pugs

    If the lever hits the steering column the gear change the rubbing block between the two washers at the end of steering column may be worn or the default position of the gear lever has been wrongly set.

    404 gear changes rock when all is set up correctly and all the bushes and ball joints are in good condition.

    It can take a lot of fiddling to get to that stage.
    The less one interacts with rude, ignorant, critical and argumentative members. The more peaceful life becomes.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    tweed heads
    Posts
    1,505

    Default

    Mine has been welded as well so ,dimensions may not be accurate ,i did extend the adjustable link behind the engine to bring the action down away from the dash , i fitted a couple of nylon spacers that limited the up down movement ,on the column rod ,the shift is now in the middle half of the range ,between the dash and wheel ,o huge improvement,havnt driven it yet as the front seats are away being re covered ,pugs

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Sydney, NSW
    Posts
    240

    Default

    OK - progress (of a sort) - there's still crud from the tank making its way through the lines (though lesser in volume now), driving is still a less than smooth experience though. As I've mentioned before there's lots of 'hesitation' when rolling along. This gets less (or at least less noticeable) the faster you go. At 110kph its quite happy - in fact wants to go even higher, 100kph pretty similar, 90 the hesitation just beginning to make itself felt and so on. To travel smoothly in a 60kph zone you have to change down to third & increase the revs (then its OK). At 50 its impossible to travel stutter-free in 3rd or 4th. To me this all seemed to add up to classic secondary (idle) circuit of the carburettor problems (the higher the revs the less the idle circuit is contributing to the party). I should add that all the jets / passages of the carby had already been blown through about five times now. (also worth mentioning that the points have been replaced / gapped, coil replaced, timing set, and plugs cleaned & gapped).
    I next removed the carby (Solex 34PBICA), stripped it apart, gave it a thorough clean, and reassembled - (not much improvement for the effort). One curiosity I noticed during this exercise was that the idle jet had apparently a vertical drilling above it, the short distance to the 'deck' (joint between lower & upper sections), but that this drilling was stopped up (not unusual as there are many others formed the same way). However, only after reassembling was I puzzled by the fact that the top section has a cutout in the upper section of the venturi directly above this 'stopped up' drilling. Not just that but they went to the bother of leaving a hole in the gasket over this port. Reading on the net lots of posts about 'idle air bleeds' I started to wonder if this is what that was & it was blocked. Trying to pry out any obstruction with a (sewing) pin didn't work, today I took the top off the carby again and with a hand drill & 1mm bit (smallest I had), had a go at clearing the thing. This operation proved one thing - it's all metal (presumably intentionally) so I didn't continue 'til I broke through - another reason for the hesitation would have to be found (assuming that the ongoing dirty fuel saga was masking another issue).
    My other angle of attack concerned the possibility of a 'vacuum leak' downstream of the carby. One thing I cannot understand is the crankcase breather system. Old days (I'm thinking Citroen B15 engine here) the crankcase breathing consisted of a vented 'stovepipe' cap on the rocker cover plus lower tube above the sump joint relieving any pressure buildup. The next innovation (present on most of the engines I can think of through the 60's & 70's) was to 'seal' the crankcase and have a hose going from some upper part (rocker cover usually) connecting to a point in the air cleaner just upstream of the carb, thus exploiting the low pressure area created by the suction through the carby to vent the fumes / pressure from the crankcase. However in the case of the 404 engine (XC6 in my car), this last method is 'supplemented' by a tee junction in said hose & the branch going to a tapping on the inlet manifold. Left to its own devices I cannot see how at idle speeds (or near idle) the massive vacuum in the inlet manifold would just suck air from the air cleaner box, bypassing the carb altogether and go roaring into the engine, weakening the mixture in whatever tiny amount managed to make it past the closed butterfly. It seems that perhaps there's a valve to stop this happening (or at least mitigate the effect) - its part Nr 1191.01 in the manufacturers parts list, the odd thing is it doesn't seem to be there on all engines (& what if it fails on those so-equipped?). I fell to wondering what would happen if I removed the 'branch' pipe and plugged the port into the manifold plus the one into the breather. So experimentally this has now been done, and the hesitation has gone! I'm wondering what the long term effect's likely to be if I keep the arrangement as it now is? - the crankcase is still being vented into the airbox inter the cleaner & the carby, The inlet manifold's now only got one take-off (to the Hydrovac unit) - I can't see any danger in operating like this - certainly not motivated to reconnect & have the jitters everywhere I go! :-/
    Baldrick

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Vancouver Island, Canada
    Posts
    1,762

    Default

    Good news!
    1966 Peugeot 404 Coupé Injection post-restoration reassembly underway!
    Register your 404: https://recensement.leclub404.com/submit.php

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Blue Mountains, NSW
    Posts
    437

    Default

    I don't think it'll lead to much of a problem blocking off the branch to the manifold. In the handful of 504s I've had, the breather port to the manifold is restricted by having a (approx) 1mm hole. I've only had the one 404, and I never took the breather pipe off it.

    If the 404 arrangement is the same, it's hard to see how it could give so much trouble. Maybe it's just a "last straw", and blocking the breather brings some other vacuum leak down to an acceptable level. Throttle spindle is one thing I'd look at. The return spring can hide the slop, so pull on it fairly firmly when checking. Alternatively, with the engine running, try squirting anything volatile (ether is usual, but e.g. brake cleaner works) around anywhere there might be a vacuum leak and see if the idle changes.

    But, as I said, blocking the breather off at the manifold won't do much harm (a bit more oil getting up into your air cleaner) so if you're happy with that...

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Perth Western Australia
    Posts
    2,694

    Default

    Baldrick,
    I'm a bit reluctant to offer 'advice' to someone who puts the boot into his car and attacks the slave cylinder with a chainsaw!

    However, the idle/part throttle problem. Is the air bleed or emulsion tube present in the carburettor?
    If I read right, the rack bolt fouling the sump. What is the condition of the engine mounts? The engine may have dropped. Rob's tip on jacking up the engine may point to this.
    As posted. "Tickling" the valve inside the clutch slave cylinder is the simplest bleeding method.

    All the best.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •