205 GTi diff removal
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    Default 205 GTi diff removal

    Hi all.

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    Is there any other way of removing the differential casing to remove the diff, apart dropping the whole box out??

    I got as far as lowering the gearbox side of the engine to find that it certainly doesnt go low enough to clear the cross member, and thus removing the diff that way.

    Haynes manual doesn't talk about final drives or diffs at all it seems.

    Any help, photos would be tops.

    Thanks lads.


    Julian

  2. #2
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    Yes, just pull the end housing off.
    You have to remove the link to the bottom mount so the engine and box can be moved, to allow clearance.
    Fitting a Quaife?
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by pug-life View Post
    Hi all.

    Is there any other way of removing the differential casing to remove the diff, apart dropping the whole box out??

    I got as far as lowering the gearbox side of the engine to find that it certainly doesnt go low enough to clear the cross member, and thus removing the diff that way.

    Haynes manual doesn't talk about final drives or diffs at all it seems.

    Any help, photos would be tops.

    Thanks lads.


    Julian

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Yes, just pull the end housing off.
    You have to remove the link to the bottom mount so the engine and box can be moved, to allow clearance.
    Fitting a Quaife?
    Graham
    So it can be done by just lowering one side of the engine you mean Graham?

    I removed the underside engine mount (the the d/s shaft runs through) but it didnt seam to go any lower.

    Quaife....I WISH! But no just fixing a noisy diff with a good 2nd one. Hoping its not the gearbox itself though...

  4. #4
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    Swing the engine for or aft, can't remember which way not looking at the car at the moment.
    What sort of noise?
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by pug-life View Post
    So it can be done by just lowering one side of the engine you mean Graham?

    I removed the underside engine mount (the the d/s shaft runs through) but it didnt seam to go any lower.

    Quaife....I WISH! But no just fixing a noisy diff with a good 2nd one. Hoping its not the gearbox itself though...

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Swing the engine for or aft, can't remember which way not looking at the car at the moment.
    What sort of noise?
    Graham
    So can definitely be achieved without removing the whole gearbox?

    The noise is a loud, almost vibration groaning sound (not grinding). Noise overcomes the sound of the engine. The noise is speed related....the faster you go the louder it is. Noise is apparent when clutch is engaged, disengaged or in neutral during motion.

    No noise when stationary or at idle. Gears select fine. But its definitely drive train related as i tested it on stands.

    Drives shafts good, also the bearing on the long shaft ok. Not wheel bearings. Occurs in reverse too.


    Julian

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    Graham means, unbolt the bottom engine mount, not either of the top ones. When you undo it you'll see what he means, the engine and gearbox can swing back and forth with ease. You should be able to move it as required then.
    Lets just say we have a few pugs about!

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    Ahhhhh I see! I'm going about it all the wrong way then.

    Ok awesome. Just had another play around with it, with no luck.

    Ill bolt both mounts back on tomorrow and give all the above ago with hopefully a bit of luck.

    Only other problem is removing whats left of the d/s mount

    see attached.

    Thanks for your help Graham / hipcrostino

    205 GTi diff removal-img_0828.jpg205 GTi diff removal-img_0827.jpg

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug-life View Post
    Quaife....I WISH! But no just fixing a noisy diff with a good 2nd one. Hoping its not the gearbox itself though..
    Lowering the subframe makes the task of removing the diff casing a lot easier. However! Diff noise is mostly attributed to a poorly machined/aligned crown wheel and pinion, not the differential itself. Removing the crown wheel is easy, but removing the pinion is a complete disassembly as the pinion is the end of of the output shaft.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pug-life View Post
    Ahhhhh I see! I'm going about it all the wrong way then.

    Ok awesome. Just had another play around with it, with no luck.

    Ill bolt both mounts back on tomorrow and give all the above ago with hopefully a bit of luck.

    Only other problem is removing whats left of the d/s mount

    see attached.

    Thanks for your help Graham / hipcrostino

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Use a hammer and chisel (or piece of bar) to remove the bottom of your broken engine mount. Place the chisel at an angle into one of the 4 slots in the metal part and give it a solid thump in the anti clockwise direction, you should be able to unscrew it by hand after the whack.

    You will not stop these engine mounts breaking until you limit the amount that the engine lifts at the mount. Have a look at any of the late model French cars to see what they have fitted. My 205 broke 3 or 4 before I fitted a engine/mount lift stop. None have broken since (5 years now).
    Present fleet:-
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  10. #10
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    Would the noise be the possible metal to metal contact caused by the stuffed mount? I certainly had this problem with a car I bought once.
    Graham



    Quote Originally Posted by pug-life View Post
    Ahhhhh I see! I'm going about it all the wrong way then.

    Ok awesome. Just had another play around with it, with no luck.

    Ill bolt both mounts back on tomorrow and give all the above ago with hopefully a bit of luck.

    Only other problem is removing whats left of the d/s mount

    see attached.

    Thanks for your help Graham / hipcrostino

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	36821Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts 504-504-504's Avatar
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    I like Grahams suggestion.
    Noises can emanate from unusual places.
    Once had a 4wd Subaroo wagon which suppenly started making a scarey sounding noise from the gearbox region.
    Turned out to be an empty cardboard box which had come to rest on the 4wd lever and was amplifying the gearbox noise.

    Paul.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    I never gave a thought to this. I gave a quick google search on a worn crown and pinion...and this is more like the sound it was experiencing. Once the diff and crown wheel is removed, will it be obvious that one or both of the pinion/crown wheel is worn/out of alignment? Thanks Peter thats a great help.

