Converting my TI back to a GL[504]
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Thread: Converting my TI back to a GL[504]

  1. #1
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    Default Converting my TI back to a GL[504]

    I just returned from a big drive to SA trailering my Cali3 Moto Guzzi which I sold over there. During the trip the engine developed a serious backfire on backoff so on the next morning I redid the tappets all out to 15thou. Although this fixed the problem for a few hours eventually the backfiring resumed so I assumed there must have been burn holes beginning in the valves. Must have been close to catastrophic failure by the time I got home and as I drove in to my drive one of the rear tyres went down as well. The exhaust had shaken loose too due to the rough idle and rough running in general.
    So I took my GL head off to the engine shop for a quickie and this morning I took off the TI head.
    I have never seen such serious valve recession. Number 3 exhaust must be nearly right through the seat as the face is sitting about an eighth of an inch below the head chamber. But there are no visible holes in the valves with them still in place.
    Number one has been running too hot so probably a dodgy injector.
    I got round 6k's per litre for the trip and for some of it had to endure bad fuel fumes though could not source a leak.
    Thus I am totally over the TI setup and looking forward to a KISS system with a carb and a mechanical fuel pump.
    I am hoping the TI cam will have the fuel pump lobe to drive it.
    To keep it to the bare minimum of work I plan to remove the injector pump and sedis belt and just blank off the hole where the pump was, but leave the TI timing cover in place.
    The engine did not overheat at all or burn any oil during the trip. The bores look pretty good with only fine scores but no discernible lip.
    I'll see how this goes and may sell the TI stuff later on. It really hasn't given me a lot of joy.

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    Gone Fishin' Haakon's Avatar
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    Megasquirt?

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    You needed one of these (see post 3) Vale SUPER/LRP - Any ideas for older pugs?

    Sorry to hear about so much damage froma single trip. Were you using any fuel additive?

    Also, have you read through this thread? Seems that converting a Ti engine is not simple, and the Ti cam is not much good with any other system.504Ti carb conversion.

    All in all a disappointing outcome - makes one very wary about acquiring a Ti...

    Cheers

    Alec

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    i was going to say in the spotted thread that when you drove past here it sounded very ill
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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    I just returned from a big drive to SA trailering my Cali3 Moto Guzzi which I sold over there. During the trip the engine developed a serious backfire on backoff so on the next morning I redid the tappets all out to 15thou. Although this fixed the problem for a few hours eventually the backfiring resumed so I assumed there must have been burn holes beginning in the valves. Must have been close to catastrophic failure by the time I got home and as I drove in to my drive one of the rear tyres went down as well. The exhaust had shaken loose too due to the rough idle and rough running in general.
    So I took my GL head off to the engine shop for a quickie and this morning I took off the TI head.
    I have never seen such serious valve recession. Number 3 exhaust must be nearly right through the seat as the face is sitting about an eighth of an inch below the head chamber. But there are no visible holes in the valves with them still in place.
    Number one has been running too hot so probably a dodgy injector.
    I got round 6k's per litre for the trip and for some of it had to endure bad fuel fumes though could not source a leak.
    Thus I am totally over the TI setup and looking forward to a KISS system with a carb and a mechanical fuel pump.
    I am hoping the TI cam will have the fuel pump lobe to drive it.
    To keep it to the bare minimum of work I plan to remove the injector pump and sedis belt and just blank off the hole where the pump was, but leave the TI timing cover in place.
    The engine did not overheat at all or burn any oil during the trip. The bores look pretty good with only fine scores but no discernible lip.
    I'll see how this goes and may sell the TI stuff later on. It really hasn't given me a lot of joy.
    My suggestion would be whip out the TI motor intact.

    The find a square port 505 motor, they must be around,and stick a Falcon weber carby on it. You will end up with "factory standard motor" (bar the weber) with equivalent performance to TI motor.

    IMO the TI motor is an unknown in the bottom end as well as the top end. Keep it all together and work on later/ sell it depending on the urge.

    The square motor is newer, has aircon compressor mounts and drops straight in.

