Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.

    Just out of curiosity, hypothetically speaking what are the consequences of running a 504 Ti motor with a different altimeter than it originally came with?

    And as a side note, is it normal for a 504 Ti motor to get a bit hot in traffic? I'm not talking going into the red but after sitting in traffic for an about an hour, getting further up in the 'normal' operating range, not in the red but getting close to it.

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    Cheers. (I apologise for my stupid threads of late but the experience you guys hold is invaluable).

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    Altimeter? What would a 504 need one for - I didn't know they could fly. An altimeter measures elevation (height above sea level) through the use of an aneroid barometer

    Do you mean thermometer - the thing that measures the temperature of the coolant? As long as it's in the same (or very close) range, I'd imagine you'd be alright. You need to expect some variation in temperature when sitting in traffic. If the themometer is working properly, the fan should cut in at the correct temperature (although I don't know specs of this for a 504).

    Derek

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    No, I do mean an altimeter, an altitude meter of some kind.

    They are part of the Ti motor aren't they? They sit by the fuel filter on the firewall.

    My question about temperature is completely seperate.
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    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    Louis, I know what you are talking about, but i don't have a TI, so i cannot be much help. Its to do with the injection? More air at higher altitudes?

    Some on here was talking about this a while back.

    My GL gets hot in traffic, approaching the red, but not going into the red in traffic. I think its just the ambient temperature is higher in the traffic, especially if the filter is breathing in somone else's hot exhaust.

    I am workign on some ducting, to see if i can get some cooler air into my engine.

    my thoughts

    BTW, there is no such things as a stupid thread when you are asking about peugeots, especially the 504's. I am biased I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    Just out of curiosity, hypothetically speaking what are the consequences of running a 504 Ti motor with a different altimeter than it originally came with?

    And as a side note, is it normal for a 504 Ti motor to get a bit hot in traffic? I'm not talking going into the red but after sitting in traffic for an about an hour, getting further up in the 'normal' operating range, not in the red but getting close to it.

    Cheers. (I apologise for my stupid threads of late but the experience you guys hold is invaluable).

    you should never separate the altimeter from the pump in a TI
    they are matched at the factory
    what will happen if you do is the car will never idle exactly right nor will it perform the way it should either
    the altimeter is just another part of the mixture system basically so that the car should never need resetting at different alititudes

    the car will get warm in traffic but when you start moving again does the temp come down again ?
    you may want to invest in a thermo fan as well just to aid the car in traffic
    you should also have a thermo fan on the water pump if someone foolish hasn't locked it up
    but an extra one at the front of the radiator may be helpful if you drive in traffic a lot
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    Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

    Yeah as soon as I start driving the temp comes right down. I will investigate adding another fan, but yeah as soon as I'm driving the temperature drops straight down so I guess it's just the nature of city driving.

    Hmm, admittedly I may have messed up here. The guy who installed the new engine kept my old altimeter and didn't put the 'right' one on. I questioned him about this but he believes it does not matter. This is considering both engines have always been in New Zealand and believe me, we don't exactly have big altitude differences, I live in Auckland and it takes about 30 mins to drive from one coast to the other.

    To me it is running really well, I bumped the idle speed up abit and it now idles right on or just a tad over 1000 rpm. I am happy with the performance but maybe it is not 100% given the altimeter situation?

    Unfortunately I returned my old motor back to the people I brought it off and they are sending it back to Tauranga (A small town out of Auckland) where the new motor came from.

    I will ring them and see if they haven't sent it back down yet. How hard/time consuming is it to swap them over?

    I feel rather stupid at the moment for not insisting the person who installed the engine keep the right altimeters attached. I believe he does know what he is doing generally though, he has new parts going back to the '60s, a 404 and 203 sitting in his backyard and even has the ONLY 504 Convertible in the country sitting there as he works on it. Not to mention having the original assembly line manuals from when 504's were assembled in Thames (Another part of NZ).

    So pugrambo is it safe to assume you recommend I swap the altimeter's over?
    Last edited by Louis; 22nd January 2004 at 02:04 PM.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    yes
    get the original one for the pump
    you may be just lucky but i was taught by a bloke that did his time on TI's that you should always keep them as sets as they are matched in the factory and were put on cars as such
    over the years i have played with TI engines i always ensured that i kept them in the sets as they came off cars and went back onto cars

    as for bumping up the idle that should never have to be done
    if you have had to do that then there is something out in the settings
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    Default A quote from the 504 factory manual!

