403 hard to start when HOT
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default 403 hard to start when HOT

    Hey guys, hope you can help me out. My 403 starts and runs well, as it should, but after driving for a while (engine hot), it wont restart. if i leave it for 30mins, it fires up again first time. Can anyone one point me in the right direction before i start replacing everything?
    Thanks
    Tim

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    63' 403 Sedan, Cream (OMY-403)
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  2. #2
    Tadpole
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    Just a thought...

    Spark plug gaps?

    Kev

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Old/stale fuel will cause problems like this. Strange as it may seem the petroleum industry does have differing fuels for the seasons. For winter it has a more volatile nature to ensure easier starting, in summer not so which reduces vapour lock......that's if you wind back the clock to when carbies ruled, they still do but to a much lesser extent. Current fuel goes off faster in storage with vented fuel tanks. I'm guessing the fuel is a bit old (winter spec.) and with the recent burst of very warm weather you have vapour lock in the carbie/fuel system. My Old XD would conk out all the time when the weather got hot but opening the fuel cap broke the suction and away we would go. The problem was all caused by the sh!t quality of the LRP fuel. Reco'd the carbie and replace the mechanical fuel and the problem disappeared. All I did was service the fuel system and return it to OEM spec. When was the 403 given a new fuel pump? Brendan.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    Old/stale fuel will cause problems like this. Strange as it may seem the petroleum industry does have differing fuels for the seasons. For winter it has a more volatile nature to ensure easier starting, in summer not so which reduces vapour lock......that's if you wind back the clock to when carbies ruled, they still do but to a much lesser extent. Current fuel goes off faster in storage with vented fuel tanks. I'm guessing the fuel is a bit old (winter spec.) and with the recent burst of very warm weather you have vapour lock in the carbie/fuel system. My Old XD would conk out all the time when the weather got hot but opening the fuel cap broke the suction and away we would go. The problem was all caused by the sh!t quality of the LRP fuel. Reco'd the carbie and replace the mechanical fuel and the problem disappeared. All I did was service the fuel system and return it to OEM spec. When was the 403 given a new fuel pump? Brendan.
    Thanks brendan. we have changed the fuel pump with another 2nd hand one but no luck. also i dont think its vapor lock as the 403 fuel filler is simply a flap under the tail light, nowhere near airtight! old fuel could definitely be the problem though. that fuel has probably been in there for 6 years! there is under a 1/4 of a tank in it, would topping it up with fresh fuel be ok or should i dump whats there?

    thanks
    Tim
    63' 403 Sedan, Cream (OMY-403)
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  5. #5
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    Do you start it with your foot flat to the floor when hot? If not give that a try.
    These carbies tend to flood after the engine is turned off, fuel is sucked into the engine by the pump jet IIRC.
    Take a look down the throat with inlet hose removed.
    May be worth getting a carby place to take a look but a bit hard to do anything to improve it.
    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Thanks brendan. we have changed the fuel pump with another 2nd hand one but no luck. also i dont think its vapor lock as the 403 fuel filler is simply a flap under the tail light, nowhere near airtight! old fuel could definitely be the problem though. that fuel has probably been in there for 6 years! there is under a 1/4 of a tank in it, would topping it up with fresh fuel be ok or should i dump whats there?

    thanks
    Tim

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Do you start it with your foot flat to the floor when hot? If not give that a try.
    These carbies tend to flood after the engine is turned off, fuel is sucked into the engine by the pump jet IIRC.
    Take a look down the throat with inlet hose removed.
    May be worth getting a carby place to take a look but a bit hard to do anything to improve it.
    Graham
    Graham, thanks for the reply. Yes i have tried the foot flat when restarting. It sounds like it wants to start but doesn't. Seems very much like flooding. So you say theres nothing i can do? a new or reconditioned carby wont fix it? Its making the car very difficult to use as a daily driver, i need to sort it out somehow!
    Thanks for any help
    Tim
    63' 403 Sedan, Cream (OMY-403)
    63' 403 Sedan, Blue

