anyone can get some parts for me in Aus? want anything from the UK?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default anyone can get some parts for me in Aus? want anything from the UK?

    My 604 is now running really badly. To get it right I will have to do a complete carburetter overhaul, and the wierd Solex setup isn't that good even when it's right.

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    So I am seriously considering "robs" idea to put a Falcon 3.9 EA throttle body on with megasquirt instead. I think that this will give considerably better fuel economy and driveability, plus I can hide it under the standard pancake filter and keep it all stock looking. Hopefully it wouldn't cost too much either.

    Problem is, there are no Ford Falcon EA parts lying around in the UK.

    Would anyone be up for getting a complete EA throttle body, plus injectors, plus all electrical connectors with a few inches of wire, and then posting it to the UK?

    Maybe someone wants some parts sent the other way in exchange?

  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Who's going to give you grief if you modernise it with multipoint injection? XM era manifolds and fuel rails will be cheap.

    RE: Stuff from the UK; Sara Watson would be a good start.

  3. #3
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    single point will be quicker, easier and cheaper to acheive, and would give me an easier path to LPG in the future if I decide to go that way
    I'm not looking for more power, just better economy and reliability
    and I quite like to keep it stock looking for my own preference

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    The best sources of good condition older Ford parts seem to be either inland NSW or South Australia. Ideally that will get you a throttle body which has done country mileages with less "throttlings" than a city car. Happy to be post/pack if you run into a stubborn Ebayer.

  5. #5
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    There were several EA Falcons in the (huge) wreckers I visited, but I only found one with TBI -- multipoint seems to have been a popular option. I'll be visiting there again though and would be happy to double check. I obviously didn't go on looking once I found a satisfactory one.

    They charged me $45 for mine which I thought was a good deal, but they're pretty arbitrary about pricing, so maybe it'll be more next time. Don't know about postage but, judging by eBay, it doesn't seem it can be too outrageous.

    It'll be good if you go down this path. Nice for us to be able to share tuning information. BTW, one thing that I'm mildly concerned about is vacuum advance. This throttle body doesn't have a vacuum advance port. I was planning to use the Megasquirt for fuel only, but this means I may end up having to set up for ignition control too.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  6. #6
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Who's going to give you grief if you modernise it with multipoint injection? XM era manifolds and fuel rails will be cheap.

    RE: Stuff from the UK; Sara Watson would be a good start.
    XM stuff sadly won't fit the odd fire heads
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    diesel' ,
    I am of the opinion that the twin choke Weber from a V6 Ford would be easier to find over your way. [Weber 38/27 DGAS].

  8. #8
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    in fact I have a pair of Weber 38DGAS carbs from V6 Fords, although one has missing choke flaps. I don't think that they will give the same economy and driveability of an electronic setup though. Mechanical chokes (whether manual or automatic) are a pain in the neck, especially in cold UK winters, and as I am an ex electronic design engineer I'm not afraid of setting up a Megasquirt.

    So if anyone in Aus want a Weber 38DGAS that would be an easy swap for me :-) I think that they would need a cleanup though.

    45 AUD is pretty cheap by UK standards. Even if I had to pay 75 that would still be okay.

    On the vacuum advance is there anything special about the vacuum that comes from the carb? I hear that some carbs don't feed vacuum at idle; is that the problem? If you just need manifold pressure can you just not punch a hole in the blanking plate that goes where the small carb went? If we need something that is "switched off" at idle then that could be done with a turbo diesel boost control solenoid, either switched by a microswitch of the throttle or maybe megasquirt controlled.

    My plan is something like this.

    1. Collect Falcon EA throttle body / injectors.
    2. Build Megasquirt.
    3. Fit Megasquirt to car whilst the carbs are still on it.
    4. Start adding sensors and connecting up megasquirt.
    5. Once all inputs to Megasquirt are working, remove carbs and fit throttle body and fuel pump.

    It just seems to me that as the engine is running it would be easier to fit megasquirt to a running engine and make sure that it detects revs, manifold pressure, coolant temp, lambda etc etc so that the fitting of the throttle body will just be one final incremental step rather than having to do a lot of fault finding because I have tried to do all the steps at once.

  9. #9
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    Vacuum advance is typically drawn from a port on the carburettor which gets atmospheric when the throttle's closed, and manifold vacuum once the throttle's opened a bit. As you say, a suitable solenoid can be wired up to do this, but firmware mods would be required.

    Your plan is pretty close to what I've been up to. You left out the fuel pump and filter, which bears a bit of thought. I have gone with a screw-on cartridge type fuel filter before the fuel pump, with the aim of using this as both a filter and surge tank. A bit of a concern using the filter draw-through, but I don't see why it shouldn't work. It'll also be interesting to see how much the fuel heats up -- as the return line feeds back into the filter and will most likely be returned to the throttle body. Guess time will tell.

    I was going to tap the water temp sensor on the flat side of the water pump between two pipes. There is room there OK. But then I spotted an old temperature vacuum switch in the valley below the manifold which was no longer connected (think it used to switch the heated air pick-up). Took out that switch, seemed a 3/8" NPT plug fitted the hole, so tapped a suitable thread for the temp sensor in that plug and that should be fine.