    Thanks BIGRR, ripper idea that should do the trick I reckon Cheers!

    Graham/504...I suppose it could have been partly the issue...but I doubt it. When I put it on the stands there was a clear sound stemming from the final drive region. And a quick google search on what Peter mentioned was similar to what it sounded like.

    Ill remove it today and see what i find....

    Thanks to all

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    If the alignment is not right you will see the wear pattern on the teeth. I think you might be able to google this too and find some images. One of my old BMW manuals (no longer with me) showed incorrect alignment wear patterns on the teeth. That was a "normal" hypoid gear arrangement but the idea is the same. In that case, you had to adjust pinion protrusion as well as diff position (side play). Ideally, a manual should show you the correct wear pattern which shows the mesh/wear print on the teeth and what to measure when adjusting the mesh. Not that I think the gear mesh on modern cars is adjustable any more.

    Here you go, some pictures to give you an idea:

    http://www.austin7.org/Technical%20A...ssion%20Noise/

    You can check this with engineer's blue (or prussian blue) - a sticky thin blue (yeah) paste applied to one of the parts, put the thing together and give it a whirl by hand (no oil, off the ground), pull apart again, inspect and adjust appropiately (if possible).
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 22nd November 2012 at 12:32 PM.
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    Ok.

    So i managed to remove the diff casing and the crown wheel.

    Inside the diff housing on the wall (next to the pinion, see zoomed photo) there is wear from the crown wheel on the diff housing wall.

    Now, this might be from me pushing the crown wheel back into the housing so the casing could be removed seperately. It looks fresh.

    There aren't really any obvious wear patterns on the crown wheel or pinion that I could see.

    And the diff seems to spin freely, much like the 2nd hand one I have which was known to be working fine before removal (from a fellow aussiefrogger)

    How would you know if any of its not aligned if there aren't any obvious telltale signs of wear? ?
    But also how would you know that the diff might be getting long in the tooth? ?

    See attached

    Julian
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 205 GTi diff removal-img_0835_2.jpg   205 GTi diff removal-img_0835.jpg   205 GTi diff removal-img_0836.jpg   205 GTi diff removal-img_0837.jpg  

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    The last clutch replacement was at 179k...cars now done 189k

    Clutch replaced by Prestige Quality Automotive, Chatswood, Sydney. Called him, and assured me they used the tool to align the clutch.

    He's calling me back with details from the service.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I don't think that is wear, looks more like damage you've done to the casing, irrelevant anyway.

    Can you take a picture of the crownwheel teeth square on? It's easier to see that way.

    Is there a way to check these are a matched pair? Someone might have changed one or the other or both with an unknown pair. Otherwise I can't see anything wrong there (short of checking the mesh with engineer's blue).

    Bearings fine?
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    The last clutch replacement was at 179k...cars now done 189k

    Clutch replaced by Prestige Quality Automotive, Chatswood, Sydney. Called him, and assured me they used the tool to align the clutch.

    He's calling me back with details from the service.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    The bearings on the diff?

    If so, they spin quite freely, no abnormal crunching sounds...

    The teeth on the crown wheel look 100% normal. All the same angle all the way around, no sign of any real wear.

    I'm thinking of putting it all back together, but can't be sure ive fixed the problem.

    Do I use the same diff or second hand one...knowing that the 2nd hand one was working normally?

    See attached
    Julian
    205 GTi diff removal-img_0840.jpg205 GTi diff removal-img_0841.jpg205 GTi diff removal-img_0842.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 205 GTi diff removal-img_0839.jpg  

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Check the bearings for pitting, marks, play, etc, don't just assume they are fine because they spin freely. You need to check how they behave under load to make sure they're fine.

    Look at the metal roller cage. Check the corners of the "windows" the rollers sit in against a brand new bearing. That is where you are going to see anything abnormal (wear).

    Once in, you need to check the side play in the diff if there's any (or on the contrary if there's none).

    And I would still check the gear mesh with engineer's blue to make sure the teeth mesh correctly. Your problem may not be evident just yet by just looking at wear.

    Judging form the pictures, it looks like the wear on the crownwheel is a bit offset to the side, is that true? Are you sure the crownwheel does not say rub on the side on the casing maybe? Maybe is just a smidge out on one side, enough to touch?

    There is also like a parallel hatching mark on the teeth, is that right (compared to the other pair you have)? I would expect to see a mirror shine on the teeth on the wear patch. Looks like there's some debris on the teeth there, is that dirt you put on after dismantling or was it there?
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 22nd November 2012 at 03:15 PM.
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    Yeah you raise some very relevant points Shlitz.

    I'll closely investigate that now and see what I find. I did though have a a fiddle with both diffs to see any difference in play or movement.

    But I suppose I wont be able to conclude on what Ive done until its all back together, and yes like you say check for side play or anything of the sort.

    Thanks mate.

    Cheers
    Julian

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    One thing when you check side play in the bearings after installing the diff, be careful what you push because the planetary outdrives have their own play.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts pug-life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    One thing when you check side play in the bearings after installing the diff, be careful what you push because the planetary outdrives have their own play.
    ZERO side play. fewww!! Made sure both spacers fit perfectly and the diff housing and crown wheel were perfectly aligned.

    Anyway I put the other diff in, replaced the all the engine mounts and buffers (which were long ago dead), putting new wheel bearings in...so hopefully it was one of those.

    Fingers crossed!

    I should be doing all this under my summer build thread...

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