504 Ti New engine won't idle.
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 504 Ti New engine won't idle.

    I just had a new engine put in my 504 Ti and a new clutch.

    When driving it's running nicely, really smooth, incredibly quiet compared to the old blown motor, but it just won't idle!

    When driving from cold it will just idle, hovering below 1000rpm, really struggling and you can tell it's about to die.

    Once you've been driving for awhile and it's warmed up it basically refuses to idle, stalling whenever you come to a stop.

    I'm pretty confident the motor is fairly good, given it's driving behaviour, it's just this idling issue.

    My old engine would idle at just over 1000rpm, and when I'm sitting at lights with the new motor if I squeeze the throttle to just over 1000rpm it is fine, so am I right in thinking this is purely a result of poor idle configuration or a deeper problem?

    I tried to adjust the idle speed by turning the screw on the left and at the front of the big intake plenum/chamber/whatever, it was very stiff but once turned either way it had no effect on the idle speed.

    I have had a look the workshop manual posted on 504.org but it seems to mention several different ways to adjust the idle.

    What am I doing wrong :/

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    Had anyone got the definitive idle adjustment on a Ti motor?

    I'm rather stressed out by this, having taken along time to get the money together as a student, I'm loving driving it, I just hope this problem can be easily solved.

  2. #2
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    have i sent you a copy of the TI workshop manual ?
    if not i'll try to attach them here for you and maybe others may find it helpful
    without seeing the engine and knowing what has and hasn't been done to it it is hard to put my finger on what exactly is the problem with it
    cold idle should be around 1200-1300rpm
    warm idle should be around 950-990rpm
    i'd say that if your cold idle is below 1000rpm as you say then your enrichener is out of adjustment
    the idle speed screw on the throttle body is a never touch setup
    now that you have touched it you are going to have to reset it back to spec and then work on the car from there
    i tried to attach the file but it's too big
    let me know if you need a copy of it and i'll email it to you
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    If you could email me the manual that would be great.

    I am now seriously regretting touching the screw. How difficult will it be to reset,I am slightly lacking in tools and experience.

    Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

  4. #4
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    If you could email me the manual that would be great.

    I am now seriously regretting touching the screw. How difficult will it be to reset,I am slightly lacking in tools and experience.

    Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

    let me know your email addy so i can attach and send the pages off to you
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  5. #5
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    [email protected]

    I had a look at the manual on 504.org and adjusted the screw that sits on top of the throttle butterfly/part where the throttle cable ends, and that seemed to bump the idle up slightly.

    I took it for a drive and it only stalled once, when stopping it would hover below 1000rpm slightly, then lift to around 1000, seemingly steady.

    I'm still not 100% happy with it, hopefully the manual can help me out.

    Cheers.

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    I would put my money on a mixture issue. It would have been adjusted for a worn motor, and now needs to set to a different (probably leaner) setting for the new healthy motor. Assuming its not a case of a "tight" engine, but I've never had them that tight in all the motors I have built, though I do adjust the idle up a couple of hundered revs for the first few hundered Ks. But it would have to be seriously tight (ie something not right) for it to be stalling at 900 rpm.

    If it is running overly rich (what do the plugs look like?) its not good for a running in engine as the extra fuel washes oil off the bores and upsets the proper bedding in of the rings.

  7. #7
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    [email protected]

    I had a look at the manual on 504.org and adjusted the screw that sits on top of the throttle butterfly/part where the throttle cable ends, and that seemed to bump the idle up slightly.

    I took it for a drive and it only stalled once, when stopping it would hover below 1000rpm slightly, then lift to around 1000, seemingly steady.

    I'm still not 100% happy with it, hopefully the manual can help me out.

    Cheers.

    email has been sent
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  8. #8
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    Thanks pugrambo, much appreciated.

    It's not a 'new' motor as such, I bought it with both the block and injection gear.
    The injection is stamped 74, a year older than the last motor, stamped 75.

    It does sound like a mixture problem.

    I think I'm going to leave it to the person who installed it and wait til I see him next week when I collect the old motor.

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    Thanks pugrambo, much appreciated.

    It's not a 'new' motor as such, I bought it with both the block and injection gear.
    The injection is stamped 74, a year older than the last motor, stamped 75.

    It does sound like a mixture problem.

    I think I'm going to leave it to the person who installed it and wait til I see him next week when I collect the old motor.
    the mixture problem as such is controlled by the enrichener for cold and hot running
    the enrichener is coolant temp control
    you will see the enrichener under the manifold log attached to the rear of the injection pump with 4-5 hoses running from it
    there are also vaccuum hoses attached to it as well
    at the bottom end of it will be a rod with two nuts on it which react on a lever from the injection pump
    this lever controls a swash plate in the pump to control how much fuel is injected into the engine as per the temp the engine is running at
    all very simple in reality
    but i would say that the adjustment on the enrichener is where your problem lies
    you can call it an auto choke if you like as it has the same effect as a choke on a carby if that makes things a little simpler for you
    the injection pump iteself is like a piston hydraulic pump and the swash plate in a pump controls how much oil is delivered
    the TI pump and plate work in the same way except we are using fuel and the delivery controls mixture
    cold running = richer mixture = high idle 1200-1300rpm
    normal running = normal mixture = normal idle = 950-990rpm
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default KF injection

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    I would put my money on a mixture issue. It would have been adjusted for a worn motor, and now needs to set to a different (probably leaner) setting for the new healthy motor.
    My 404 Kugelfischer manual from Peugeot indicates that when the 404 KF engines were new (or newly rebuilt) they were equipped from the factory with a 0.5 mm thick washer under the stop for the richness adjustment (operated by the thermostatic unit). I quote from Page 1306 B of manual 540E (404 Injection):

    "Petrol injection pumps are fitted with a .5 mm thick plain washer (4) installed under stop screw (2) for richness lever (1). This washer is used to give extra richness to the mixture during the first 600 miles (1000 km)."

    I'd imagine that this situation exists for the 504 TI as well. It does seem that a new engine, according to Peugeot, needs a richer, not poorer mixture.

    As an aside, it amazes me to see how few of the 404 Injection cars I've seen over the past 25 years actually have had this 0.5 mm washer removed. It blows fuel economy big-time, not to mention accelerating wear on the bores. I suppose that's why Peugeot specified it on the 404 - to bed in the rings over the first 1000 km.

    Another thing to check is whether the bypass air valve on the throttle body (that the adjustment screw resides in) is clean. To do that, you'd have to remove the screw entirely and clean the bypass with a pipe cleaner soaked in solvent. Blocked air bypass tubes were a common problem in the 404 KF, which causes an erratic idle.

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