    I completely agree that fitting the MS to a running engine is the way to go. I already have log files of AFR vs RPM and MAP which will help me (I hope) when trying to get the thing going with injection. And I'll be disappointed if cold running, economy and responsiveness don't all improve considerably after a bit of tuning.

    I have been thinking of revisiting the wreckers in the next week or two with a view to getting another Volvo distributor so I can lock up the bobweights and still revert to the current distributor if MS doing timing doesn't work out so well. When I'm there, I'll scout around for another throttle body (BTW, the throttle body includes two low-Z injectors and two TPS -- why two? Beats me). I'll buy it anyway and, if you decide you don't want it, I'll keep it as a souvenir. Like you say, $45 isn't much.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  10. #10
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    If you get me those parts I will definitely be buying them off of you, no ifs or buts.
    Two questions:-

    1. Can you not just have a microswitch on the throttle cable which triggers a vacuum solenoid? or maybe detect it from TPS with an opamp or something?

    2. If the distributor is fed vacuum even when the engine is idling would it really matter? you can still remove the vacuum pipe to adjust the timing. It might mess up the idle speed a bit, but that is now computer controlled so I suspect it won't matter. I'm not exactly sure why you can't have vacuum advance when idling but isn't it something to do with torque to run ancilliaries and stuff. With computer controlled idle speed I think it won't matter.

    On the fuel filter and pump I will have to see what is readily and cheaply available in the UK that has the right kind of output pressure etc.

  11. #11
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    Didn't mean to imply you might "do the dirty" on me, just that it isn't really necessary for us to draw up a contract. I'd be happy to have a spare if you got a better offer. Anyhow, on with the questions:

    1. Um ... yes. Didn't think of that -- not really a hardware person so I guess I'm the proverbial man with a hammer -- everything looks like it should be done in code. Clearly a comparator on the TPS could cause things to switch at whatever opening you wanted. Microswitch is simpler still.

    2. It's not clear to me exactly why engines use ported vacuum. Many years ago I had a VW Kombi which (IIRC) fed full manifold vacuum to its distributor and seemed to run fine (for a Kombi). I think idling with retarded ignition means that idling runs hotter which helps clean up unburnt fuel in the exhaust. If this is the case, the only worry is that there will be a delay while the diaphragm retards the ignition when going from idle to full throttle (e.g. traffic light drag). This might lead to detonation.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i'd be using the existing return line which will save heating up the fuel too much and it's already there so why not use it ??
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  13. #13
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    Hi-May stand to be corrected but was not the carbied 604 'easier' on fuel that the Volvo V6.[in Europe.

    The 'go' here used to be Volvo electronic ignition & the DGAS carbie only -removing the Aussie pollution front single.

    I remember taking one for a cruise many moons ago quietly sitting 128 mph.-that was about 10 above the standard 604.

    May be you would like to check that out b4 you let the dgassers go.

    Always thought it would be nice to have one just in case I needed one some day.

    Cheers.
    Pekay

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts BIGRR's Avatar
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    Bigger hills in Victoria than around Parkes!!!!
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    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo View Post
    i'd be using the existing return line which will save heating up the fuel too much and it's already there so why not use it ??
    I'd like to use it, but the fuel pump I'm using has a 10mm inlet pipe and the fuel tank only has a 8mm outlet. With only a gravity feed from tank to pump I'm worried about starving the pump for fuel. Using a decent sized fuel filter with a large outlet should be able to recycle the fuel from the return line and avoid any starvation. If the fuel gets too warm with this arrangement, plan B is to hook up an electric lift pump at the tank and flow the return line all the way back to the tank as you suggest.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs View Post
    I'd like to use it, but the fuel pump I'm using has a 10mm inlet pipe and the fuel tank only has a 8mm outlet. With only a gravity feed from tank to pump I'm worried about starving the pump for fuel. Using a decent sized fuel filter with a large outlet should be able to recycle the fuel from the return line and avoid any starvation. If the fuel gets too warm with this arrangement, plan B is to hook up an electric lift pump at the tank and flow the return line all the way back to the tank as you suggest.

    Have fun,

    Rob.
    i don't think you will strike any problems in that the pump will be sucking through that gravity fed line and so long as there is fuel in the tank the pump will get fuel

    the standard pump supplies far too mcuh for the standard carbs at any rate so i think you will be fine with the electric pump and using the original return line
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pekay49 View Post
    Hi-May stand to be corrected but was not the carbied 604 'easier' on fuel that the Volvo V6.[in Europe.

    The 'go' here used to be Volvo electronic ignition & the DGAS carbie only -removing the Aussie pollution front single.

    I remember taking one for a cruise many moons ago quietly sitting 128 mph.-that was about 10 above the standard 604.

    May be you would like to check that out b4 you let the dgassers go.

    Always thought it would be nice to have one just in case I needed one some day.

