Project 504 rally car. Front Struts to give neg 1.5 camber?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Project 504 rally car. Front Struts to give neg 1.5 camber?

    I picked through the archives, and the experts tell me, If I use the 288mm lower control arms off a late 504 Wagon( I have a set) and the struts from a series one ie pre 1986 505GTi or STi this will give me 1.5 deg neg camber which is desirable for a rally car? Now I have measured the angle of the stub axle in relationship to the strut tube from the standard ( late504 wagon, fitted with late type ball joints) which is 10 deg . And also measured the angle of a set of struts that I was assured was from a early 505 GTi or STi and that to, was 10 deg??? Have I been diddled?? is there any definite way of distinguishing the correct strut? They both look exactly the same?

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Try s2 505 GTi struts and control arms.

  3. #3
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    I believe Series two , with the 288mm lower arms will give 3.5 neg camber!

  4. #4
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    Easiest way is early 505 struts complete with arms. Or just fit those arms to 504 struts.
    The early STi struts did have the same king pin inclination as the early 505 and the 504.
    You want the ones from 1984 or later.
    These have 6.5 turn springs fitted, the ones you got will have 7.5 turn springs.
    Series 2 or these 84 or later struts with the 505 arms give too much negative camber as you say.
    The series 2 struts don't give more negative camber, the offset springs are just there to reduce friction in the shocker shaft.

    If you refit the 505 arms to the struts you have you will be OK.
    Graham



    Quote Originally Posted by andys5004 View Post
    I believe Series two , with the 288mm lower arms will give 3.5 neg camber!

  5. #5
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    Thanks Graham, that has clarified things for me. As it turns out, I,ve just wrecked the Canning Peugeot, this was a 1981 model 505, sedan with the early style lower joints, so if I fit these struts and arms, life will be good. So what is the fuss about the 288mm late 504 wagon arms? It seemed like they were highly sought after? Any suggestions reguards Front and rear spring rates? In the 505 I Had 504 wagon front, and 505 heavy duty king springs on rear, seemed to work well, and gave it a bit more clearance Would this work in the 504?. I also have diesel fronts at my disposal, and King H/duty 504 rears. Tortion bars I have a 27mm front and a 19mm ( 604 rear) AS well as !8.5 and 26mm fited to car( French Built) Front Struts, I have some NOS genuine inserts. Was going to use 10wt motorcycle shock oil. Rear shocks I have NOS genuine GTi . Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Andy

  6. #6
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    The late 504 arms, with GTI struts, allow you to get 1.5 degrees negative camber without widening the front track; they also allow you to fit the superior 505 GTI series 2 struts to a 504. The setup also results in "proper" negative camber which remains when you steer left or right, rather than decreasing as you steer, which will happen with only the longer arms fitted.

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    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Thanks John Seems like I was given a bum steer, as I was told I needed the early Gti Struts and procured these accordingly. That is why when I measured the stub axle angle and compared it to a a standard 504 strut I was surprised it was the same? Any idea where I might Find some late GTi Struts? They needn,t bee in good condition, as I have some NOS Genuine inserts I can use. As long as they are not bent. Cheers Andy

  8. #8
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    Early GTi struts WERE what you needed you must have been given early STi struts.
    Your inserts are for series 2, they are different.

  9. #9
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    Hi Graham, that may have been the case, my original source said Sti and Gti were same.However, I am now confused again? Seems I have 2 options. use the early 505 struts and arms.Or to achieve the more desirable set up as described by John , I need the 288 arms, but John says the late GTi series 2 struts, and you now say early GTi??????????????? Am I just thick? The Inserts, I need to check part number? I also have a 504 wagon I can use them on, that needs struts, so no great loss.

  10. #10
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    They are but there is an early STi strut.

  11. #11
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    Hi Graham,and John Just to enter another problem into the Equation. I have been running 195/14 8 ply light truck tyres, for a few reasons. Ie they are easily available, also I do quite a lot of dirt driving. I know that the Standard 504 struts clear these tyres.I will run either a set of Wagon steel rims( they are stronger, so they say than the sedan) or the 604 Dunlop Mags( with special wheel nuts that I machined to suit the 12mm wheel studs) These are currently on the car. Both rims are STD off-set. A friend suggested that the series 2 GTi struts may have tyre clearance probs? One other question please? If I use the 505 Stuts and lower arms, is it best to use the longer 505 steering rack ends? If I go the 288mm, and series 2 struts, I guess I use the 504 Rack ends? Ceers Andy

  12. #12
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    Andy what are you actually going to do with the 504? If it is serious Rallying then you use Rally tyres, NOT light truck tyres! Currently 14" Rally rubber is scarce to extinct in the rolling diameter of a 175 and larger 80 profile. The closest is a 15" rim and even then they are hard to procure. Work out your rolling diameter and hit the web sites of the tyre companies. Very few do specific RWD tyres, but some can be made to work if fitted backwards or re-grooved/cut. Possibly the 'get out clause' is a Mud terrain tyre fitted to smaller Four wheel drives. The closest thing to a Rally tyre for my Ford BF wagon is a 215/60 x 16 from a Subaru Outback or similar. Brendan.

