Newbie - 505 STI v GTI??
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Icon6 Newbie - 505 STI v GTI??

    Hi all,

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    My first post here after being an avid reader for a long time. Had a nice 504 until last year when I sold her to another enthusiast. I hope there's anothe pug in my future at some stage but have too many projects to get one right now (then again ya never know when the right car will pop up).

    While I know a bit about 504s, I know nothing of 505s. Can someone outline the basic similarities or differences between the sti and the gti and which is the better/sportier car? Am thinking of a 5 speed manual trans car. Did the sti have the metric wheels??

    Thanks,
    Greg.
    Canberra.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugo
    Hi all,

    My first post here after being an avid reader for a long time. Had a nice 504 until last year when I sold her to another enthusiast. I hope there's anothe pug in my future at some stage but have too many projects to get one right now (then again ya never know when the right car will pop up).

    While I know a bit about 504s, I know nothing of 505s. Can someone outline the basic similarities or differences between the sti and the gti and which is the better/sportier car? Am thinking of a 5 speed manual trans car. Did the sti have the metric wheels??

    Thanks,
    Greg.
    Canberra.
    in brief:

    sti's are mechanical injection, leaded fuel (pre 7/86) and metric wheels
    gti's are electronic injection, unleaded fuel (post 7/86) and inch wheels

    I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! 406_SV's Avatar
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    The Gti is the "sportier" of the two. Neither of them can really be called sporty though. They both share what is more or less the same 2.2l 4 cyl motor, but the Gti has electronic fuel injection (and the odd tweek here and there), while the Sti has mechanical fuel injection. The Gti has more power and torque than the Sti. Gti has 94kw and I'm not sure about the Sti - but it's lower than the Gti. I have heard however, the Sti develops peak torque at lower rpm's than the Gti, so it might suggest that the Sti may have more useable torque - I haven't driven an Sti to compare. The Gti also has a tighter suspension set up. Yes the Gti has the 15inch wheels, while the Sti has metrics (though, there are a few floating around with 14's I'm told). Finally, the Gti has a very cool looking rear lip spoiler which is DEFINITELY the key to its superior performance.

    Ps. From someone who owns a 3spd auto Gti - get the 5 speed manual. Much more fun!

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT
    sti's are mechanical injection, leaded fuel (pre 7/86) and metric wheels
    gti's are electronic injection, unleaded fuel (post 7/86) and inch wheels

    I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong
    Sorry pugrambo, slightly wrong...

    The GTi was released in Australia in mid 1985 alongside the STi, so it originally came out with the leaded engine. However, all 505 engines had hardened valve seats so they can all run happily on PULP, or on standard ULP with slightly retarded timing.

    Greg, may I inform you of some of your Executive options...

    There were two 505 Executives - STi and GTi. Badging was the same (simply "Executive" on the rear) but you can tell the differences by looking around. STi Executives had the same features as standard STis (K-jet mechanical injection, metric alloys, slightly softer suspension) but had a velour interior instead of the tweed wool. They may have come standard with a sunroof but I'm not sure. GTi Execs upgraded to L-jet EFI and 15" alloys, stiffer suspension, and had leather interior and sunroof standard. All Execs had electric windows front and rear, and were available in 3 spd auto or 5 spd manual (manuals are very rare!) and had different, more considerable front and rear bumpers to standard STis and GTis. These are also quite hard to source if you ever need one $$$. Most Execs are a two-tone silver and dark grey, however there are a few black ones lurking around.

    After about 1987, the Executive model was dropped and the Series 2 505 GTi was released which had the unleaded motor, a revised interior, and different grille, bumpers and taillights.

    Other standard 505 features across the range are power steering, air-con, 4 wheel disc brakes, and independant rear suspension. Some 505s came with limited slip diffs although it's hard to tell how many and which ones did. I'm sure I've forgotten a few things which others will fill in...

    Hope this helps you out, and welcome to Aussiefrogs Greg!

    Cheers,
    Richard
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! 406_SV's Avatar
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    I might just add a few things to what Silverexec wrote:
    - the series two 505 was released late in 1985 (december, I think) these first few had the series one motor (correct me if I'm wrong) and ran on leaded fuel. It was later in '86 when the series two's had the unleaded motor. It was at this time that the executive was discontinued.
    - Also, I think silverexec may have been refering to peter t, not pugrambo. ...poor guy didn't even post on this thread!!

  6. #6
    Tadpole
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    Icon7 505 sti v gti

    Wow!! Thanks heaps for all the info!!
    This forum is just excellent!!

    Looks like the 505 gti is the way to go. Any more comments on the 505 gti from owners or those in the Know???

