505gti starter motor
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  1. #1
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    Default 505gti starter motor

    I've just spent Sunday on my back removing the starter in the 505gti II. After 50 years mucking about with cars that top bolt takes the gold star for the most difficult one I ever have done. My question is,I seem to remember an old post that said that the thing works OK with just the two bolts holding it - has anyone any experience with this?

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  2. #2
    Tadpole
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    Hi
    they work better with all of them in, and yes they are a marathon. it is possible to get it in. the later generation short starter go straight in and are a lot easier

    Chris

  3. #3
    cjl
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    I found removing the insulation in front of the heater and lowering the cross member gives a little more room and makes the world of difference, and it helps if you know lots of rude words!! It also helps heaps that I now have a 2 post hoist and no longer have to lay on the ground without room to move and not being able to see what I am doing while dirt and grit falls in your eyes.
    Good luck with it.
    Chris.
    1975 504
    1985 505 STI with V6
    1992 505 wagon
    1969 404

  4. #4
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    Don't forget to undo the steering flector when lowering the crossmember!
    Use head bolts to hold the crossmember when lowered.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by cjl View Post
    I found removing the insulation in front of the heater and lowering the cross member gives a little more room and makes the world of difference, and it helps if you know lots of rude words!! It also helps heaps that I now have a 2 post hoist and no longer have to lay on the ground without room to move and not being able to see what I am doing while dirt and grit falls in your eyes.
    Good luck with it.
    Chris.
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 29th October 2012 at 09:57 AM. Reason: crossmember, not column

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! TassieExec's Avatar
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    Hi
    Many people lower the cross member as has been suggested, not heard of having to remove the insulation, however I don't do that, I simply use long extensions for the socket drive, 3/8 is a little easier fit and use a universal before the socket and come in from beside the gear lear linkage and over the gear box, at the same time using my left hand to reach up around the bell housing to locate the socket, with a little practice it's a pretty simple job and I can have one out in half an hour easily. Wiloe I can understand your frustration, particurlarly if this is your first time, I would never reccommend leaving the top bolt out.
    Regards
    Neil

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Ikenna351's Avatar
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    Welcome to the club of douvrin starters!

    It appears ZDJL and ZN3J starters are nightmares to remove and install back. My 505 v6 starter solenoid has been giving me a lot of headache. The solenoids clicks alot (the bendix depresses) but the motor wont spin. But sometimes, if i bypassed the power from the relay to battery + terminal head, it would crank. But sometimes, the motor would refuse to spin, even with the bypassing.

    Removing the starter, which is under the engine on the right side, can be a nightmare. It takes ages to finally bring out. I dont remove anything, be it cross member or anyother thing that obstructs one hand getting into that hole on top of the starter. I will just keep pushing in my hand until i touch the two bolts that hold the starter to the bellhousing.

    The starter on ZN3J had 2 bolts that hold it to the bellhousing. But there is another two holes at the tail of the starter where another 2 bolts are supposed to put in and bolt the starter tail to the engine block. But in mine, the two bolts at the starter tail were removed and were not put back. Only the 2 bolts on the bellhousing end is holding the starter.

    So i was wondering, would the missing 2 bolts be the cause of the solenoid not spinning the starter motor? Could it be that the starter is lacking enough ground to spin the motor because the missing 2 bolts are supposed to provide more grounds to the starter? Must the starter on ZDJL and ZN3J need the 4 bolts to work well?

    Ikenna.
    Last edited by Ikenna351; 29th October 2012 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikenna351 View Post
    Welcome to the club of douvrin starters!

    It appears ZDJL and ZN3J starters are nightmares to remove and install back. My 505 v6 starter solenoid has been giving me a lot of headache. The solenoids clicks alot (the bendix depresses) but the motor wont spin. But sometimes, if i bypassed the power from the relay to battery + terminal head, it would crank. But sometimes, the motor would refuse to spin, even with the bypassing.

    Removing the starter, which is under the engine on the right side, can be a nightmare. It takes ages to finally bring out. I dont remove anything, be it cross member or anyother thing that obstructs one hand getting into that hole on top of the starter. I will just keep pushing in my hand until i touch the two bolts that hold the starter to the bellhousing.

