BA7 or BA10?
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Thread: BA7 or BA10?

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    BA7 or BA10?

    A firend of mine is looking at a 505 GR fitted with a BA7 gearbox. Any thoughts on the comparative merits of the BA10 and the BA7.

    Cheers

    Rod

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  2. #2
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Good points of BA10:
    -lower and slightly closer ratios than BA7, so acceleration is much improved (probably the biggest performance improvement I've made to my 504)
    -it's big and can take alot more torque than the BA7, although this isn't necessary for a 2 or 2.2 litre engine.

    Bad points of BA10:
    -notchy gearshift. the synchromesh is very stiff and weak, which combined with the standard vague early 505 gearshift (which has too much leverage in my opinion) can lead to people becoming frustrated and forcing the gear shift too hard which can break the spring clips on the synchonizers or worse, and can cause chunks of metal to fall in between the gears, resulting in catastrophic gearbox failure.

    Good points of BA7:
    -nice light gearshift because the synchromesh works much more smoothly, so it is easier to select gears and people are less likely to put too much force on the synchronizers
    -shares alot of common internal parts with the cheap as chips 4 speed, meaning that if you break something, a good gearbox specialist can usually fix it by canabizing a 4 speed box (unless it's something in the 5 gear section that breaks).
    -has slightly taller 5th gear than BA10 (0.82:1 as opposed to 0.84:1)

    Bad points of BA7:
    -gap between second and third (as with 4 speed)
    -bearings are not as big as BA10, so is more likely to wear out bearings leading to excess gear movement and play, and thus excess wear (mostly occurs if driven most of the time in an indirect gear, like 5th). If the gearbox starts to get noisy, then use 4th as much as possible until you can pull the gearbox down and replace the bearings or whatever.
    -like all Peugeot gearboxes if the gearshift is forced, spring clips can break on the synchonizers or worse (but having such a light gearshift, it is not often forced).

    With any type of gearbox it is a good idea to replace the little needle roller bearing between the input and output shafts. In 5 speed gearboxes especially, this little bearing gets alot of work, and when it dies it can cause expensive damage to the hardening on the shafts or worse.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  3. #3
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Basically, both gearboxes are good if well cared for. I think modifying the gearshift to give it less leverage, by adjusting pivot positions, lengths underneath is a good idea. I added 2 inches to the length of the lever which hangs don below the gear lever, which made it feel much more like the normal 504 4 speed (some transission tunnels may not have enough room for this extra lever length). Alternatively another pivot ball could be welded onto the lever that hangs out the side of the gearbox, to lessen its effective length, which would give the same effect as the above modification.

    I think (but am not sure) that later 505s, like GTI's and Series two's had a different gear shifter with shorter throws. I've only ever driven series 1 505s and they all have shocking gearshifts compared with the 504 4 speed. I really HATE driving these cars with a stock gearshift, because they are NOT enjoyable to drive.

    Using Mobil 1 in a BA10 helps the synchromesh action alot, and makes the gearshifting alot lighter, although not as light as a BA7.

    With both types of gearboxes, it is a good if you can test the gearbox in a car before buying it, because if the synchromesh is worn out you are up for BIG $$$$$.

    Even for a 4 speed, I paid about $500 for both sets of synchromesh over 10 year ago. Think you might be up for twice that figure on a BA10 these days.

    Another advantage of a BA7 5 speed is that you can probably just buy a few cheap 4 speeds for "spare" synchromesh (although I'm not 100% sure that it fits, but I'm pretty sure).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, some of the bigger bearings in these gearboxes can cost more than $60 EACH which can be expensive if you have to replace them all. Fortunately, the bearing that goes most often is the little needle roller which is also one of the cheapest bearings. Change it as a matter of course if the gearbox is pulled apart. It's worth it.

    Yet another advantage of the BA7 5 speed is that you should be able to just use bearings from a good second hand 4 speed, although I'd definitely buy a brand new needle roller bearing.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  5. #5
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Oh, and the bearing on the 5th gear shaft on the BA7 is quite small and can sometimes go, and obviously you can't get one of these froma 4 speed, so it would also be a good idea to replace that bearing as a matter of course.