  7. #7
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    While these carbies do flood, it doesn't usually present such a problem that they won't start with the foot flat.
    As I said take a look down the carby with the intake air hose off after you have turned the engine off and see whether fuel is running down.
    It would be worthwhile checking the float level.
    I have a few carbies if you want to try another one.
    Taking another approach, check that the wire from the distributor to coil is OK and hasn't got high resistance, this has been found to be a problem more times than you would think.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Graham, thanks for the reply. Yes i have tried the foot flat when restarting. It sounds like it wants to start but doesn't. Seems very much like flooding. So you say theres nothing i can do? a new or reconditioned carby wont fix it? Its making the car very difficult to use as a daily driver, i need to sort it out somehow!
    Thanks for any help
    Tim

  8. #8
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    I had a problem with my 403 years ago that sounded very similar. The solution at the time was to fit a thick (1/4"ish) bakelite spacer/gasket between the fuel pump and block to prevent the engine heating up the fuel in the pump and line and vapourising it. This reduced the problem immensely. Later, I fitted an electric fuel pump alongside the fuel tank and it completely resolved the problem.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    In the past one of my 404's had this hot start problem. Was eventually blamed on the carb "percolating" when hot.
    Looking down the throat of the carb, eng warm, not running, fuel could be seen bubbling up through the emulsion tube flooding the system.
    Cured by lowering the float level by altering the thickness of the washer under the float valve.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! julian b's Avatar
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    I hav/nt had any experience with 403/s ,but have had this problem with 504 TIs .Try push or roll starting when hot and if it starts easily the problem is likely to be electrical .I fitted a sports coil ,a relay on wire to the coil positive [so the power is coming direct from the battery] and an extra wire from the distributor body to the coil negative ,leaving the original wires in place .The result was instant starting when hot [quicker than when cold].

  11. #11
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    make sure the earth cable is clean

    403's will use the choke cable as an earth if the earth cable isn't earthing correctly, evidence of this can be seen at night watching the choke cable start to glow
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  12. #12
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    I take it you then used an actuating rod 1/4 inch longer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demannu View Post
    I had a problem with my 403 years ago that sounded very similar. The solution at the time was to fit a thick (1/4"ish) bakelite spacer/gasket between the fuel pump and block to prevent the engine heating up the fuel in the pump and line and vapourising it. This reduced the problem immensely. Later, I fitted an electric fuel pump alongside the fuel tank and it completely resolved the problem.

  13. #13
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I take it you then used an actuating rod 1/4 inch longer?
    I remember realising that, but I can't remember what I did at the time.... I vaguely remember bending something to make it work? I think it had a later model pump on it, no primer.
    Scotty

    Melbourne - Dandenong Ranges

    1956 Peugeot 403 - 'Francois' - resto project

    1969 Peugeot 504 - 'Pascal' - daily driver project

    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility - 'Brutus' - resto project

    1978 Peugeot 604 - as yet unnamed - V6 on straight LPG

    1987 Peugeot 505 - as yet unnamed - project car

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - 'Chloe' - 5 speed manual

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - 'Zoe' - hatchback on steroids

    2014 Peugeot RCZ - 'Remy'

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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    404, bottle of water in the boot to pour over the fuel pump to stop it vapourlocking. When getting fuel, the usual place it wouldn't hot start, I used the watering can. Being careful not to get water on the dizzy or generator- worked well, just not a good look.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Tim I'd drain the fuel system and replace it with some nice new 95 Octane and Valve Saver additive. Just remember that ULP's have a limited storage life as they rely on 'volatile' compounds to aid starting. These can include Butane, Yes AF'ers a gas, which at temperatures less than 0C is a liquid. It's use is as a 'piggy back' as it is a bit of a tart and will quite happily join onto other hydrocarbons....actually a lot of the low carbon count 'lene's do this. Propylene is the best example as with a little bit of heat and pressure it goes 'poly' and tranforms from a gas/liquid to a plastic solid. But I digress....Actually all of the posts have merit and pugrambo brought one I had clean forgotten about. Your weekends toil is set. Brendan.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    Tim I reckon your next thread maybe "How to remove rust from a petrol tank." If the fuel has been there that long it is very likely that the tank has some rust above the current 'tide mark'. Might be better to do a drain/ remove and inspect before getting too far down the road. I've just added that to my list of 'Things and Stuff' for my 504, been sitting in the shed for a few years and before I do any damage I'll try and prevent it. Brendan.

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