405 Mi16 For Gravel Rallies?
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Thread: 405 Mi16 For Gravel Rallies?

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    mlb
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    Default 405 Mi16 For Gravel Rallies?

    Has anyone converted an Mi16 to compete on gravel? There's plenty on using them for circuits, but no real discussion on the dirtier form of motor sport. I know there's not that much to do to make then suitable for tarmac, however would the stock suspension etc easily hold up to the rigours of rallying? If not, what's out there in suitable set ups?

    This is just an initial, back of the envelope, musing to decide whether to pursue it further.

    Thanks

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    Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlb View Post
    Has anyone converted an Mi16 to compete on gravel? There's plenty on using them for circuits, but no real discussion on the dirtier form of motor sport. I know there's not that much to do to make then suitable for tarmac, however would the stock suspension etc easily hold up to the rigours of rallying? If not, what's out there in suitable set ups?

    This is just an initial, back of the envelope, musing to decide whether to pursue it further.

    Thanks

    Matt
    I did a toe in the water exercise with a 405 but found it lacking in ground clearance.
    It also understeered a lot but this could be fixed by suspension set up, I was using the base model (but 16 valve engine, the one 405 racer has been using for a couple of years!) springs and shocks, these are a bit taller than Mi so Mi would be way too low standard.
    Certainly heaps of strength in both the body and suspension.
    This car recorded fastest 2wd time in an autocross so on smooth events could be a good thing.
    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I did a toe in the water exercise with a 405 but found it lacking in ground clearance.
    It also understeered a lot but this could be fixed by suspension set up, I was using the base model (but 16 valve engine, the one 405 racer has been using for a couple of years!) springs and shocks, these are a bit taller than Mi so Mi would be way too low standard.
    Certainly heaps of strength in both the body and suspension.
    This car recorded fastest 2wd time in an autocross so on smooth events could be a good thing.
    Graham

    Oatsy was running his Mi16 at Kyneton autocross and was a constant class winner so no doubt there just as capable on dirt but Grahams right about the ground clearence. Oatsy smashed the gearbox casing from running off the track and destroyed the car.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Oatsy was running his Mi16 at Kyneton autocross and was a constant class winner so no doubt there just as capable on dirt but Grahams right about the ground clearence. Oatsy smashed the gearbox casing from running off the track and destroyed the car.
    Presumably because it wasn't considered worthwhile to replace the box?

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    yeah thats right Graham. The rest of the car was a piece of junk!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cav91 View Post
    yeah thats right Graham. The rest of the car was a piece of junk!
    True it was bad but it showed what there potential was.
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    Peugeot Italy ran them in the Italian rally champs in the early 90 s both 2wd and the 4 wd one , they got good results. No real development as the 309 gti was developed as a grp a 2wd option with the same running gear but lighter.

    I would think a 405 here would go fairly well.
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    For all the expense though 306 s16 would be better
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    306 is a bit low too.
    It was really brought home to me at the rallysprint last Saturday just how good the 205 is in rough and tough conditions.
    The Italian 405s were used on bitumen rallies in the main if not exclusively.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by 205 Maxi View Post
    For all the expense though 306 s16 would be better

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    Thanks guys, You've confirmed what I was thinking. Even with underbody protection I think things will come to harm. I just wasn't sure if there was am off the shelf solution to increase the ride height without sacrificing the Mi16 handling too much. I think the Mi16 would struggle with some of the snotty parts we sometimes use down here - some of which the Evo struggles with.

    It actually surprised me how well these cars do handle on gravel. I had a bit of a blast coming back from a rally a while back and was impressed with how planted the car felt.

    I may just keep it for hillclimbs, both tarmac and gravel, and save myself the expense of a cage.

    Matt
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    Yes brilliant, that's why I wanted to give one a try.
    Understeer was on tight dusty tracks.
    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by mlb View Post
    Thanks guys, You've confirmed what I was thinking. Even with underbody protection I think things will come to harm. I just wasn't sure if there was am off the shelf solution to increase the ride height without sacrificing the Mi16 handling too much. I think the Mi16 would struggle with some of the snotty parts we sometimes use down here - some of which the Evo struggles with.

    It actually surprised me how well these cars do handle on gravel. I had a bit of a blast coming back from a rally a while back and was impressed with how planted the car felt.

    I may just keep it for hillclimbs, both tarmac and gravel, and save myself the expense of a cage.

    Matt

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    My 405 is buckets of fun on tarmac, but I have no desire to take it off the black stuff. For banging on gravel, I'd pic a 504 every day, but it would need a heart transplant to get some power. There are some guys just outside Devonport that did exactly that with an orange 74 model 504 I sold them years ago. It has been sold on now, but they had it going great. My daily driver is a 306, and while it is fun to drive, it would be well down my list of options for gravel rally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by racing405 View Post
    My 405 is buckets of fun on tarmac, but I have no desire to take it off the black stuff. For banging on gravel, I'd pic a 504 every day, but it would need a heart transplant to get some power. There are some guys just outside Devonport that did exactly that with an orange 74 model 504 I sold them years ago. It has been sold on now, but they had it going great. My daily driver is a 306, and while it is fun to drive, it would be well down my list of options for gravel rally.
    I know the 504 you're talking about. Unfortunately the engine suffered from oil starvation at Symmons Plains a few years back and Will and Tim were in the middle of rebuilding it when Will took ill. Tim and his father now have a 323 - among their many other cars - which they have used for a couple of rallies this season.

