How much do I hate modern PSA poogoes and citroens
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  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default How much do I hate modern PSA poogoes and citroens

    The 407 must be getting old ..... at 67,000kms it's started making a noise I can hear at idle ... .which obviously means it's loud enough to be heard over a clattery deisel. I've just moved the decent cars (nice citroen made ID19's ... you know, those decent cars that'll work for 50years) out of the shed and put it up on the ramps as I couldn't find where the noise was coming from using a screwdriver as a stethoscope.... I was thinking belt tensioners ... underneath I still couldn't figure it and was hunting around ...................... its sounded to be coming from the middle............................................ ..................... Oh #[email protected]%@#$#@ I just had a thought, I jumped into the car and depressed the clutch pedal............................ the sound went away and distinctly changed. This modern piece of shit has something rattling in the clutch at a huge 67,000kms ..........................

    I need to get rid of anything modern made by PSA and go buy a nice magna. FFS: How can something be gone in a clutch at 67,000kms

    seeya,
    Shane L.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    bloody duel mass flywheels.... why ??? Why not just stick a proven solid lump of flywheel in it like has been used since the automobile was invented in the 1800's

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    That has to be the most boring video I've ever seen!

    Don't worry Shane - nice simple & reliable electric motors will soon replace all the nasty complicated infernal combustion engines (hopefully we don't all have to get hybrids first though ).

    Cheers

    Alec
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    Mate - take some comfort from the knowledge that there is somebody who HATES THEM MORE, and has LOST MORE MONEY THAN YOU CAN COUNT THROUGH THEM! It is I. Big Kev. They are Merde of the first order! Absolute, utter, impossible, unreliable, unreparable, piles of indescribable putrid excrement. And they're the good ones!
    I might act like an idiot, and I might look like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: I really AM an idiot!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigkev414 View Post
    Mate - take some comfort from the knowledge that there is somebody who HATES THEM MORE, and has LOST MORE MONEY THAN YOU CAN COUNT THROUGH THEM! It is I. Big Kev. They are Merde of the first order! Absolute, utter, impossible, unreliable, unreparable, piles of indescribable putrid excrement. And they're the good ones!
    So you'd have another then Big Kev?

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    looks like the crappy modern poogoes aren't the only cars with this flywheel fitted.

    Frequently Asked Questions | Honest John

    some models with known dual mass flywheel problems:

    Audi A3 2.0TDI 140

    Ford Focus diesel

    Ford Galaxy (officlal safety recall 2002/03 build)

    Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCI

    Honda CRV 2.2i CDTI

    Jaguar X-Type 2.0 diesel

    Land Rover Range Rover 2.5 DSE P38

    Mazda 6 diesel

    Mitsubishi Shogun diesel

    Nissan 2002 2.2D X-trail

    Nissan 3L TD Patrols (USA)

    Peugeot 307

    Porsche 993

    Toyota RAV4 D4-D

    VW Golf V 1.9 and 2.0TDI

    VW Golf V R32 3.2

    VW Passat TDI from 2005

    VW Touran diesels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    looks like the crappy modern poogoes aren't the only cars with this flywheel fitted.
    Exactly, most of you problems with modern PSA vehicles are not exclusive to PSA and will be evident on pretty much any modern car. Have you ever bought a new car? (I haven't) If you haven't then the car manufacturers have zero interest in what you think.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uffee View Post
    Exactly, most of you problems with modern PSA vehicles are not exclusive to PSA and will be evident on pretty much any modern car. Have you ever bought a new car? (I haven't) If you haven't then the car manufacturers have zero interest in what you think.
    You gotta be kidding, who'd pay the huge $$$ for one of these heaps of sh!t new. All my cars still wear there original flywheels that are happily spinning away to this day. Infact I just drove a car to work with it's original 50year old flywheel still working perfectly.

    It's a shame my wife wants a modern lump of excrement. The old cars cost nothing to run in comparison.... there actually repairable.