    Swapping an engine will work out easier than stuffing around building a Frankenpug composite of TI/ 504 bits. Immediately you pull the head off an old engine Pandora's box is released.

    I'd try to get the 505 radiator to go with it.

    And if you feel brave later you can do efi coversion with falcon throttle body on the square port manifold + megasquirt.
    Weber carb to Falcon TBI conversion

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    You weren't using Valvemaster or Flashlube then.?
    You will need to get the lobe on the cam ground for the fuel pump, it is just rough cast.
    I have never had any success with the Tis, I reckon after 10 years or so everything was worn out and performance and economy just weren't there any more.
    Graham


    QUOTE=luthier;1201251]I just returned from a big drive to SA trailering my Cali3 Moto Guzzi which I sold over there. During the trip the engine developed a serious backfire on backoff so on the next morning I redid the tappets all out to 15thou. Although this fixed the problem for a few hours eventually the backfiring resumed so I assumed there must have been burn holes beginning in the valves. Must have been close to catastrophic failure by the time I got home and as I drove in to my drive one of the rear tyres went down as well. The exhaust had shaken loose too due to the rough idle and rough running in general.
    So I took my GL head off to the engine shop for a quickie and this morning I took off the TI head.
    I have never seen such serious valve recession. Number 3 exhaust must be nearly right through the seat as the face is sitting about an eighth of an inch below the head chamber. But there are no visible holes in the valves with them still in place.
    Number one has been running too hot so probably a dodgy injector.
    I got round 6k's per litre for the trip and for some of it had to endure bad fuel fumes though could not source a leak.
    Thus I am totally over the TI setup and looking forward to a KISS system with a carb and a mechanical fuel pump.
    I am hoping the TI cam will have the fuel pump lobe to drive it.
    To keep it to the bare minimum of work I plan to remove the injector pump and sedis belt and just blank off the hole where the pump was, but leave the TI timing cover in place.
    The engine did not overheat at all or burn any oil during the trip. The bores look pretty good with only fine scores but no discernible lip.
    I'll see how this goes and may sell the TI stuff later on. It really hasn't given me a lot of joy.[/QUOTE]

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    O god[dog] I was using flashlube yes but not sure why it went that way. I had given it a couple of doses of injector clean that was sposed to soften carbon buildup, and was running on 98 as advised here and there.
    But to put things straight here what I am actually going to do is to use the bottom end of the TI with my GL head which is at the engine place as we speak. I wanted to run the mechanical fuel pump but if it's only a rough cast lobe then that won't work for too long. Bugger!
    I am leaving the timing case but removing the pump, already have as a matter of fact, so will have to make a cover plate to keep the oil in.
    I took off the extender sedis drive from the camshaft and fitted the shorter bolts from the GL camshaft.
    I removed the oil filter body which will be replaced with the GL one as it doesn't have the oil feed to the Kugel pump.
    The alternator will remain below as per TI, no probs.
    The head takes a big twin throat downdraught Zenith carb similar to a Weber and will fit on easy.
    From what Graham has said about the cam lobe for the fuel pump I should continue with my electric feed but I hate the idea as it is too much complication and has too much leak potential. Are you sure about this Graham as I would like to just run a pump on it but if that makes lots of metal filings then obviously I'm stuffed.
    As far as the cam profile working or not for performance I'll take a chance. Thanks for the brainstorm. I read the other thread and found no real conclusions either way.

    The alternative of course would be to slip my GL cam in there so perhaps everyone including me would be much happier with that circumstance? Yes?

