Peugeot Gearbox Oils-manual
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Peugeot Gearbox Oils-manual

    Hello all,
    It has occurred to me that I should have asked the members opinions on the correct grade of oil to put in manual P504 / 505 Gearboxes.

    As we know, Peugeot specify the same oil as would be used in the engine. I know of many Peugeot workshops that do just that. However, informed opinion elsewhere suggests that a normal gearbox grade (EP 80 or 90)is the only way to go.

    I am currently using a lightweight gearbox oil (75W) as specified by Penrite. I did have some concern over this original Peugeot specification, with regard to the onset of the noise in neutral as discussed in my earlier topic (P505 STI).

    If members are using the normal heavier grade of oil, what has been the effect on shift quality in cold weather, or when the oil is at ambient temperature anyway?

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    Thanks,
    Kim

  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    in any g/box a heavy grade oil when cold doesn't have a low enough viscosity index to feed into all the smaller parts of the box and in doing so makes cold gear changing very heavy and clunky.
    in turn this will eventually destroy your synchros which are prone enough to self destruction in a pug box with normal wear and tear with engine oil
    as i stated in the other thread i found that a mix of 50W grade oil and auto trans (which is around 15W grade) isn't a bad mix
    as all the gears are of a small nature in an car box and they spin at a fairly high rate they will tend to last longer with a grade of oil around the 30W-40W range as apposed to a differential which is a slower moving (gearbox and yes a diff is still classed as a g/box technically) and has larger gears it survives on a grade of around 80W-90W grade oil
    [quote]I am currently using a lightweight gearbox oil (75W) as specified by Penrite.<hr></blockquote>
    when oil is stated as lightwieght you have to look at the grade. 75W "lightwieght" is the same as normal 75W grade oil
    the higher the number ie 75W means it will take a higher temp for the oil to run like water basically and at normal operating temp a 75W grade oil will still be a heavy oil
    you wouldn't run engine oil in a diff or diff oil in an engine
    i realise that engine oil has additives in it so that it is classed as an angine oil to cope with carbon deposits as the like that an engine deposits into the oil. it's a pretty harsh enviroment in the sump but you won't have any trouble in running a mixture in your g/box as described above or in the other thread
    hope this helps
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    I always used standard engine oil (30-40W) in manual peugeot gearboxes (from 403's onwards) , in accordance with the specs. I've never had any problems with them, apart from selector shaft problems in an early 404 wagon, back in the late 60's.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  4. #4
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    It is best to use what Peugeot recommends--engine oil. I have always used just regular petroleum oil (such as Castrol or Mobil), but I have heard that synthethic engine oil (such as Mobil 1) works well too.

    I was once told that pure API GL-4/5 gear oil can damage the material that the BA7/BA10 synchronizers are composed of.

    Peugeot designed the synchros to function depending on a certain amount of drag from the fluid viscosity. Installing thicker (or thinner) fluid would likely affect how the synchros are able to function.

    -Joe

  5. #5
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Just to repeat... 75/90 gear oil wasn't available when Peugeot wrote the owners' manual...

    It is now, it protects the gears better, and it's exactly the same viscosity as the engine oil.

  6. #6
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Suggest you have a look at this site as I feel the research done by this guy can give a lot of answers to the urban myths and conspiracy theories that always seem to dominate debate regarding oils :p

    <a href="http://www.fernblatt.com/longhurst/engineoil_bible.html" target="_blank">http://www.fernblatt.com/longhurst/engineoil_bible.html</a>


    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    [quote]Originally posted by Alan S:
    <strong>Suggest you have a look at this site as I feel the research done by this guy can give a lot of answers to the urban myths and conspiracy theories that always seem to dominate debate regarding oils ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

    But this is only about engine oil, is it not?

  8. #8
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    It goes much deeper than that.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Oh? Right to the bottom of the sump?

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Mi16 Man's Avatar
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    Was reading a "Castrol Oil guide" stating the only 75/80W was to be used for Peugeots as they were a 'high pressure' gearbox. Am having troubles with gearbox whilst Sime Darby get their bum into gear and get some parts in. I have been waiting for a new clutch cable since November 01.