  13. #13
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    Hi Bluey, Valid point, I,m no Ross Dunkerton! A play car, that can be used for a outback type rally, A variety club bash, but also used daily, nothing to serious! One Question, I should have asked much earlier in this Blog, as I,m still Mildly confused. While the Series 1 and Series 2 505 GTI struts have subtile differences RE- Spring wind etc Do they both share the same KPI? ( king pin inclination angle) Cheers Andy

  14. #14
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    I,m going to answer my own Question now! I ,ve , Re- read message 3 and 4, that is what had me Confused! When I said 288( late 504) and 505 series 2 would give 3.5! No one corrected me on that, which had me thinking the KPI on series 1 and 2 were different! it,s all as clear as mud to me now! Thanks for your patience!

  15. #15
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Andy,

    Just to clarify, I didn't say you NEED series 2 GTI struts, just that they are better than series 1 and, with the 288mm arms, you have the option to use them. Series 1 OR 2 GTI struts with 288mm arms will result in the same geometry. In fact the same geometry as a 505 GTI, but in a narrower car with a narrower track.

    Re. tyre clearance. My 504 has S2 struts, 288mm arms and 205/60 tyres on 15 inch GTI rims. No clearance issues. Again keep in mind your 504 front end is identical to 505 GTI with this setup.

    By the way I'm also using 504 Koni inserts in the S2 struts. They work.

    Cheers
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  16. #16
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    On my 504 race car, I have the original struts with lower control arm 604, but with 504 original caster bars, with this, I get negative camber, but this is a bad way to get negative camber, what do you think?
    I get more caster with this, so although perhaps sufficient negative camber when I turn right or left, what do you think?
    Positive about this is, I think I get a wide track, as 505!
    It helps handling.
    Has wide track in the front, so it should also have wide track of the rear.

    I have struts from 505 Turbo in the garage, I'm thinking if it would be better than the original 504 struts, but I want to keep the wide track, it's an option to move out of the upper attachment point for the struts, not to get too much camber?

    Will not it get me apparently too much camber, what I read here.

    Bobby

  17. #17
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    Thanks John. Can you advise me please where you got the Koni Inserts?

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Make sure the Koni inserts that you intend installing have the same stroke as the std Pug ones. I just replaced my 504 Koni's and they were 60mm shorter in the stroke!
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

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    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
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  19. #19
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    I found my Konis on ebay, in the US I think it was. They were old stock. I took them to Toperformance in Vermont (Melbourne) to get refreshed, and they told me they can supply them new. Rear shocks too. I was trying to get a group buy going some time back but it never happened.

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    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  20. #20
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    Damm, Andy. Sorry to see that CSR 505 go back to its maker! It did so well. Neil

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi Niel, that was probably the best car I ever owned! It never let me down! I hit 3 roos on it,s last major journey, but it still made it home in good form. It had just got to 500,000. But just sadly wasn,t worth spending money on. The Major conponents will be put to good use. I bumped into the crew, that did the widest point crossing. Hank is trying to round up a group to tackle it again, in a year or two. 4 Vehicles with 4 support vehicles. The difference, is I carried everything myself+ the car was pretty much standard. They will be travelling much lighter+ are paying more attention to raising the vehicles. I may even go with them yet, time will tell. Cheers for now Andy

  22. #22
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    Hey Andy, now I know who you are! A mate told me a few weeks ago of this guy who drove a 505 on the Canning Stock Route and I found a website about your trip: 2WD and now here I am trying to give advice to you on Aussiefrogs! A very inspiring read there about you and the 505. I did a trip last year to Broken Hill and Arkaroola in my 504, and a big part of the fun for me is taking a funny old 2WD car to places where you usually only see serious 4WDs.

    Anyway, Toperformance can be found here: Welcome to Toperformance Products. Their phone number is (03) 9873 1722. Best of luck.
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi John, going back a few years, I used to be a tour guide driving overland Trucks( with 20 tourists on the back) The width, and Breadth of Africa.It was a fun Job.Going down through the Saharah, I thought I was doing realy well in my 4x4 8 ton Bedford truck, until I realized it was a regular route for Peugeot taxi,s?? That is what seeded the idea.As I travelled the middle east and South America, These funny French Cars Totally dominated, that is where I developed a passion for them. The 505, I got for free from my sister. I ran it around for 8 months and irioned out the faults, before I set off.However if it couldn,t make it, I was prepared to leave it in the desert. It did it with ease, and I achieved, what I wanted,ie to do it self contained, without outside assistance. Although I did travel with 2 other 4x4s, otherwise I would have been deemed irresponsible. Nice to see, there's more crazy people like myself out there Cheers Andy

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