    Cheers.
    Pekay
    in correct tune a 604 will and has been proven to do so by the public and the factory that the car will return 20 mpg when cruising at 180km/h

    now then my mothers car would consistently return 28-30mpg between bundanoon and moss vale when we lived there and when the car was used (this was rare considering the car only had 18k on it when she sold it when it was 10/11 year old)
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x 2018 3008

    1 x 2000 Citroen XM,

    1 x '98 306 GTi6 sadly sold

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Default anyone can get some parts for me in Aus? want anything from the UK?

    Remember the Volvo V6 version had kjet mechanical injection which while it is very reliable is a primitive system and modern EFi would kick it in the balls economy wise.
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
    404, project
    2010 Mitsubishi i MiEV electric car

  19. #19
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    Rob, have you figured out how you will do idle control? (it's not compulsory, see http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_arti...le_tuning.html )

    The megasquirt seems to be made with the assumption that you have an IAC valve, but the Falcon EA doesn't have this. According to my Falcon EA Haynes manual page 4-9 there is "An Idle Tracking Switch (ITS) determines when the throttle level has contracted the ISC-DCM" which is the idle control motor thingy.

    My understanding of this is that when the accelerator pedal is released the throttle lever drops onto the top of the ISC-DCM which detects that this has happened as it has a switch inside. This would change the ECU from a mode in which it listens to the TPS, to a mode where it ignores the TPS and idles the engine by use of the ISC-DCM which opens and closes the throttle by ECU control instead of your right foot. In fact in this idle mode the TPS is going to be moving around because the ISC-DCM is moving the throttle.

    Having a quick read of megasquirt I think that this is not designed the same way, and in fact the TPS moving around will be interpreted by Megasquirt as meaning that you are pressing the pedal and so not in idle mode anymore (maybe, I kind of made that up).

    The Megasquirt way that is to buy a separate IAC valve, and maybe plumb it in using the other small carb mounting ??

    Another way I am thinking might be to do it the Ford way but if the ITS switch indicates that the throttle arm is on the ISC-DCM then we have to indicate to Megasquirt that it is now in idle mode and should ignore TPS (not sure if standard firmware can do that), or as a nasty cludge maybe the ITS switch could actually disconnect the TPS and switch in a different resistance value which fools the Megasquirt that the TPS is in the idle position?

    Maybe this switch could also cut vacuum to the distributor as well...

    Another option I wondered about was this. At idle normally there is no vacuum to the distributor which retard timing and this slows down idle. How effective would it be to use the Megasquirt IAC output to control vacuum to the distributor instead? But you would still need an idle switch to put the distributor in fully vacuum mode with not idling I guess.

    Anyway what are your thoughts?

    For me a closed loop idle control is a must because I am used to diesels and I must have a rock solid idle.

  20. #20
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    I haven't given idle much thought. My 505 has no special stuff for idle and idles better with the MS than it did with the original injection. But I did retain the Bosch air valve for warmup. From this I have guessed that the 604 will idle fine when hot, but will probably need some extra air to keep it running when cold.

    I'm using the MS2/Extra firmware (http://www.msextra.com) which offers quite a few enhancements for closed loop idle control. It includes the no-hardware option of adjusting the ignition timing to hold idle steady. I haven't seen the need with my 505, but there are plenty of people who sound delighted with the solid idle this gives them. Tweaking ignition advance can clearly have a much more immediate effect than shifting an air valve. But this takes us back down the path of using MS for ignition control. Metering the vacuum to the distributor (as you suggest) is an interesting way to achieve a similar effect, but I suspect it would be tricky to set up and not as responsive.

    As for my thoughts, I haven't thought that much about it beyond vaguely expecting it to be fine when warm. Ideas for cold running run from hooking up the Holley's old choke cable (hack), to a cold idle air valve (just adding a fixed amount of air when coolant temp is below x) to a proper IAC setup. Now you have me thinking of grabbing the Ford throttle nudger setup at the wrecker's too, since it shares its mounts with the throttle body.

    For now, I'm in the midst of making an adaptor for the throttle body to manifold. Not as easy as I'd hoped because some of the studs overlap without lining up, but two plates connected by a tube will get the job done. Have to decide how long to make the tube so that the Falcon air cleaner clears the engine but doesn't hit the bonnet. Once that's all sorted out there's just fuel pump and fuel line to set up (return line needs to be 8mm rather than 6mm) and should be ready to see if it fires up. At current progress, I'd hope to be up to that in two weeks.

    You might like to explore the options in both the original and extra versions of the MS firmware. You can download the free version of Tuner Studio http://www.tunerstudio.com (Java app) and download whatever version of the firmware you're interested in. The whole tuning user interface is defined in a .INI file that comes with the firmware. You can then install the ini file and run Tuner Studio in off line mode to see what the menus have on offer -- for idle control and everything else.

    Have fun,

    Rob.

  21. #21
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    I have been looking at idle valves on ebay. There seems to be plenty of stuff for peanuts, so I think maybe the thing to do is put a normal idle valve from something else onto the inlet manifold where the small carb normally goes. This would make it a "normal" system that Megasquirt is intended for so will probably work.

  22. #22
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    Default 604

    hi
    years ago i remenber someone did conversion with holden stuff.,i think it is af member called rally try contact him by email or pm.there is recent thread about 505 power sterring ,and he is in one of the replys . good luck
    ron

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