    Greg.
    Canberra.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverexec
    Sorry pugrambo, slightly wrong...

    i don't think i have said anything regarding this thread yet
    3 x '78 604 SL

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugo
    Hi all,
    ...While I know a bit about 504s, I know nothing of 505s...

    Greg.
    Canberra.
    If you know a bit about 504's, then you also know a bit about 505's. The suspension, steering and drivetrain of the first 505's was most almost identical to the 504. To the untrained eye, if you were to put them both on a hoist, from underneath it would be hard to tell which one is which.
    2004 Clio Expression Verve 4sp auto -
    1984 Fuego GTX 5 speed (now a write off) -
    1976 504 GL auto (sold)

    French cars, Australian wine.

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    nJm
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    I like the GTi and in retrospect wish I had bought one instead of my GR. My main gripe with the GTi is the engine bay is stuffed full of pipes, meaning you need to either have amazingly small hands to get to the dissy cap, or pull the battery out etc.

    The GTi motor sounds pretty cool. Very distinctive sound, not at all like most 4cyl engines.

    Upgraded suspension is worth every penny. Watch out for worn steering racks, seems to be quite common on 505s these days. Also watch out for rear brake calipers that either don't work at all or lock on after the hand brake has been released. Very common and can take a lot of time and effort to get right.

    Can't think of anything else at the moment really. Rust around the rear window frame isn't unheard of, also under the rubber seal on the rear windscreen (on the top).
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  10. #10
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    Dont discount the STi mechanical injection off hand. It is a pig when not running right, but get someone who actually knows what they are doing tuning it, it is a very good system and very reliable as it is purely mechanical. STis seem to be a bit cheaper than an equivalent GTi these days as everyone wants a GTi over an STi - bargains can be had.

    Engines are like a lot of froggy stuff - a right royal pain in the arse to work on initially, but once a few "tricks" are learnt, easy as pie

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    In a perfect world all things being equal I'd take a GTI over STi as everyone's already said.....

    The STI and GTI are similar enough to just buy whichever you can ultimately get in better condition......the condition is more important in the long run than the fittings in this case

    When everything is working and tuned etc.....the STI and GTI feel pretty similar in performance regardless of their respective EFI systems......the GTI may have a quoted 90 something kw vs the STI with 80odd.......the Gti's are like midget/stunted/limp wristed KW or something and really it's just a number , It feels like a hardworking 70kw rather than 90odd

  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    As someone who has owned one Sti , and Two Gti's ill add:

    One of the differences that has yet to be noted in this thread is the Auto gearboxes. The S1 GTI was strictly a 3 Speed Auto. Whereas the S2 GTI was a four speed auto. Different people will tell you different things re the two of them , this is better due to this , that due to that... I currently drive a S1 Auto , which is for sale in the Cars for Sale section , and it goes very well.

    The comment below about them feeling a little gutless is somewhat correct too. Though depends on what car your coming from. A MI16 405 and yes you will notice the difference. A 504 , then its fast.

    My Sti only had power windows in the front as well , manual in the rear.

    All in all , id have a GTI over an STI every day of the week ...

    Hope this helps in some way

    Regards
    Phil ( TestySpice)

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    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TestySpice
    The S1 GTI was strictly a 3 Speed Auto. Whereas the S2 GTI was a four speed auto. ( TestySpice)
    Actually I'm pretty sure the very early leaded series 2 (December 1985 complianced) had a 3 speed auto.

    Dave
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
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    1994 106 Xsi
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    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TestySpice
    A 504 , then its fast.

    ( TestySpice)
    There's usually precious little difference in performance between a good manual carby 504 and a manual early 505 GTI, although on the automatic models the difference is quite noticeable. A 505 STI or unleaded GTI is punchier below 3000rpm than a 504.

    A good 504TI or a moderately modified carby square port 504/505 with 4.11 diff will eat them all.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 19th January 2004 at 06:20 PM.
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    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugo
    Can someone outline the basic similarities or differences between the sti and the gti
    The late STI (approx Autumn 1984 onwards) with 150mm wide metric wheels (as opposed to 135mm) has GTI spec springs and struts.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 19th January 2004 at 06:31 PM.
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  16. #16
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    There's usually precious little difference in performance between a good manual carby 504 and a manual early 505 GTI, although on the automatic models the difference is quite noticeable. A 505 STI or unleaded GTI is punchier below 3000rpm than a 504.
    I owned an Mi16 before my 504. I don't find it slow at all. In fact the performance never ceases to surprise me. And it amazes other people too. It goes so much better than you'd think a 2 litre 70kW pushrod four in a 1200kg car should.

    A good 504TI or a moderately modified carby square port 504/505 with 4.11 diff will eat them all.
    I'm working on it!!

