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  1. #1
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    engine change

    Just checkin, but will an 1982 505 engine bolt straight up to a manual gearbox in a 1970 504?

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    JoFuS

  2. #2
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    yes it will the only thing you will need to remember with this conversion is to put early type engine mounts on your block

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    What? I was told the mounts were the same and I would only have to mess around with the emissions?

    What is the full story with this conversion?
    1982 505 Gr INTO a 1970 504.

    Also, will the brake calipers off the 505 fit the 504?
    JoFuS

  4. #4
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    Yes, The cross members are different, pre 1975 or so. Just unbolt the early mounts from the original 1800 engine. Incidentaly if you want to fit a later rack and pinion you will need to change the cross member.
    The 505 calipers won't fit as the hydraulic pipes changed from imperial to metric threads in 1976 or so.

    Regards, Graham Wallis

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    Is there anything else I should fit to the 504 (1970) From the 505 Gr?

    And will a set of TRX 390mm wheels fit under the rear guards of a 504?

    Also, The original 1800 engine is coming out because, the oil is full of STUFF (god knows what),(maybe rust) and it is pumping oil (rusty colour and thin) up through the oil breather, into the air filter and THEN DOWN THE CARBY!!!!

    It still CAN run tho until the oil actually starts going down the carby. It seems to idle ok (sounds like they should) but when u give it some gas, it sounds like its only running on 3 cyl.

    Is this engine totally done for?
    JoFuS

  6. #6
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    GRAHAM WALLIS:
    Incidentaly if you want to fit a later rack and pinion you will need to change the cross member.
    I fitted a 1971 rack to my 1977/78 504. I just had to file out one of the holes in the rack by about 4mm or so. This worked well because it moved the rack 4mm or so to the left, which helped the steering coupling clear my extractors. The coupling always hit the extractors with the 77 rack.

    Jofus,

    It might be worth fitting these things to your 504 from the 505:

    -rear springs (often 10% or so stiffer unless they've had a hard life)
    -rear shocks (if it still has the original black Peugeot shocks.
    -rear trailing arms (widens the rear track). You may need the longer 505 driveshafts for this. If you use cheviot mags, then you won't have enough room to fit the 505 trailing arms, since the Cheviot mags widen the track alot as it is.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  7. #7
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    82' 505 and Crusin':
    The original 1800 engine is coming out because, the oil is full of STUFF (god knows what),(maybe rust) and it is pumping oil (rusty colour and thin) up through the oil breather, into the air filter and THEN DOWN THE CARBY!!!!

    It still CAN run tho until the oil actually starts going down the carby. It seems to idle ok (sounds like they should) but when u give it some gas, it sounds like its only running on 3 cyl.

    Is this engine totally done for?
    sounds like water in the oil caused by either:

    -blown headgasket
    -cooked cylinder liner seals
    -cracked head

    For some reason their seems to be a few 1.8 litre 504 motors around with cracked heads, although all 404/504/505 1.6/18/2.0 heads are prone to cracking between the valves and sparkplugs if cooked. If you scrape away the carbon in these areas, you can usually see if there are cracks.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

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    what about the TRX 390mm wheels? will they fit under the 504 rear guards?
    JoFuS

  9. #9
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    82' 505 and Crusin':
    what about the TRX 390mm wheels? will they fit under the 504 rear guards?
    Yeah, they fit no worries, but goodluck finding tyres.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

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    heheheh, i already got the TRX Tires
    JoFuS

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    Dave,
    The racks were made that way so you couldn't fit the wrong rack to the wrong crossmember.The rack height was shifted to make room for the power steering ram and the cross member then changed to compensate.
    The rack height will be out by 10mm if you mix the racks and cross members.

    Regards, Graham

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    Will the exhaust from the 505 fit on the 504 or vise versa?
    JoFuS

  13. #13
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    82' 505 and Crusin':
    Will the exhaust from the 505 fit on the 504 or vise versa?
    If it won't, then it will be awfully close, because they look pretty much the same to me, as far as the bends, muffler placements and brackets are concerned. The floor pan of the 505 is actually identical to post 1978 504s and almost the same for earlier 504s. I don't think the 1978 floorpan changes affected anything to do with the exhaust system.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

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    Can I use the 504 Radiator with the 505 engine?

    And would the 504 carbie give better performance?
    JoFuS

  15. #15
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    82' 505 and Crusin':
    Can I use the 504 Radiator with the 505 engine?

    And would the 504 carbie give better performance?
    You can use the 504 radiator with the 505 engine, but you will either need to fit an early 504 water pump and early hoses, OR you can use a late (1979 on) 504 top radiator hose and keep using the 505 water pump that's on there.

    The early 504 2 litre carbie will probably give about the same performance, but it is more reliable due to the manual choke.

    I would advise fitting a richer jet in the second throat (around 145-160, i.e. 1.45mm-1.60mm) to avoid pinking with the 8.8:1 pistons. You probably won't be able to buy a bigger jet but you can pull the current one out and use a jewelers drill to drill it out to the larger size. Some carburetor specialists also have special drills for enlarging jets.

    The 8.8:1 compression 505 engines are renowned for pinking (and subsequent piston failure) and this would be largely due to the small jets, since the 1980 model 505 had a 160 jet in the second throat and didn't suffer from this problem. Better to use a tiny bit more fuel, than destroy your engine.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  16. #16
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    Is it nesesery to add emissions gear from the 505 to the 504?

    The 504 fuel tank doesn't have a vent pipe to the emission box when the 505 does?

    Is it needed at all?