    504 Workshop Manual, Class 1, Page 1317:

    WARNING - KF 5 and and XN 2 - the injection pump (1) and the altitude corrector (2) form an inseparable unit.

    A defect in one or other of these parts entails replacement of both of them.


    Get the other one back as pugrambo says and put it on pronto.

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    Sorry I was wrong!

    I should pull my head in hey?

    Derek

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    that's ok Derek
    TI's aren't something that someone would see on a daily basis so knowing what is and isn't in them is understandable

    but i did have a laugh when you mentioned aircraft lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    that's ok Derek
    TI's aren't something that someone would see on a daily basis so knowing what is and isn't in them is understandable

    but i did have a laugh when you mentioned aircraft lol
    Thanks pugrambo See, I do know my stuff, just not all the details of the 504TI. I want one now, so I can fly it Obviously air density is important to the mechanical injection system of the 504TI? Feel free to explain in detail - I'd love to know how it works. Just as a side note my uncle had a 504TI till he wrote it off on a corner

    Derek

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    Onya Derek!

    Actually, most injection has some way of accounting for density, but not all are direct measurement like Kugelfischer - eg. the air mass flap type sensors automatically adjust because the less dense air moves the sensor less, hence less fuel. K-jet is essentially the same, although it measures flow. I even think the hot wire mass sensors do the same - the wire cools down less with less dense air.

    Not pretending I knew what the hell Louis was on about though!

    Stuey

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    So I went down today to where my old engine is and swapped them over myself. (I'm glad it's fairly easy changing them).

    To be honest I haven't noticed any difference, maybe a slightly steadier idle.

    Altho it may be totally unrelated but it the motor did seem to run slightly cooler in heavy traffic on the way home.

    I guess it's probably for the best anyway as I wouldn't want to be on a long trip up in the mountains and have some issues.

    OK guys

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    So I went down today to where my old engine is and swapped them over myself. (I'm glad it's fairly easy changing them).

    To be honest I haven't noticed any difference, maybe a slightly steadier idle.

    Altho it may be totally unrelated but it the motor did seem to run slightly cooler in heavy traffic on the way home.

    I guess it's probably for the best anyway as I wouldn't want to be on a long trip up in the mountains and have some issues.

    OK guys
    running cooler so it now has the right mixture or closer to the right mixture now

    the idle should be smoother now
    even though a TI should have a slightly rough idle they should still be fairly smooth
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    Hello, I don't know if this is of any use after a decade-plus, but I have been trying to fix a desperately rich-running engine on my injection 504 (XN2 1971cc) . Symptoms of black sooty exhaust and same colour spark plugs.

    The main diaphragm is OK so I eventually started investigating the Altimeter. I am lucky enough to have a 'new' old stock altimeter, which I could swop out for the original.

    The difference was astonishing! Smoother running engine and almost biblical sized reduction in the petrol vapour smell of the exhaust and no black sooty exhaust either.

    So, emboldened by this, I thought I'd have a look inside the two units in order to see what I might learn about how these things work. (Yes, I realise that they are calibrated in an exact way, but how else to learn?

    Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.-img_4261.jpg

    Two things were evident: First, very dirty with 45 years of grime, and the 'resting ' position of the slide mechanism that regulated air flow (via the bellows) was very different from the 'new' old-stock altimeter.

    I cleaned the original altimeter and then chose to adjust the position of the 'bellows' so that the resting position mimicked (was similar to) the 'new' altimeter. (Basically, the original altimeter on the car was configured to allow much LESS air in to the injection pump than the 'new' altimeter, so I adjusted the original device to allow more air-flow )

    Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.-img_4254.jpg

    Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.-image1-1.jpg


    Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.-image1.jpg

    I don't know if these pictures properly convey enough, but suffice to say, the Altimeter and the airflow it allows seems to be critical to informing the injection system on the volume of fuel to distribute to the cylinders.