    Dunno how long I have to replace the clutch in the poogoe though Given it's just started rattling I'm probably safe for a small amount of time.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Shane do a bit of research before you order in a replacement, I know for many of the cars listed above there is a solid flywheel available. The dual mass flywheel has to be seen as a failed experiment and was only fitted (like the crankshaft pulleys that also fail) in an attempt to reduce noise.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Shane do a bit of research before you order in a replacement, I know for many of the cars listed above there is a solid flywheel available. The dual mass flywheel has to be seen as a failed experiment and was only fitted (like the crankshaft pulleys that also fail) in an attempt to reduce noise.

    Cheers
    Chris
    I have a little. I'm not hugely confident in replacing it with a solid one. It appears they are there to reduce the harmonic vibrations that can fracture the more solid parts (eg: gearbox shafts etc....). If I could verify there was a 2litre HDi sold by PSA with a solid flywheel I'd consider it (as it's obviously ok from a design perspective with a solid one in that case).

    I don't want to be on here sooking in 12months time the gearbox has rattled itself to bits

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    It's a lot more than noise vibrations -- these are pretty high performance diesels running at little over idling speed compared to old time truck-type motors. I posted a link to a Luk manual before that contained some design discussion and fault diagnosis. And it's not just Honest John's European list of vehicles with German-made flywheels; they are found in Japanese vehicles also. The unfortunate thing for us is that the engineering solution to a design difficulty is so expensive to fix - even clutch plate replacement has problems.

    Torque converters can do the job, so conventional autos are usually safe on this score.

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    It's a lot more than noise vibrations -- these are pretty high performance diesels running at little over idling speed compared to old time truck-type motors. I posted a link to a Luk manual before that contained some design discussion and fault diagnosis. And it's not just Honest John's European list of vehicles with German-made flywheels; they are found in Japanese vehicles also. The unfortunate thing for us is that the engineering solution to a design difficulty is so expensive to fix - even clutch plate replacement has problems.

    Torque converters can do the job, so conventional autos are usually safe on this score.
    Seems Peugeot supply a genuine replacement kit with a sold flywheel for the 307 at least
    Electronics, Cars, Fashion, Collectables, Vouchers and More Online Shopping | eBay

    I would certainly be communicating with the seller before making a decision, but this suggests the conversion is sanctioned by Peugeot?

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Seems Peugeot supply a genuine replacement kit with a sold flywheel for the 307 at least
    Electronics, Cars, Fashion, Collectables, Vouchers and More Online Shopping | eBay

    I would certainly be communicating with the seller before making a decision, but this suggests the conversion is sanctioned by Peugeot?

    Cheers
    Chris
    If I can verify peugeot themselves have sanctioned a solid flywheel. YES that is what I'll do. The flywheel is probably like the AL4 by the sound of it .... some die incredibly early, a small few last a long time.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    This is interesting....

    DMF flywheels and converting to Solid mass flywheels | eBay

    I wonder if we have flogged the DMF out by allowing the car to run in 6th gear at low revs ..... as it does it so easily. Apparently they vibrate and carry on at low revs, high loads if fitted with a standard flywheel.

    If you check it's only the later higher powered HDI's that have the DMF, the earlier or smaller engined one that don't have the massive low down torque have a standard flywheel.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I have a little. I'm not hugely confident in replacing it with a solid one. It appears they are there to reduce the harmonic vibrations that can fracture the more solid parts (eg: gearbox shafts etc....). If I could verify there was a 2litre HDi sold by PSA with a solid flywheel I'd consider it (as it's obviously ok from a design perspective with a solid one in that case).

    I don't want to be on here sooking in 12months time the gearbox has rattled itself to bits

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    The HDi 2.0 L engines that appeared in the N5 306 series (DW 10TD 1997cc) were fitted with "old style solid" flywheel while Peugeot introduced the "dual mass" flywheel on the 406 D9 series, both around 1999.
    Both similar 8 valve engines although the 406 version was fitted with an intercooler and produced about 20HP (or KW?) more

    Alain

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    The HDi 2.0 L engines that appeared in the N5 306 series (DW 10TD 1997cc) were fitted with "old style solid" flywheel while Peugeot introduced the "dual mass" flywheel on the 406 D9 series, both around 1999.
    Both similar 8 valve engines although the 406 version was fitted with an intercooler and produced about 20HP (or KW?) more