    Anyway, was asking the mechanic that it was/still is a pain to drive when cold so he has thrown in Castrol VMX 80 - what ever that does, I am not sure. In the same catalouge, this VMX 80 was recommended for BMW gearboxes and some Pug boxes.
    Says it is a lower pressure gearbox oil. Barring expansion due to heat, where does the pressure arise from in the gearbox???????? I am presuming that the oil is 'splash feed' and not driven by a pump.

    As mentioned above, the 'thinner' the oil, the better it would act in all conditions so am confused by the mechanic adding a thicker oil. As I mentioned it to them, it is the cleanest box around. That was the 4th change in 8000kms!
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  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    all oil as it gets warmer expands and that is where you will get some pressure
    one pug i once bought had 80W grade oil in it
    there was no way you could drive that car cold.
    i had to start the car at least 15mins before i needed to drive it of a morning so the thing could at least get some warmth into it
    the box had all new bearings all the way through it and was a really nice box after i changed the oil in it back to what i have stated before in this thread
    [quote]Just to repeat... 75/90 gear oil wasn't available when Peugeot wrote the owners' manual...
    It is now, it protects the gears better, and it's exactly the same viscosity as the engine oil.
    <hr></blockquote>
    75/90 can't have the same viscosity as 15/40
    viscosity as i was taught when i went to TAFE and learnt my trade was described as the runnyness (in simple terms) of the oil
    grab a jar and put water in it and give it a shake. what happens to the water ?
    do the same with honey and note the difference
    the shaking effect in a jar has about the same effect as oil in an average car g/box
    sorry ray i am not having a go but just stating what i have been taught and what i have learnt
    they didn't have synthetic oil around when dolomites were bieng made either but as everyone knows it is better to run than mineral oil in most cases but if you run it in a trumpy it will spit seals out on the oil filter and a few other places as for some reason it builds up pressure too quickly for them
    believe me i have seen it happen and not just to one of these daring pieces of engineering but to at least 4 different ones that i know of
    i'm just saying that just because something that wasn't around when something was made it doesn't mean that it might be good to run in it now
    once again ray please i am not "having a go" so please do not take offense
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

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    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Thanks all,
    I think I have opened up a real "pandora's gearbox". I have just read the Chris Longhurst article on oils. Much of it I was familiar with (I am an aeronautical engineer + hold Flight Engineers and Pilots licences). This does not make me the oracle - hence my question to all the Peugeotphiles out there.

    The view of august bodies such as the technical department of Penrite is that many overseas auto manufacturers specify oils which are suitable (climatically) for local (eg European) conditions. They refer to some 4WD manufacturers whose vehicles arrive in Australia with auto transmission fluid in the gearboxes, transfer cases etc. Apparently there have been premature failures as a result.

    Apparently, many early English makes also used engine oil in their gearboxes.

    In the absence of accepting Peugeot`s specifications, there still appears to be varying views. In the interim, I think I will stick with the 75W (whilst it is summer heat here)and until I have further work on the gerabox bearings. Unless another prevailing view is forthcoming??

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Ralph's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    I am currently using a 85W/140 in the 4 speed in my 504 at the moment. It had a lack of synchro on 3rd and 4th and this oil seems to quieten the box and stop the crunching of gears. I don't know how it will go in winter, I'll probably have to go to a lighter oil. Can any one suggest a suitable oil for a noisy box and what is the correct oil for the diff?

    Cheers,

    Ralph
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! MYT205's Avatar
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    Our GTi6 has the usual notchiness and lack of engagment when cold in 2nd gear. Would changing to a different oil make it easier to engage and get rid of some of the notchiness that is so common in the 6spds?

    Cheers

    Darren

  15. #15
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Well, pugrambo, I have had two independent lubrication experts tell me that 75/90 gear oil is the same viscosity as 15W 40 engine oil...

    They say it's true, why should I deny it?

  16. #16
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    [quote]Originally posted by Ray Bell:
    <strong>Well, pugrambo, I have had two independent lubrication experts tell me that 75/90 gear oil is the same viscosity as 15W 40 engine oil...

    They say it's true, why should I deny it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Maybe these lubrication experts smoke the same stuff as a well known Sydney based Peugeot expert!

    Dave
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  17. #17
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    It is true, diff oil is rated differently to engine oil. I think it was John Dymond from Penrite who told me that.
    I don't believe that heat build up in a gearbox would cause pressurisation given the way that Peugeot gear boxes leak!
    Regards, Graham Wallis

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