306 Gti6 handling part II
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Default 306 Gti6 handling part II

    Hi guys,

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    Ok I don't even know where to start....well here goes.

    As suggested I took my car to a suspension shop who checked it out and didn't find anything untoward. Lincoln, I showed the shop about what you said about the A arm pivot possibly being set incorrectly. They didn't know what exactly you meant and said something about the pivots being the bushes and being non-adjustable. I had to go to work so couldn't watch the shop when they did it so I couldn't see whether the wheels dropped like you said Lincoln, but the shop mechanic didn't seem sure what you meant by the wheels dropping.

    I also took them alignment settings that were posted and they told me that the only thing that can be adjusted in the gti6 (or at least my one) was toe. Camber/caster etc were all fixed. I rang my mechanic who's a pug specialist and he said the same thing about the alignment being fixed except for toe in/out.

    They checked out the suspension and said nothing was worn out and all the arms were straight and not bent or anything.

    Anyway, they adjusted it for toe..they said it was running slightly high toe in at the front and they reduced that. I took it for a short drive and turn in was definitely better but not by a massive amount. Another quirky thing..which I noticed before and after the alignment is that there is better turn in into left hand corners than right hand corners.

    When you say the A arm can be set incorrectly, what exactly do you mean..like do you mean the actual wheel alignment settings or? Also do some gti6's come with fully adjustable settings?? Cos apparently my one (late 98' model) is only adjustable for toe.

    The shop also suggested that Koni shocks in the rear would improve turn in. They said that though my rear shocks weren't worn or anything, they said that since the car had done 45000 kms, factory shocks start to go around then and the car's handling slowly decreases.... The shocks they suggested were Koni 87-2601L and 87-2601R on the Front left and right respectively and Koni 26-1487's on the rear.

    One thing you said Lincoln keeps nagging at me that something isn't quite right like you suggested..and that is the ride is a little harsh. Not terrible, but still not exactly supple. I remember you saying that when your car had the problems it resulted in understeer AND a harsher ride..

    My biggest problem is I don't have another one to compare to. If there's anyone in the Adelaide area who has a gti6 or a a s16/xsi, please contact me if you don't mind helping me out. If you're not keen on letting me drive your car, I don't mind at all even if you take my car for a drive so you can tell me the differences.

    Thanks for the help and advice everyone, I'm sure everything will all be worth it when I get the thing sorted out!

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    btw I managed to obtain the official alignment settings from the dealer but only for the front settings:

    Engine code: RFS
    H1: 145mm
    toe: 1 +- 0.5mm
    camber:-0'25 +- 30'
    castor: 3deg30' +- 30'
    pivot angle: 11deg15' +- 30'

    Anyway, I'm going to take the gti6 for a good drive thru the hills tomorrow so will let you all know how it performs post-alignment (or should I say post-toe in adjustment....).

    cheers,

  3. #3
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    Pug shockers worn out at 45000k's - I highly doubt that!

  4. #4
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew D
    Pug shockers worn out at 45000k's - I highly doubt that!
    i replaced the original ones in the Mi-16 i had at around 160k only because i was told they were leaking
    i never got to see them though even when i asked to so i will never know
    i replaced a pair of original fronts in a 604 once because one was clunking at 230k
    they last a lot longer than 45k that's for sure unless the car you have has been carry big loads in the rear of it all it's life
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Just wondering, thinking out loud, if your suspension seems to be as Peugeot designed it, your driveline is ok, tyres???

    have you tried changing the front tyres to the rear and rear to front?
    Or different tyres altogether. Not sure but did you mention you had P6000's? Are the tyre pressures the same front and rear? 36PSI cold pressure. Is it using the Servo guage or your guage?

    Reason im asking is that badly matched tyres (or wrong pressures) can make the car feel like there is something totally wrong.
    My friend was testing the bike yesterday at Eastern Creek he hopes to ride in this years racing series (Super Production I think). After 5 laps he came in disgusted with the bike. At 3 pm he decided to check the tyre pressures. 26PSI front, 12 PSI rear. Once 37PSI was restored the smile returned.

    Im fishing as to what the problem could be. I hope that helps to narrow the problem down.
    My 306 was by no means a harsh car to drive. But that is a relative statement. What are you comparing it to?
    the 306GTI6 was def harsher than my VX on FE2 suspension (Holden sports suspension). But comparable to Clio Sport, and a lot more refined than some 4 cyl cheaper japanse cars like Pulsar when driven sedately.

    Good luck.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! J4RS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    btw I managed to obtain the official alignment settings from the dealer but only for the front settings:

    Engine code: RFS
    H1: 145mm
    toe: 1 +- 0.5mm
    camber:-0'25 +- 30'
    castor: 3deg30' +- 30'
    pivot angle: 11deg15' +- 30'

    Anyway, I'm going to take the gti6 for a good drive thru the hills tomorrow so will let you all know how it performs post-alignment (or should I say post-toe in adjustment....).

    cheers,
    #@!!??$#@.!!!!!....... They must have changed something in THE MATRIX..