    Some would say that it's a good idea to change all the bearings on a BA7 5 speed as a matter of course, so a few 4 speeds lying around could save alot of money.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  6. #6
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    On the subject of 4 speed BA7 boxes, providing the oil is regularly topped up the bearings last very well because they are driven in 4th gear most of the time, so only the two big bearings are under load most of the time. Unfortunately, if the oil is not regularly topped up, they can run very low on oil because they leak out the hole in the bottom where the gearshift mechanism comes out (bad design), which doesn't do the bearings or anything else much good. This would be the most common problem with the 4 speed. Many people don't top them up enough. They can break spring clips on the synchro too, if forced. I've pulled apart a couple of 4 speeds with signs of very heavy handed usage. One even had a twisted synchro cone support frame where a friend of a friend had tried to force the thing into first gear when the clutch had run out of fluid.

    Fortunately both the 5 speed boxes have the gearshift mechanism coming out through the side, so the only oil they leak is what comes out between the seems or past the oil seals front and rear (which are also a good idea to replace, as well as putting good quality goo between all the alloy housings when the gearbox is reasembled).

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    ...and the BA10 will not fit a wagon unless you make up a different gearbox mounting.
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Dave,

    thanks so much for that wonderful dissertation on Peugeot gearboxes. Worthy of publication I reckon!

    I've saved it for posterity.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  9. #9
    nJm
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    So have I

    I'm not sure if I have a BA7 or BA10, but it does have a very light, easy action so I'll assume its a BA7 5.

    Only thing on mine is:
    *it can be quite hard to get it into 2nd smoothly, especially when its cold. It always feels like its gently grinding against something.

    *When ever you change gears, if you have a window down you can hear a funny rattle comming from under the car as you change gears

    other than that though, its a very easy 'box to drive, although the stick is a bit longer than i'm used to and I hate the gearknob blush

    <small>[ 06 June 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  10. #10
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Rod Hagen:

    thanks so much for that wonderful dissertation on Peugeot gearboxes. Worthy of publication I reckon!
    Rod,

    No worries. I thought I'd better say as much as possible, rather than keep responding to further questions on the same subject. If anyone asks a similar question again we can just dig up this thread again. There would be plenty of Peugeot mechanics which could give alot more detail than I have, and I hope they do, but alot of them are not on the net.

    Nick,

    If your gearshift is light and your car is a 1983 model then I'm pretty sure it's a BA7. I think they stopped using the BA10 on the 2 litre engine some time in 1982 (late 1982?).

    Try changing the oil to Mobil 1 or Mobil Syth S semi-sythetic. This might help your second gear. It sounds like the synchro is having trouble keeping up with the job when it's cold. This is not uncommon. Be very careful to change very gently when cold, to help the synchro last. If the synchro gets worn then it will start to grind even when warm and then you are due for new synchro, or you can pull the gearbox apart and turn the synchroniser around (sometimes works), or maybe you could use a synchroniser from a 4 speed. Anyway, try your best to avoid this being necessary.

    As I said, I think the series 2 has a better gearshift with shorter shifts and a nicer gearknob. It might be worth checking at one of the wreckers to see if this is true and if so I think it would be a good idea to use one of those gearshifts. They're usually not difficult to change. Just remove the centre console and the gearshift cover plate and it will be all pretty obvious how it comes out, although double check that the series 2 gearshift will fit a series 1 OK first. The hardest job will be popping the gear selector rods of the gearshift (they're held on by friction and sometimes break when removing them, but they don't cost much new).

    The "rattle" you hear as you change gears is probably just the sound of the gearbox changing gears internally. On most RWD cars this is easy to hear when the window is down. On FWD cars the firewall insulation and engine noise probably damps this noise out.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  11. #11
    nJm
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    thanks Dave,

    well, whilst my car is registered as an 1983 505, it turns out it was actually build in March 1982....

    obviously took a while to sell it? Anyway, I'll watch for the synchro on 2nd.

    Would an after market gearknob fit on the Pug's stick? I just find the golf club shape a bit strange (although I'm getting quite used to it).

    thanks again wink
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  12. #12
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    nJm
    [QB]
    Would an after market gearknob fit on the Pug's stick? I just find the golf club shape a bit strange (although I'm getting quite used to it).