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
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    So which are the pushrod motors and which OHC? Is everyone sure its not a Renault motor? Help.
    A friend is SA has a 504 TI motor in his 505 (originally diesel} and its punts along nicely.

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    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    i don't think i have said anything regarding this thread yet
    Whoops! Sorry about that, I did mean Peter T.

    Pugrambo, I guess I must have had you on my mind for some reason...
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    The late STI (approx Autumn 1984 onwards) with 150mm wide metric wheels (as opposed to 135mm) has GTI spec springs and struts.
    Yes very true, negative camber front struts, making running 195/*** size tyres a pain on occasions, my old car had this problem with 185/*** tyres you are fine.

    Front springs on my *normal* (ie NOT neg camber) 1983 STi are actually the GTi front springs, could be a one-off but who knows??? They have one or two red paint marks whatever it is, I looked about a 6 months ago.

    But now the '83 has the neg camber etc off the later '84 STi/GTi. Beeuuudifull

    As for steering Racks as mentioned above, my car is now going off the road for some new rack boots. Cheaper than a new rack. And much better to drive.

    Overall I love the STi, yes its qwerky and may not on paper be as powerful as the GTI it is still a lovely car to drive. Although I would now get a GTi simply for the injection setup in case of later "playing" with the engine some may dislike it but I love the torque downlow from only 4cyl and THAT exhaust note.

    But I'm almost at the end of my patience with the car now , with a newish gearbox, clutch etc and now rack boots. It still has drivetrain noise quite badly. Its overheating again because, and I don't know why the fan wont cut in?? (Thank god for the AIRCON fan that keeps it at normal temp when turned on) The dreams are fading slowly I think I might save for a 405 or 306, but they probably aren't as fun to try and work on.

    Jono
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverexec
    Whoops! Sorry about that, I did mean Peter T.

    Pugrambo, I guess I must have had you on my mind for some reason...

    that has me worried now
    i hope you were thinking of something that was in my favour
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  21. #21
    WLB
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    The earlier S2 GTIs had a 3-speed auto. I've got one. Can anyone tell me why it won't kick down properly? It shifts into top very quickly and stays there. It sometimes kicks down when needed, but usually not. Driven as an auto, it's very disappointing. Driven as a manual, it's quite brisk.

    Warwick.

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    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman
    So which are the pushrod motors and which OHC? Is everyone sure its not a Renault motor? Help.
    The GR, SR and SLi motors are the pushrod ones. The SLi being an injected version.

    The STI and GTI have the SOHC engine, although early STI models sold in North America only actually had the SLi pushrod motor.

    The SOHC engine is as much a Peugeot motor as a Renault motor. Peugeot and Renault jointly own the factory in Douvrin which made these engines (and also the PRV V6, which has a similar head design to the SOHC four). As far as I know this factory now makes the current range of Peugeot/Renault V6 engines.

    Dave
    Last edited by davemcbean; 20th January 2004 at 05:30 PM.
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  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger!
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    [QUOTE=crosspug]

    But I'm almost at the end of my patience with the car now , with a newish gearbox, clutch etc and now rack boots. It still has drivetrain noise quite badly. Its overheating again because, and I don't know why the fan wont cut in?? (Thank god for the AIRCON fan that keeps it at normal temp when turned on) The dreams are fading slowly I think I might save for a 405 or 306, but they probably aren't as fun to try and work on.

    If the fan is not turning on when the motor is getting hot it is probably a blocked radiator as the usual set up (I don't know these cars in particular) is temp gauge sender is in the head and thermo switch for fan in radiator. So if the radiator does not get hot because there is not eneough flow the fan does not turn on and overheating results.

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crosspug
    If the fan is not turning on when the motor is getting hot .....
    Which model is your 505?
    2004 Clio Expression Verve 4sp auto -
    1984 Fuego GTX 5 speed (now a write off) -
    1976 504 GL auto (sold)

    French cars, Australian wine.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    If the fan is not turning on when the motor is getting hot it is probably a blocked radiator as the usual set up (I don't know these cars in particular) is temp gauge sender is in the head and thermo switch for fan in radiator. So if the radiator does not get hot because there is not eneough flow the fan does not turn on and overheating results.
    Thanks Sherman,

    I've had this trouble before, seems to come and go. Just a matter of drain fluid, check connecters and pray I'm afraid. Tried to clean the radiator (out of car) many times but nothing of value seems to come out. Now you see why I've lost patience, I've tried to fix so many times.

    I've never had this problem with my other 505 that I had, but that had a Viscous clutch type fan (ie standard fan) while this has the electric thermo.

    In fact this is what I am doing RIGHT now, damn hot on my concrete patch out the back I really need a shed, or shade of some sort.

    Jono
    1989 BX16Valve

    "Resting" 1983 505 STi

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