    I would like to use the 505 for rallying, but it would require too much spent on it to be anywhere near suitable. Something that I can't justify. I wouldn't want to spend up to $2,000 for a cage on an unsuitable car that I would only be using for club level events anyway.

    Back to the drawing board methinks.

    Matt
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    Matt, If you do want a 505 mine is available with cage, sump guard, boot mounted tank etc. and Thanos' suspension, it handles far better than any RWD Peugeot I have had before. Very cheap at the moment as the new engine hasn't been fitted, it has a bog stock XN1 with dodgy 4 speed.
    Otherwise use the 405, you already have it and good underbody protection would get you through the rough bits.
    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by mlb View Post
    I know the 504 you're talking about. Unfortunately the engine suffered from oil starvation at Symmons Plains a few years back and Will and Tim were in the middle of rebuilding it when Will took ill. Tim and his father now have a 323 - among their many other cars - which they have used for a couple of rallies this season.

    I would like to use the 505 for rallying, but it would require too much spent on it to be anywhere near suitable. Something that I can't justify. I wouldn't want to spend up to $2,000 for a cage on an unsuitable car that I would only be using for club level events anyway.

    Back to the drawing board methinks.

    Matt

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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    Matt, If you do want a 505 mine is available with cage, sump guard, boot mounted tank etc. and Thanos' suspension, it handles far better than any RWD Peugeot I have had before. Very cheap at the moment as the new engine hasn't been fitted, it has a bog stock XN1 with dodgy 4 speed.
    Otherwise use the 405, you already have it and good underbody protection would get you through the rough bits.
    Graham
    Thanks Graham,

    Having just spent the drive to work deciding I'll take 12 months to get the Mi16 up to scratch, this throws a spanner in works as it is very tempting. The engine and gearbox is not an issue as I have my good engine and gearbox here. And I think it would be a far more economical and painless option instead of converting the 405.

    If I decide to get rid of the 505, you're welcome to the engine with your old Wade 240 cam and Thanos' adjustable cam pulley if needed.

    Mat
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    I'm building the special Douvrin engine at the moment so no need for the XN.
    You could even take over that project too if you want but there will be about $2000 worth of costs at Crankies to be paid.
    I would stick this in an STi I picked up on Tuesday for a survey/outback trip car if the 505 rally car goes.
    I like the idea of the 505 rally car for longer events but also like the idea of concentrating just on the 205.
    Graham


    Quote Originally Posted by mlb View Post
    Thanks Graham,

    Having just spent the drive to work deciding I'll take 12 months to get the Mi16 up to scratch, this throws a spanner in works as it is very tempting. The engine and gearbox is not an issue as I have my good engine and gearbox here. And I think it would be a far more economical and painless option instead of converting the 405.

    If I decide to get rid of the 505, you're welcome to the engine with your old Wade 240 cam and Thanos' adjustable cam pulley if needed.

    Mat

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    I've still got this hankering.
    The Mi16 engine is together but I drove the 205 today and really there is nothing wrong with the engine in that.
    I would like to built a more professional rally car using a 16v engine and a really good S2 205 shell that I have but there is the problem of me and a current spec cage (with Sainz bar on the front legs and roof bars) fitting into a 205 together, just not enough room and I'm of average build.
    Also, the seam welding needed with a 205 would be unnecessary with a the body strength of a 405, the wiring is also OK in a 405 and there is room under the guards for normal size 195 65 15 rally tyres (I think). I have 175 70 14 D-Macks at the moment for the 205 and just waiting for these to become unavailable!
    The ground clearance problems can be fixed by decent suspension and plenty of underbody protection.
    So, I have changed my entry for the Kyneton Autocross next weekend to my 405 SRi.
    There are Mi16 and Diesel 405s also entered in this event so more information after this.

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    You clearly need a manager.

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    Wowser, more cars in peugeot class again. No luck with the gti coming down ?


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    I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    You clearly need a manager.

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    More point in running the 405 and it goes harder than the standard DKZ in the GTi which is a pretty ordinary car and I don't have to tow it there!
    michael_ozzie likes this.

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    After sleeping on it I have decided to abandon my long standing plan to built the fresh car (205 or 405) and will go ahead with the 16 valve conversion this week.
    Leave the GTi on the entry list for now Michael.
    CAMS rules changes have resulted in many changes of cars for me over the years, this time they may have locked me in because of the cage requirements. Just too dangerous to drive on the road without helmets.

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