    Please Explain
    JoFuS

  17. #17
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    82' 505 and Crusin':
    Is it nesesery to add emissions gear from the 505 to the 504?

    The 504 fuel tank doesn't have a vent pipe to the emission box when the 505 does?

    Is it needed at all?

    Please Explain
    OK, this all depends on how strict the laws are in the ACT. In NSW the rule is that if you put a newer engine in an older car, the engine must keep all its emissions gear, however most people just remove the emissions gear (in cases like yours) and pass the newer engine off as the older type. This means not leaving the engine with any obviously blanked off emissions gear, incase somebody inspects your engine. If you plan to have the engine number officially changed by the registry office, they will probably realise that it is a newer engine (from the number) and you can get caught out. To satisfy the insurance, government, etc, some 504 owners I know just file off the engine numbers on all their 504 engines and give them all the same number (the number of the origianl engine in their car). This way no matter what engine they put in their car, if it is checked it will seem all original. Of course, this is provided they don't decided to do a forensic check on your block (highly unlikely unless you actually ask to have them change the engine number on the rego papers). Restamping the engine block is illegal of course, but this is a Pug in Australia, not a Holden or Ford that is likely to be stolen.

    As far as insurance copanies are concerned. the most important thing is that the numbers on the policy agree with the numbers on the car. That's why I always make sure the number on the policy is the CHASSIS number, not the engine number (they accept either when you aplly for the policy).

    With 504s, 404s etc, the original engine number is usually the same as the body number except that the engine number has an "X" on the end of it.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  18. #18
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    I just got a weber 32/36 Dgav, Is there anything I should know before i try to fit it?

    Will it fit straight up?
    JoFuS

  19. #19
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    82' 505 and Crusin':
    I just got a weber 32/36 Dgav, Is there anything I should know before i try to fit it?

    Will it fit straight up?
    The Weber has the same bolt pattern as the Pug manifold, but you will have to file out the mouth of the manifold to match the diameters of the Weber throats and also the spacing between the throats (because the Weber throats are spaced further aprt than the Solex throats). You can fit the Solex barrel shaped cable attachement thingy straight onto the Weber, just be sure it clears all the fittings on the Weber (sometimes takes a little bit of judicious filing). You will also need to bolt a piece of metal on somewhere to act as a stop for the circular spring that goes on the cable attachment thingy. I usually bolt a piece of 1/2" steel flatbar to one of the bolts that holds the carby down.

    As far as the aircleaner goes most of the after market Weber aircleaners are a bit small and of poor quality chrome, etc. You can use the early 504 oilbath aircleaner, but you'll have to cut the rubber thing that goes on top of the carby to match the Weber. If you have one of the plastic things from inside a Cortina/Excort aircleaner, you can use it to clamp the Peugeot rubber to the top of the Weber. You will then have to redrill a couple of holes in the aircleaner mountings, so it can move a little to the left, because with the 505 manifold the carby sits further to the left. How you cut the rubber thing, will also help take up some of this right-left aircleaner missalignment.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  20. #20
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    hmmmmmm.......... i see.....
    JoFuS

  21. #21
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    Directed to DavE

    I guess you have seen this conversion done before, How does it turn out.

    Will I notice a difference between a factory 2.0 504 and my 504 with the 505 engine?

    Or will it be like a regular pug 504?
    JoFuS

  22. #22
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    82' 505 and Crusin':
    Directed to DavE

    I guess you have seen this conversion done before, How does it turn out.

    Will I notice a difference between a factory 2.0 504 and my 504 with the 505 engine?

    Or will it be like a regular pug 504?
    We'll, actually 1979 onwards 504s had the same engine as the 505 (and Euro 504s from 1975 had the same head), so I've seen a few different permutations of the various types of setups ina 504. I've fitted Weber carbs to a few 504s/404s.

    It's hard to say if you'll notice any difference because every engine varies. If your 505 engine is in as good or better condition as your 504 engine, then you should notice a slight power and torque improvemnt over the ealry 504 engine, particularly if you use the Weber and have it tuned well on a chassis dyno. If you don't have the money to get it tuned on a dyno, then standard Ford jets usuually work OK on a standard 504 or 505 engine (usually 140 main jets on both throats and 160 air corrector jets on both throats). One guy in the Vic club wrote an article about fitting a Weber to his 504. He used a CO meter to tune his carb and used a 145 jet on the first throat with a 155 air corrector and a 150 jet on the second throat with a 150 air corrector. On my friends automatic 504 with 8.8:1 pistons we used a 140 jet in the first throat and a 145 in the second (it has a Holley copy of a Weber). Any less than this and I think it would start pinking. Personally with the 505 engine, as a starting point I'd be inclined to use a 140 or 145 in the first throat and a 160 in the second throat. The standard 160 air correctors should be fine as a starting point. A smaller air corrector will richen the top half of the rev range, a larger one will do the opposite. Dropping three sizes (e.g. 160 to 145) in an air corrector richens the mixture in the top half of the rev range by approximately the same amount as going up one size in the main jet (0.05mm, e.g 140 to 145).

    Chances are wou will notice a performance improvement, but I'm not prepared to guarantee it, because there are so many variables that affect the performance of engines compared with each other. Some just turn out to be Gems, while others are dogs. I don't think Pug engines vary as much as some others, but they do vary.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  23. #23
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    well i have done this swap and started it up today.

    It started first go but it was blowing a little smoke. I had it running for about 5 min. I then checked the water and to my dissapointment, the water was foamy

    The engine was good and had been tuned before it was removed from the 505.

    What does this mean?
    JoFuS

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