  7. #7
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    If they loosened the whole strut assembly and put it back together again properly then it should now be OK. But by the sounds of it they did not do this, they just had a good look at it.

    I don't believe that A Arm is only a bushing, but it's a hybrid type design that pivots like a hinge. This hinge can be set incorrectly. I'm the most mechanically adept, so perhaps you can give my mechanic a buzz, Paul Vassallo on 02 9817 2134. Paul is a Peugeot God that most of us on AF use here in Sydney.

    Ask if he give you a briefing on Lincoln and Tonia's GTi6 and he should be able to explain the problem to you. Also explain your symptoms and see what he thinks.

    Our GTi6, understeered and crashed over bumps as well. Hitting it's bumpstops quite often.

    - Lincoln
    - Lincoln

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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts U Turn's Avatar
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    Hi all, my problemís solved! I canít thank everyone enough for all the help! The problem was simply a combination of incorrect toe alignment and tyre pressures. After the suspension shop set the toe alignment to the correct values it felt a lot better and understeer on turn in was reduced but understeer was still significantly high enough to not feel good. After reading tekkieís post on tyre pressures I thought I should double check it..even though it wasnít long ago that I set the tyre pressures (36 psi all round) at your usual run of the mill servoí. Stupidly, I never bothered checking it again because looking at the tyres the pressures looked fine, and my experience with my previous car was I could only notice such significant change in driving when there were massive differences in tyre pressure (like the example of tekkieís mateís bike).

    Anyway after checking tyre pressures at the BP servo with the electronic pressure gauges with tyres cold and it showed the fronts were 37 and the rears 35. Not much variation right? Thatís what I thought. So I adjusted it to 36ís again all around. The result, heaps better..only slight understeer on turn in, and that was going in at quite a speed and easily corrected by lifting off the throttle, though still not quite enough lift off oversteer to be useful pointing into the corner. So next day went back and checked pressures which still showed 36ís Ďround. So I changed it to 36 Front and 37 Rear and went for a fang and perfect now (to how I prefer it) very sharp turn in, and if my entry speed is too silly then the following understeer is easily corrected by lifting off the throttle and brake balancing. There is a reasonable amount of lift off oversteer but the feedback is so perfect that Iíve already corrected for the oversteer using the steering before Iíve even consciously realised it! So much so that I became confident enough to do that on 55 km/hr corners doing more than twice the suggested speed. So much fun! The P6000ís grip ok (havenít tried other tyres on the gti6 yet) but they make a LOT of noise doing so. They start mild squealing even when itís not even close to the limit, and the squealing just gets louder and louder if I push it but itís still very progressive. I have noticed that they do need to warm up quite a bit before theyíre decent.

    Thanks for the input Lincoln, I wonít have to disturb Paul V just yet, though when I finally move back to Sydney Iíll pay him a visit to look after the pug. Thanks again everyone! Just one other thing, does anyone find the gti6 goes much faster than it actually feels? Some of the corners I was taking, only when I glanced at the speedo I realised geez. On one of my favourite passes, the old highway to Eagle on the Hill in Adelaide, a beautiful set of two wide lanes each way, smooth slow hairpins to quick sweepers, I came upon this Suburu Liberty (just a stocker I think) who was doing a great rate of knots on a straight bit, going into a 35 km/hr right hander, overtook him around the corner on the inside lane like he was standing still. Amazing. I'm a convert....

    Cheers,

  9. #9
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    That's great to hear! Keep a close eye on your tyre wear, as I made small changes like yours and it improved things, but the tyre wear was extreme, indicating a bigger problem.

    Fingers crossed for you, buddy.

    Lincoln
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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Reading your post I had a grin on my face as I took a trip down the memory lane (only few months ago) to me going down the Old Pac Hwy (similar to your Adeliade Hills I suspect) ... and then even few more weeks back doing the midnight run with some AF'ers.. you know who you are.

    As you probably know the tyres pressures play a huge role, check the pressure when hot and again when cold at the same servo and you will find anything upto 7psi difference.

    Enjoy the drives, and try a hillclimb event or a supersprint. Talk about converting !
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  11. #11
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    Will do Lincoln, thanks! I'm hoping there's nothing more serious to it and it was just alignment/tyre pressure wrong..The suspension shop did say that there was quite a bit too much toe in when I brought it in....I'll be keeping a close eye though on tyres though.

    Tekkie, yeah it's good to enjoy a car on some nice mountain passes again. How resilient are these engines to a good strapping? Actually I don't rev the balls out of it every corner to get good power though I probably hit 7000 rpm a few times during a run. The manual says that the engine may use up to 0.5 litres of oil per 1000 kms, but when I checked the oil level after 1500 kms, it hadn't moved.