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    You could pull the cam out and get the fuel pump lobe reground as I did, won't cost much.
    Other wise just buy a proper carby electric pump, get rid of the all the Ti fuel setup.
    Nothing special about the camshaft, will work fine with carby.
    It has been said that it is special because the Kugelfischer system relies on vacuum but so does almost every other system these days.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    O god[dog] I was using flashlube yes but not sure why it went that way. I had given it a couple of doses of injector clean that was sposed to soften carbon buildup, and was running on 98 as advised here and there.
    But to put things straight here what I am actually going to do is to use the bottom end of the TI with my GL head which is at the engine place as we speak. I wanted to run the mechanical fuel pump but if it's only a rough cast lobe then that won't work for too long. Bugger!
    I am leaving the timing case but removing the pump, already have as a matter of fact, so will have to make a cover plate to keep the oil in.
    I took off the extender sedis drive from the camshaft and fitted the shorter bolts from the GL camshaft.
    I removed the oil filter body which will be replaced with the GL one as it doesn't have the oil feed to the Kugel pump.
    The alternator will remain below as per TI, no probs.
    The head takes a big twin throat downdraught Zenith carb similar to a Weber and will fit on easy.
    From what Graham has said about the cam lobe for the fuel pump I should continue with my electric feed but I hate the idea as it is too much complication and has too much leak potential. Are you sure about this Graham as I would like to just run a pump on it but if that makes lots of metal filings then obviously I'm stuffed.
    As far as the cam profile working or not for performance I'll take a chance. Thanks for the brainstorm. I read the other thread and found no real conclusions either way.

    The alternative of course would be to slip my GL cam in there so perhaps everyone including me would be much happier with that circumstance? Yes?

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    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    "You weren't using Valvemaster or Flashlube then.?"

    Never ever used any valve lube in my Ti!! (sorry). Still has original seats and valves. I do use 98 ron.

    I towed 680kg of motorkhana special and trailer for about 9 years. Twice to Adelaide and Brisbane, four times to Melbourne and three times to Canberra.

    Peter Portelli also drove a 404Ti motored ute for years with standard seats!

    Mine must be about to shit itself?? Last time I drove it it would still chirp the wheels into second, idles well, though runs a bit hotter than it did 20 years ago.
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
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    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


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    On returning from a recent trip to France I finally replaced the head gasket on my TI (named Monster by my wife)The head was the best TI head the machine shop had ever seen with almost no material lost after they did their thing.....and the beast absolutely flies.It was previously owned by a very fastidious 504 freak ,and immediately prior to me was owned by our local peugeot mechanic fanatic....so no expense was spared in keeping it in very good mechanical order.I dig the TIs and I am sad to hear that yours will be going back to gl form.I myself am considering building up a very good gl I have here( with original tired motor )into TI form......time for the work being the most difficult thing to steal from myself.....I have all the bits on hand.

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    How many km have you done since the year 2000 Robert?
    Dan, did you reseat the valves on your engine?

    The reason I ask these questions is that lead deposits take a while to disappear, 8000km according to Shell and also the soft standard seats get work hardened over time, maybe even enough to replicate hardened seats.
    Graham

    to
    Quote Originally Posted by BIGRR View Post
    "You weren't using Valvemaster or Flashlube then.?"

    Never ever used any valve lube in my Ti!! (sorry). Still has original seats and valves. I do use 98 ron.

    I towed 680kg of motorkhana special and trailer for about 9 years. Twice to Adelaide and Brisbane, four times to Melbourne and three times to Canberra.

    Peter Portelli also drove a 404Ti motored ute for years with standard seats!

    Mine must be about to shit itself?? Last time I drove it it would still chirp the wheels into second, idles well, though runs a bit hotter than it did 20 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    How many km have you done since the year 2000 Robert?
    Dan, did you reseat the valves on your engine?

    The reason I ask these questions is that lead deposits take a while to disappear, 8000km according to Shell and also the soft standard seats get work hardened over time, maybe even enough to replicate hardened seats.
    Graham