    QB]
    Yeah they're disgusting aren't they? Most after market knobs should fit although you may need to put a little silastic in some of them, push them on and then leave them overnight to set.

    The standard gearknob will be a little hard to pull off (unless it's been taken off alot before), because it's held on by barbs. Be careful to hold the lever as you pull on the knob to avoid causing any damage to anything. Twist the knob back and forth as you remove it.

    On my 504 I use a chromed lever from an early 504 which has a thread on it, which is great, because the knob just screws on and off, but isn't loose.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  13. #13
    nJm
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    ironically, my car has a brand new gearknob on it - it was needed to pass for road worthy (the old one had split in half and was held together with sticky tape)

    I'll have a look at it on the weekend. So should it just pull off? I tried it once but was too paranoid to pull harder than I was incase I did something to the gearstick

    <img src="http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0KwAAAKsO5j9J!Oenj2OTqeQ7JYQP***2uQunz45643YDEpuvz tnr!3T!WnLM2FUQtpaqdHIBZ2M/interior.jpg" alt=" - " />

    its appaling that Peugeot still even make them - mine is actually an entirely new knob - has a rough edge and everything!

    <small>[ 06 June 2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    nJm:
    thanks Dave,

    well, whilst my car is registered as an 1983 505, it turns out it was actually build in March 1982....
    This is pretty common with 505's, Nick. You'll often find a substantial difference between the French manufacturers plate (on the front top crossbeam) and the Australian ADR plate. Both of my 505 sLi's had a French plate dated with the same month in mid 1985 , but one was first sold here in 1987 and the other in late 1986. Despite the "common" build date, the 1987 car was clearly finished off at a later date (various modernisations to the trim etc).

    Essentially I suspect that the French plate is based on the time when the body came out of the factory, and the later Aus plate is when it was finally put together in Australia.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Yep BA 10 cost about 600 bucks it apparently stronger than BA7 and is rarish if you spit it not! cheap BA seven are plentiful and cheap 250 bucks. You could spit to BA7s and still be in front! that if you dont mind the labor. i say it worth in just for the fun of not having to be to careful. cheers!

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Isn't that the other way around?

  17. #17
    nJm
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    That's what I thought as well.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Which bit the prices or the strength?

  19. #19
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    AlsPug504:
    Which bit the prices or the strength?
    The prices

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Fiveo r u from melbourne if so were are you getting BA10 from??

    anyone else from melbourne know?

    Al

  21. #21
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    AlsPug504:
    Fiveo r u from melbourne if so were are you getting BA10 from??

    anyone else from melbourne know?

    Al
    I'm from Sydney. The BA7 is usually more expensive ($700-$1500) because it is in higher demand for these reasons:

    -they wear out more often
    -they are fitted to more cars
    -they are easiest to fit to station wagons
    -the synchro has a nicer action and so they're more popular for 5 speed conversions for the 504
    -parts are cheaper, so people like them for this reason too.

    The 2 litre (1980-1982 505) BA10 is in less demand (and thus often sells for less because):

    -they don't often break unless the gearshift is abused
    -they don't fit wagons unless a special gearbox mount is made
    -their synchromesh action isn't as nice as BA7
    -parts are more expensive, which can discourage people from reparing them, when they are damaged

    I bought my BA10 for $400, but I had to buy the entire 1980 505 to get it (which is the cheapest way to buy any Pug 5 speed).

    The turbo diesel BA10 may be more expensive, because there are less of them in Australia, than the 2 litre carby version.

    Dave

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    Thanks for your help Dave! I did not relise you guys were talking BA7 5 as opposed to 4 Also I have been chasing the turbo disel BA10 5 hence my quote.

    Thanks Al

  23. #23
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    AlsPug504:
    Thanks for your help Dave! I did not relise you guys were talking BA7 5 as opposed to 4 Also I have been chasing the turbo disel BA10 5 hence my quote.

    Thanks Al
    No worries. Yeah the 4 speed BA7's are dirt cheap, even free sometimes. I've got about 6 or 7 lying about, although ones to suit the diesel are less plentiful.

    Dave

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