    Alain
    It's nothing to do with power, it's massive torque at extremely low revs .... Without the dual mass flywheel it must shudder and vibrate like crazy pulling 1600rpm @320Nm in 6th gear. With the dual mass flywheel is cruises along smoothly.... however probably flogs the DMF out

    My guess is it will just need to run at higher revs to avoid vibration/shuddering if fitted with a standard flywheel

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Fellow Frogger! julian b's Avatar
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    It is interesting that you call a 50 year old ID 19 a reliable car .I had a 61 ID 19 in 68 and it was constant trouble .First the clutch plate dissintegrated and I had to learn work on cars myself .Then a gearchange rod broke in half and I had to drive home in second .Then a drive shaft failed when a large nut that holds it together came loose .Then a brake pipe under the motor wore through because of vibrations resulting in no brakes .Then the motor developed a knock under load [piston slap] requiring new pistons and sleeves .There were failures of generators and starter motors and the crank handle got a bit of use .At least I didn't have trouble with suspension . I have had 2 lemons in my life ,the other one was a 6 year old Falcon wagon .

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Nice .... yep, 50year old ID's are reliable. If something breaks I can fix it easily .... for next to nothing. A worn out engine is still a worn out engine though. I've got lots of generators here .... You can wear them out ?? Pffft.... just park on a hill if your worried about starters. I would be concerned about losing a brake line on a '61 model though. No powered brakes back then My are both '63 models so have mushroom brakes.

    BTW: You deserve congratulations, I've never heard of anyone .... ever .... anywhere breaking a DS/ID driveshaft, have you seen the size of one .... I think you might mean all 8 nuts loosened gearbox end as they weren't fitted with the locking washers (or not tightened when the car was worked on)... You can't blame a car for that You can't get the early MASSIVE shafts apart. Gearchange rod broke ... Um ... it's a solid length of metal, I can't see how that's even possible (unless they are different on a '61).



    the big rod running down to the gearbox is the shifter mechanism ............... This broke

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    The rod on the 61 mod was pretty flimsy hollow steel [may have had more bends than 63 because 1st gear was back and down].The driveshaft nut was at the wheel end and a huge thing around the outer diameter which needed a special spanner

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    Shane, harmonics are very strange animals. As you have read in the link, at the very minimum, if a solid flywheel goes on, it must have a clutch plate with damping centre also. But I believe that should also be matched to the engine, so a proper kit designed as a pair for that engine could be OK, but as you say, you might get a bit more vibration at lower speeds.

    Here are a couple of quick memories that came to my mind reading this thread, none of which involve DMF but all relevant.

    1. Did you ever see a early Holden with 2 speed Hydramatic transmission? Grey motor, EK and EJ, about 1960-1963 I think. My old man had one (EJ wagon). It developed a bad shudder at idle, which actually caused the engine to stall. My dad was a mechanic but couldn't tune the thing to not stall. Someone told him it would be the drive plate on the auto causing it - common problem. Although the auto had a fluid flywheel (similar to torque converter) it needed an extra harmonic damper, which looked like a cluth plate without any linings on it, outer bolted to the engine flywheel, inner splined to the auto fluid flywheel. It may not have even had a proper engine flywheel - can't remember. When he removed it, that plate was absoutely knackered, the concentric springs (like a clutch plate) were all loose and broken, and the inner spline was pretty well chewed out. Replaced that plate, and the car was like new. Now that was with a smooth running 6 cylinder with a fluid connection to the auto.
    Comment: The technology is not new?

    2. In the 1970's I was an engineer in trucks at the Benz distributors over here. We supplied the first batches of MB city buses on the road in Aust. They were fully automatic 3 speeds with lock-up torque converter - box very similar to car just bigger. First batch of buses, no problems. Then they upgraded to higher powered engines (actually I think they were longer stroke engines), we got the lower powered option in Perth (still with the new long-stroke engines). Not long after they went into service they started sh*tt*ng the lock-up clutch plate inside the torque converter. Being a commercial, the TC was repairable, they were probaly about 500mm dia, with about 50 screws around the outside holding the 2 halves together. Inside was a drive plate, exactly like a manual trans clutch plate, running in the fluid and operated by hydraulic pressure on the outer linings. When the converter was in lock-up, this plate was the only damper between the crankshaft and the gearbox. MB had to design another drive plate with different characteristics to stop it happening. An interesting thing was that they had done all the reliability testing using the high powered option engines, assuming the lower power option would not be a problem using the same auto trans - wrong - there was something different in the harmonic vibration of the engine which caused the problem.