    to
    No Graham, that engine was bought on a pallet and fitted as it came, was a good going engine in a rusty car when de commissioned however many years back, apparently. I can believe it as the bore is good and there is no corrosion round the cylinders so coolant has been a standard in it. The head gasket was making a good seal as well, it was not overheating nor did it use oil on the recent adventure.
    Thus I want to keep using it, just in the other form. The place I'm using is called Pryce Engineering in Cardiff coming highly recommended from a great mechanic I know by the name of Rod Cloak.
    They do a hardness test, then a crack test then a pressure test and then if it passes they do the job. For this they quoted $370 which sounds very reasonable.
    I have the gaskets on the way from Caravelle and hope to pick the head up on Friday. This is not an expensive exercise, just a get back on the road thing. I'll adjust my regulator that I fitted for the Kugel down to 5psi till I get another proper one and then I assume I'll be able to ditch the return line and get back to old fashioned fuel delivery on the old original line which I'll refit and get a new filler neck with no extra holes.
    Graham, thanks for alerting me about the rough cam lobe, as I was ready to bolt on the fuel pump tomorrow and dump all the other fuel stuff.
    Sorry to disappoint the TI buffs but from a poor[opposite of well off] layperson's viewpoint I can't afford to get new injectors or pay to have lines pressure tested or any of the fine tests and adjustments that are needed to have these precision instruments running correctly.
    That's why I have to go back to the KISS principle that I understand. Carbs are my friend. It could be worse, I could abandon the fu$#%n thing and get a Volvo.

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    I have to echo Graham's comments here -

    Constant highway speeds kill valve seats. A lot of the redex guys had troubles by around 7000K's even though they had been driving their cars for some years without changing seats. If you are driving your 404 or 504 around town & constantly changing gears then I think it would take some time before seat recession will be an issue but on the highway my experience is about 3-3500k's. I've done two heads this way both lasted about 3500k. One other with original seats & using flashlube & 98 lasted quite well for 10000 miles (16000K's) but the flashlube also seems to contribute to more soot / carbon build up in exit ports & the exhaust system in my experience.
    Go the hardened seats & you won't regret it.
    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    How many km have you done since the year 2000 Robert?
    Dan, did you reseat the valves on your engine?

    The reason I ask these questions is that lead deposits take a while to disappear, 8000km according to Shell and also the soft standard seats get work hardened over time, maybe even enough to replicate hardened seats.
    Graham

    to

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    The Redex people with the most trouble all had their valves reseated beforehand.
    Strange thing is though that three people had supposedly hard seats fitted and two of these had trouble before the start! One of these on a trip from Adelaide to Mount Gambier, he sent the head back to be done properly. Another person when he arrived in Melbourne from WA, he got a replacement head from a PCCV member who had been using it on gas.
    The third car struggled around the event adjusting valves.
    The moral of that is, get your head done by a reputable company.
    In this years rerun only one car had recession, everyone else presumably had learnt and fitted hard seats.
    The car that had the trouble was a 404 and it was using Flashlube, so a bit hard to explain why.
    One adjustment of the clearances was all that was required though.
    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by Grenouille View Post
    I have to echo Graham's comments here -

    Constant highway speeds kill valve seats. A lot of the redex guys had troubles by around 7000K's even though they had been driving their cars for some years without changing seats. If you are driving your 404 or 504 around town & constantly changing gears then I think it would take some time before seat recession will be an issue but on the highway my experience is about 3-3500k's. I've done two heads this way both lasted about 3500k. One other with original seats & using flashlube & 98 lasted quite well for 10000 miles (16000K's) but the flashlube also seems to contribute to more soot / carbon build up in exit ports & the exhaust system in my experience.
    Go the hardened seats & you won't regret it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    Thus I am totally over the TI setup
    Forgive me if I've missed something but if you are not putting hardened valve seats in the GL head,

    Quote Originally Posted by luthier View Post
    So I took my GL head off to the engine shop for a quickie...
    How will changing the fuel system fix VSR? or does it already have hardened valve seats?
    504 GL Coupe '73 Silver
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    Hardened seats were only fitted from 1981 onwards.
    The seats are only about $30 each to get fitted.
    Just need the exhaust seats and the valves are fine as they are.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    Forgive me if I've missed something but if you are not putting hardened valve seats in the GL head,



    How will changing the fuel system fix VSR? or does it already have hardened valve seats?