    I plan to write more on my adventures learning about the injection system, the guys at Nottingham Diesel are simply brilliant with advice and action on these pumps btw.
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    Recently my 505 (K-Jetronic injection) has developed a sticking throttle butterfly, in traffic the other day my wife had to turn off the main road, park up & switch off as the temperature was getting so high (she said she thought there were wisps of steam appearing). The idle was @about 1500 rpm, sometimes more, it would settle if you blipped the throttle but not every time. So idle speed can have a big influence on temperature in traffic it seems. Also want to check for a partially clogged Rad. Regards Rob


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    In the 80/s I did an engine swap on my 1st 504 cab and didn't swap the altitude corrector and it ran rough . Bruce at Bob Watsons was able to adjust it to run perfectly .I think he has just retired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julian c b View Post
    In the 80/s I did an engine swap on my 1st 504 cab and didn't swap the altitude corrector and it ran rough . Bruce at Bob Watsons was able to adjust it to run perfectly .I think he has just retired.

    Hi Julian, I attach two pages that the old main UK repairer for Peugeot UK (when they were doing these ages back) were kind enough to send me. They may be of use here, but, the sheer accuracy implied in working on these systems is what strikes me...

    Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.-peu1.jpg


    Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.-peu2.jpg

    Running a 504 Ti with different altimeter.-peu7.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodgriefmike View Post
    Hello, I don't know if this is of any use after a decade-plus, but I have been trying to fix a desperately rich-running engine on my injection 504 (XN2 1971cc) . Symptoms of black sooty exhaust and same colour spark plugs.

    The main diaphragm is OK so I eventually started investigating the Altimeter. I am lucky enough to have a 'new' old stock altimeter, which I could swop out for the original.

    The difference was astonishing! Smoother running engine and almost biblical sized reduction in the petrol vapour smell of the exhaust and no black sooty exhaust either.

    So, emboldened by this, I thought I'd have a look inside the two units in order to see what I might learn about how these things work. (Yes, I realise that they are calibrated in an exact way, but how else to learn?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_4261.jpg 
Views:	48 
Size:	90.7 KB 
ID:	101375

    Two things were evident: First, very dirty with 45 years of grime, and the 'resting ' position of the slide mechanism that regulated air flow (via the bellows) was very different from the 'new' old-stock altimeter.

    I cleaned the original altimeter and then chose to adjust the position of the 'bellows' so that the resting position mimicked (was similar to) the 'new' altimeter. (Basically, the original altimeter on the car was configured to allow much LESS air in to the injection pump than the 'new' altimeter, so I adjusted the original device to allow more air-flow )

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_4254.jpg 
Views:	51 
Size:	86.3 KB 
ID:	101376

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image1-1.jpg 
Views:	49 
Size:	88.2 KB 
ID:	101377


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	image1.jpg 
Views:	48 
Size:	83.3 KB 
ID:	101378

    I don't know if these pictures properly convey enough, but suffice to say, the Altimeter and the airflow it allows seems to be critical to informing the injection system on the volume of fuel to distribute to the cylinders.

    I plan to write more on my adventures learning about the injection system, the guys at Nottingham Diesel are simply brilliant with advice and action on these pumps btw.

    Thanks for posting the Service Bulletin pages.

    During the 6 month warranty period when my Ti was new, it went back six or seven times with a small "miss" at about 4200 RPM until they finally fitted a new injection pump. Each time it came back "fixed?" I checked the tune: plug gaps (.023"), the points (.016") and the static timing (4 degrees BTDC). I have always run the car with these settings since.


    Of course the supreme test (when tuned correctly) is to see if you can let the car run down (foot off accelerator) in 4th gear to nearly idle speed without any backlash/snatching happening in the drive train!
    The way to get rid of this snatching is to fine tune by trial and error (minute adjustments required) the position of the inlet butterfly.

    Good Luck.
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    The KF2 engines in the 404 were so much simpler (and probably polluted slightly more). Very easy to tune too, even without the factory 404/504 KF toolkit (which I now have). I have the factory 504 TI tuning pages from the workshop manual scanned somewhere, if anyone needs them.
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    Yes please Mike

  22. #22
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    If you want to get your injection motor running to perfection B+M Fuel Services can dyno tune it to perfection as they did with mine They know the KF system well .They are opposite Essendon Airport.

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    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    OK I will aim to do that Monday and put it up on Dropbox.
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    Until that's done, here is a teaser....
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    1000+ Posts Mike Tippett's Avatar
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    Ok they are on Dropbox now, so those of you who want access, send me a private message with your email address and I will give you access to the documents.
    1966 Peugeot 404 Coupé Injection in restoration NOW!
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