    3. Also in that job, I designed a couple of conversions to GM Allison automatic transmissions for some of the truck range. When we went to MB (Gernany) to get the approval for an Allison on a V6 diesel, it was knocked back on technical grounds. Odd, because the parts books showed us that they had this same Allison conversion running in factory supplied trucks in Europe. Through the GM Allison people here, we found that they had had broken input shafts on the trucks in Europe, so had put a hold on any further conversions. Now on most of the conversions, it was standard practice to use a solid disc (drive-plate) to connect engine to the Allison auto, but on this particular V6 (which was 90 deg vee) it had some bad harmonic which did the damage. I think they came out with a sprung type drive plate to absorb the vibrations.

    OK, just stories, but interesting I would think, in relation to the new Dual mass flywheels. The manufacturers have overcome a problem with the high torque at low rpm by using the DMF. Possibly they found it was better than a solid flywheel with damped clutch plate, I don't know. But I would be pretty wary about the change.

    Cheers.

    Chris.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yeah I'm certainly not convinced that it won't do damage. They are valeo branded kits though ....

    Solid Flywheel Conversion KIT FOR Peugeot 308 407 607 807 Expert 2 0 HDI 136BHP | eBay

    cheap postage on this one ... hmmm... That's not much more the just the clutch kit without flywheel locally. If you look the clutch plate does actually have dampening springs in it. I think the issue is where poeple fit a standard flywheel, but don't go back to the standard clutch as well.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
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    I replaced the dual mass flywheel in my Nissan Pathfinder with a solid one 110,000kms ago and have had no problems. There was certainly a different harmonic after the conversion but we soon got used to it and nothing seems to have suffered any ill effects. Given this experience I would certainly contemplate a solid flywheel if I ever have a problem with the 407 (which has 110,000kms on it so far).

    Cheers

    Jim

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    I have the same problem on my DW10BTED4 powered 307 and just received a Valeo 4P SMF kit this week. I'll be changing it tomorrow.
    From what I found during my research the problems arise (as Double Chevron has mentioned) if you only change the flywheel from DMF to SMF without changing the clutch disc. The Valeo clutch disc that comes in the 4P kit is sprung where the clutch disc in a DMF kit is solid (relying on the DMF to dampen).

    Be aware that there is a difference in the kit you need depending on the year / month of manufacture.
    The Valeo part 415 0225 10 or 835068 is for the pre 09/2006
    where the 415 0320 10 is for post 09/2006 models

    Below is the response I got from a cluth specialist on ebay in the UK when I asked what the difference was:

    The difference is the "pot depth" between the two flywheels. In other words on one flywheel the driving face is flush with the outside edge, on the other it is recessed by 15mm. The two clutch kits are different too, between the different flywheels. If you were to change the DMF, clutch & CSC then I would think either would be suitable, as the engine code/power outputs between the two designs does not change, but if you were to think about doing that I would want to speak with LuK technical just to be sure.

    I was asking about the 307 specifically but the kit I ended up with suits 407 and Citroen C5 also so this info may apply to other models with the same engine.
    The Valeo catalog is found here:
    Spare Parts - Automotive Spare Parts - Automotive Post Equipment Solutions - - Product Catalog - Valeo Service UK and Eire (Unitedkingdom - EN)

    I ordered mine form this seller in Italy for $AU 543 and 65 Euro ($AU100) shipping and it arrived in under a week.

    835068 Kupplungssatz Peugeot 407 SW 6E 2 0 HDI 135 136HP 2004 Valeo | eBay

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    Lots of vw golf ones have been replaced in the states and punished since. The Koleos has one (i have been led to believe) and if so, when the clutch goes it will be turfed as well. I really think it won't be a problem, I suspect mounts will go first.

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