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    I cant see how the valve seats can go in such a short time .It cant be something that happens on TIs and not on GLs. I remember when Falcon taxis were first converted to LPG in the 70/s they would be driven until the valves caused problems and then fitted with change over heads with hardened seats . This was usually after 100,000 km/s

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    I'm getting hardened seats fitted. They charge $55 each and the guy at first tried to talk me out of bothering but when I told him about the recession[I had to have] in the TI seats he is doing them.
    The only reason the GL may have not required them as opposed to the TI was the age of each engine, the TI is a 73 while the GL is from 80 though South African import. Graham says 1981 they changed. Good enough for me, I'll get the inserts[the ones they use are suitable for LPG].
    Julian, I am sorry to have stuffed a TI head but I will not be sorry to abandon the fuel supply or the sedis belt or the niggly leaks that kept on happening round the injector box or the uneven injector performance. While I enjoyed the TI briefly it didn't go much better than the GL with a partly blown headgasket. Probably because it was not right in several ways. I am sure they are a beautiful thing when everything is A1 and maintained that way. Unfortunately I am not in any position to be fastidious specially with new injectors either costing $500 each or unobtanium and also being my own mechanic whenever possible because I usually can and because I usually can't afford proffessional help.[Either with my car or my head.]

    So if any of you dedicated TI buffs are after some spares I have two pumps and most of the ancillaries though it is too hard at the moment to change the front timing case as I think the sump must come off first, seems that way on the GL that is sitting on my shed floor.
    Thanks for all the help and interest.

  19. #19
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    "How many km have you done since the year 2000 Robert?"

    My Ti has done about 5000km since 2000, mostly towing the special interstate.
    It might be about to shit itself! Does anyone want to buy it?? .
    It has only averaged about 50km/year since 2004.

    Robert
    Last edited by BIGRR; 16th October 2013 at 04:54 PM.
    Present fleet:-
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    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
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    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGRR View Post
    "How many km have you done since the year 2000 Robert?"

    My Ti has done about 5000km since 2000, mostly towing the special interstate.
    It might be about to shit itself! Does anyone want to buy it?? .
    It has only averaged about 50km/year since 2004.

    Robert
    probably will shit itself, they are hugely unreliable
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    I had 2 TIs and loved them,especially their torque from under 1000rpm, their ability to rev to 7000 at will and their ability to sit on 80mph + all day back when you could BUT I suspect that these now very old cars with old bits could be a nightmare to keep going. As has been written previously ,extending twin pipes to the back of the gearbox, a good free flowing exhaust and a weber make a carby car a nice[and simple] place to be. I like Robmac's idea of a 505 square port and weber and suspect it will be even better. This is the way I will go if ever the existing engine needs replacing.[touch wood] Neil

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    Next best thing is to use wot I have which is a square port 504 head with a great walloping Zenith on the TI bottom end.
    I'll report back how she goes. It's my cheapest way out other than finding one of the 'free' cars out there that usually have a cupla thousand bucks to spend to get them hunky dory.
    I could have been extravagant and stuck a warmer cam in but as I believe the TI cam to be slightly warmer than standard anyhow I declined, particularly considering the nightmare of removing the sump plate and the oil pump etc. , nup I don't need that $hit.
    It's not something to get excited about, I just want the bloody thing to work and pretty sure it will. When it's running I'll do a photo of the huge pile of munt that I ripped off the beast. The weight loss alone should give her a few extra horses.

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    If my TI ever becomes high maintenance I think I would convert it to LPG using the original inlet manifold ,rather than carby.

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    Julian are you alluding to going liquid gas injection if required? The current LPi Ford engine is a stunner; 12.5 to 1 pistons and better performance than the ULP cousin. The theory has always been there, just that it's taken decades for the hard, and soft, ware to be developed. Having a 'great' idea is one thing, having the money to get it going is the other problem. Brendan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    Julian are you alluding to going liquid gas injection if required? The current LPi Ford engine is a stunner; 12.5 to 1 pistons and better performance than the ULP cousin. The theory has always been there, just that it's taken decades for the hard, and soft, ware to be developed. Having a 'great' idea is one thing, having the money to get it going is the other problem. Brendan.

    i think he means to stick the gas jobby where the current throttle body is
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    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

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