    I'll definitely have to check out a club around to do some hillclimbs etc, can't wait! Cheers.

  12. #12
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    The oil usage can be high, but I've never heard of anyone using the amount that Peugeot say in the manual. Since switching to Amsoil full synthetic, we found the usage dropped a bit too, as well as keeping the temperature a bit more normal.

    The engine is very resilient, it's the engine mounts that can cause some problems, as well as the torsional forces on the exhaust. But don't let that stop you, both of those problems are easy to fix!

    Oh, how I miss my GTi6...
    - Lincoln

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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    same as Lincoln's GTI, mine had never used any oil.

    As to the engines... he he he he... *evil homer laugh* they really like to sit in the sweetspot of 5000rpm. and are quite happy to get up and run upto the redline.

    I found mine to be quite ok at 3500, and really coming on strong at 4500 until the rev limiter got hit. Compared to stock GTi's mine was a tad more rev happy and would pull strong till the redline, but I lost the 500rpm near the bottom end. I had the aftermarket exhaust fitted and a POD style filter by the A&E Motors.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

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  14. #14
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    The previous owner had only serviced it with the dealership so was probably only using a standard oil. I serviced it as soon as I bought it and used Mobil 1 fully synth. I've heard that Amsoil is a better oil, but I guess at that quality level it really starts to get a bit academic. Where do you buy Amsoil from, and how expensive is it for 5 Litres? Mobil 1 cost me about $65..ouch, but at every 10 thou' kms service I guess it's not too bad.

    Does the aftermarket exhaust and air filter increase the noise much? Having previously lived with a car which was completely tiresome on any sort of drive other than a fast one, I love how the factory exhaust has only a hint of any sportiness during normal driving but develops that nice throaty burble that makes it sound larger than its 2 litres. Power feels just right for the chassis, but who ever says no to even more, but I don't want to lose any bottom end at all either so I guess I can't have it both ways.

    Ok this is the honeymoon period for me so if I'm tiring anyone out with gti6 this and gti6 that, just lemme know. Oh..lemme know after my next thread that I'm going to start about brake disc/pads packages for replacement over the oem ones. My discs are close to the minimal thickness and pads have only a few more thou' in them so I'll be looking to replace both soon.

  15. #15
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    The difference between Amsoil and Mobil is a bit academic really. Amsoil cost more and you can go a bit longer before changing it (with 5K oil filter changes).

    Re: brakes, there's a current thread on it, started by Brad, and we've had some extensive talks on them before. There's some good information in there, especially regarding bedding the new rotors properly.

    Here's Brad's thread: 306 Brake Upgrade Thread
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Check out this thread on the cold air induction.
    Cold air induction on GTi6

    There you can see my POD style filter, as well as the more pro-looking Cookie's production. Apparently he can manufacture them to your specs. Drop him a PM.

    With the brakes I had DBA standard rotors fitted with Bendix (france) stnd. pads and they gripped awesome cold. I havent really pushed them on the track so I cant really say how they would go after a flogging session (fade characteristics Im talking about). They seemed to have a fairly large metal contnent in them judging from the reflections from particles when I was fitting them.

    If you want to have a look at the pics of my exhaust here they are:
    GTi 6 exhaust pic1
    GTi 6 exhaust pic2
    GTi 6 exhaust pic3
    GTi 6 exhaust pic4
    GTi 6 exhaust pic5

    During the few meetings with fellow AF'ers, most people commented on the beautiful raspy sound my 306 used to make. There was no drone (slight harmonics at 3250rpm) and the car felt awesome.
    The exhaust was a cat back system with larger CAT, and 2 1/4 inch stainless.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  17. #17
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    How mch are Essargo charging for that exhaust? A Magnex full Extractors back and hi flow cat converter is also another highly recommended alternative. I can't remember how much the Magnex system is though, around $1200, I think.
    - Lincoln

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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! BW205's Avatar
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    On the UK's Gti-6 forums...they all concluded that the Magnex Exhausts are quite loud. And Yes they do drone on the highway.

    Cheers
    Billy
    Stock '87 205 GTi
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  19. #19
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BW205
    On the UK's Gti-6 forums...they all concluded that the Magnex Exhausts are quite loud. And Yes they do drone on the highway.

    Cheers
    Billy
    That's good to know Billy. Thanks for that.
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  20. #20
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    5 K service??

    The manual recommends a 10 K service (both oil and oil filter), and I was thinking that would be sufficient unless there was fairly serious track use. Do you guys do a diy oil and filter change in between the scheduled 10 K services?

  21. #21
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jastanis
    5 K service??

    The manual recommends a 10 K service (both oil and oil filter), and I was thinking that would be sufficient unless there was fairly serious track use. Do you guys do a diy oil and filter change in between the scheduled 10 K services?
    I don't change the oil, I change the filter and top it u every 5000kms. I don't do it myself either, I take it to my Pug Specialist.
    - Lincoln

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