504 water pump pulley
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    504 water pump pulley

    I'm getting rid of that magnetic thing could be trouble on a hot day all ready had a prob and its stil cool. I've found an old 404 pulley it almost lines up. Has any one changed something like this? regards cane toad

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  2. #2
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I've been using 404 pulleys on my water pumps for the past 6 years. I use the late 404 pulley which has the same diameter as the 504 pulley and is lighter than the early small diameter 404 pulley (steel fan model).

    The only problem with using the late 404 pulley is that the 504/505 pump shaft is a bit too long. To fill in the gap between the nut and the pulley I use an old spigot bush. If you use an early 404 pulley the length is about right, but they spin the pump awfully fast unless you also fit a 404 crankshaft pulley and timing cover. I don't advise this because the 404 crankshaft pulleys are prone to cracking between the keyway and the slinger thread.

    Dave

    <small>[ 10 July 2003, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
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  3. #3
    Member alan_505's Avatar
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    Why go to all the trouble of replacing the pulley when you can lock up the magnetic clutch so that it is on all the time.

    Alan

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    alan_505:
    Why go to all the trouble of replacing the pulley when you can lock up the magnetic clutch so that it is on all the time.

    Alan
    ..because the water pump bearings last alot longer with the nice light 404 pulley hanging off the end rather than the great heavy magnetic pulley hanging on the end. The 404 pulley also looks alot nicer if you run an electric fan, like I do, rather than the noisy engine driven fan.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    alan_505:
    Why go to all the trouble of replacing the pulley when you can lock up the magnetic clutch so that it is on all the time.

    Alan
    do as dave says and throw the magnetic one away
    if you leave it on there locked up it drags HP away from the engine and you use more fuel
    engine fans are a vast waste of energy
    you could go all the way and do as CAT do and run an engine fan on oil pressure but they are a little too complicated to run on a car
    they actually run off the hydraulic pump and run thermostatically and computer controlled
    but for everyday cars i'd take the magnetic fan off and run an electric thermo fan with a shroud
    fans are a lot less effecient without a shroud believe me
    if you don't believe me ask a radiator guy
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  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    We had a huge argument on the Peugeot-L forum about this power drain thing...

    Some guy reckoned he never used any more than a half horsepower electric motor to run a huge fan... so why the claims of 10hp etc off an engine fan?

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    We had a huge argument on the Peugeot-L forum about this power drain thing...

    Some guy reckoned he never used any more than a half horsepower electric motor to run a huge fan... so why the claims of 10hp etc off an engine fan?
    It's simple. The guy did his calculations based on about 3000rpm or so where the power drain is negligible. If you calculate it for 5500 rpm it's about 7hp for a 504 plastic bladed fan. Since many people on the Peugeot-L forum don't know how to drive over 4000rpm, I'm not surprised.

    My main gripe against the engine fan is it destroys the free reving nature of the XN engines.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    On the subject of fans, I've sometimes wondered why the thermo magnetic fans weren't fitted to Peugeot 403's and 404's in Australia. Did Peugeot simply imagine we all lived in the tropics!

    Cheers

    Rod
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  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Ever heard the words 'new technology'?

    I don't know of any car fitted with a thermo fan control in 1960... and the 404 was released in 1959 in Europe.

  10. #10
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    We had a huge argument on the Peugeot-L forum about this power drain thing...

    Some guy reckoned he never used any more than a half horsepower electric motor to run a huge fan... so why the claims of 10hp etc off an engine fan?
    i have driven both 504's and 604's with fans locked
    the 604 coupling died on the way back from cobar one day and the car was like a slug to drive
    just wouldn't pull up hills in it's normal flighty fashion and the 504's that i have driven with locked fans were pathetic but once they were freed up it was a totally different car
    i even found that totally removing the fan from the 604 it was even better than having the viscous coupling working but not real good if you are doing a lot of town driving
    so to sum up my experience tells me that fans suck power
    my advice to those that have locked up fans is to remove them and take the car for a drive and notice the difference
    you will be suprised by the result
    that plus the saving in fuel it's worth doing IMHO
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    Ever heard the words 'new technology'?

    I don't know of any car fitted with a thermo fan control in 1960... and the 404 was released in 1959 in Europe.
    Well, Ray, I'm looking at my genuine Peugeot , first edition 404 workshop manual right now, and I can tell you that the 404 at least for some markets, came with a thermomagnetic fan even at that time.

    I'm not sure when it was introduced on the 403 (I no longer have the manual for it) , but it certainly figured on some of them. Replacement waterpump housings for them used to actually come with the necessary brush holder built in.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    For real?

    Well, I guess you're right... they think we live in the tropics. Which, of course, some of us do.

    Are you sure that's the first model of the 404 there, with the big grilles at the ends of the dash?

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    That;'s the one Ray. This is a real, first edition 404 manual for the XC (3 bearing) engined sedan, with the "big grills" at either end of the dash.

    It seems to actually have been published in 1961 (in English at least) - it bears the imprint "1st edition 12-61-500" on the back.

    In fact it makes no mention at all of the existence of waterpump without a magnetic fan! I'm pretty sure that the 403 had a thermo fan even before this though.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  14. #14
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    ok here you go
    this is straight from the genuine 403 workshop manual i have here just to let people know a little history

    "The magnetic clutch type fan has been assembled in series, since February 1959, as per following serial Nos :
    403 - 2.306.355
    403J - 2.607.216
    403L - 2.763.538

    in the installation part of the book it notes:

    "Five possible cases should be considered, according to the type of cylinder head

    1st On 403 prior to No 2.045.132
    the cylinderhead for 403 p/n 0201.19 has no boss at the place of installation of the thermo switch.
    It is strongly advised not to install a clutch type fan without replacing the cylinder head, since the wall is not thinck enough to allow filing the thermo switch No 467.895 - p/n 0242.03 joint face and tapping on a sufficient length"

    so there you go guys
    403's did have them in some cases
    as the heads changed slightly over the years with provision for extra castings in them they were able to be fitted with the thermo fans where as the early ones couldn't
    the only reason was that the thermo switch on the 403's was actually mounted into the head to activate the fan

    as to why we didn't get them in this country
    i put it down to we only ever got the basics here and even now we still don't get a lot of the pug models
    this is only due to the market
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Well... don't that beat all!

    I certainly never expected that to be the case. Was the boss on the casting of the early 404 waterpump housings then, the one for fitment of the connection?

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I've tried it on and it doesn't quite line up about 4 mm proud of the crank pulley, if I get the back of the pulley where the shaft goes through machined down 4mm it will line up OK, I think that will still leave enough meat for the key to work alright. To start with I put a couple of tack welds to join the two together, worked OK but made one hell of a racket must have been the little springy things moving around,Late model pulley same diameter and about half the weight must be easier on the pump bearings,might have trouble controlling wheel spin at the traffic lights with all the extra GGs regards cane toad

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I really doubt that the weight has that much impact on the bearings... belt loadings would have much more, I would have thought.

    You could probably have a nice aluminium one machined up from scratch for a reasonable price... oh, and the advantages are at revs, not wheelspin speeds.

  18. #18
    Tadpole
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    The air drag of an object moving in a straight line increases as the square of the speed but the drag of a rotating object like a fan increases as the cube of the speed. Thus the HP loss of a fan fixed to the water pump is really bad at exactly the time when you least need a fan.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Couldn't figure what that little appendage was on the bottom of the water pump casting. I looked through old spares, and a pump of a long gone really early 404 had the little loop cast in, must have had the option of magnetic clutch fan from very early on. Makes you realize how advanced they were in comparison to what was on the market at the time. regards, cane toad .

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    It seems the 403 was, in fact, the first production car in the world fitted with a thermo fan - see <a href="http://peugeot.mainspot.net/hist14.shtml" target="_blank">http://peugeot.mainspot.net/hist14.shtml</a>

    Cheers

    Rod
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  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger!
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    The 404 pulley was machined and fitted to the 504 pump it works really well,the motor turns over more readily on starting and idles a lot smoother, although it takes a little longer to warm up on cold mornings I'll feel a lot happier driving in the hot weather. regards, cane toad .

  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Have you removed the thermostat, or doesn't it work?

    You've got to get the engine up to temperature or you'll wear it out much more quickly.

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger!
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    No the thermostat is still in place and appears to be working OK. The car seems to warm up at about the same rate as the 404's without the electric fan, maybe a bit longer but not much. I know what you mean about wear, living in suburbia as we do, most of the trips are of quite short duration, lots of 5 minute dashes. Never gets up to ideal operating temperature, another curse of suburban life, that reminds me I have to mow the #^*()lawn. regards, cane toad

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