    The starter on ZN3J had 2 bolts that hold it to the bellhousing. But there is another two holes at the tail of the starter where another 2 bolts are supposed to put in and bolt the starter tail to the engine block. But in mine, the two bolts at the starter tail were removed and were not put back. Only the 2 bolts on the bellhousing end is holding the starter.

    So i was wondering, would the missing 2 bolts be the cause of the solenoid not spinning the starter motor? Could it be that the starter is lacking enough ground to spin the motor because the missing 2 bolts are supposed to provide more grounds to the starter? Must the starter on ZDJL and ZN3J need the 4 bolts to work well?

    Ikenna.
    Nah,

    The symptoms you describe mean that the solenoid contacts are dirty or the solenoid housing has goo in it. 604 starter removal is apparently much easier with the starter side steering rack bolt out and the rack dropped on that side (don't need to do the flector)

    Did a 505 GTi starter some time back by the hug the bellhousing method. Replaced with a short starter which went straight in.

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! TassieExec's Avatar
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    Hi
    Several people have mentioned a short starter? wondering what make and model these are and how they make it easier to fit since the bolts would still have to be reached from the rear of the bell housing???

    Regards
    Neil

  9. #9
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    I thought the Peugeot ones were all "short". The difficulty is with the bolts.
    If you tried to fit a full length Renault one you would find it difficult.
    Graham

  10. #10
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    Hi` Froggers. Re a 505gti rebuild of motor,how hard are they to work on? Ifound one yesterday with the timing belt covers off .the owner was trying to determine cause of stopage months ago and gave up. The body and seats etc all in good nic.Iam undercided about taking on this amount of work .Car is1985 gti auto with big motor 2800cc so iam told .Advice please.Tommfrog.

  11. #11
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    It will be a 2.2 unless it is a V6, unlikely.
    Possibly a broken timing belt?
    Would need a few valves replaced, easy to get hold of as there are plenty of unused engines lying about. I have a good engine going begging. This is from an STI with mechanical injection but would work fine in a GTi if you changed the inlet manifold across.
    Head itself easy to remove but lots of stuff around it in a standard car.
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by tomfrog View Post
    Hi` Froggers. Re a 505gti rebuild of motor,how hard are they to work on? Ifound one yesterday with the timing belt covers off .the owner was trying to determine cause of stopage months ago and gave up. The body and seats etc all in good nic.Iam undercided about taking on this amount of work .Car is1985 gti auto with big motor 2800cc so iam told .Advice please.Tommfrog.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Ikenna351's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Llewellyn View Post
    Nah,

    The symptoms you describe mean that the solenoid contacts are dirty or the solenoid housing has goo in it. 604 starter removal is apparently much easier with the starter side steering rack bolt out and the rack dropped on that side (don't need to do the flector)

    Did a 505 GTi starter some time back by the hug the bellhousing method. Replaced with a short starter which went straight in.

    Please, could you explain more what you mean by "the solenoid contacts are dirty or the solenoid housing has goo in it"? Which of the contacts? I do know that the contact where the wire from ignition switch goes into the solenoid is clean. I don't understand what you mean by "goo" ?

    Am ordering for another solenoid today. But i want to be sure before i do so.

    Ikenna.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikenna351 View Post
    Please, could you explain more what you mean by "the solenoid contacts are dirty or the solenoid housing has goo in it"? Which of the contacts? I do know that the contact where the wire from ignition switch goes into the solenoid is clean. I don't understand what you mean by "goo" ?

    Am ordering for another solenoid today. But i want to be sure before i do so.

    Ikenna.
    The starter solenoid does two things, first it drives the bendix drive into engagement with the ring gear, second it connects the battery to the starter motor windings to turn the engine over and hopefully start it. These contacts are inside the solenoid housing. The main battery cable bolts onto one, the other is usually connected by a short lead (2~3 cm long) to the main body of the starter motor. Both these leads are about the thickness of your little finger at least.

    The contacts inside are usually copper, about a cm square and are connected by a copper bar attached via a spring to the end of the solenoid plunger. because they carry around 200 Amps they do erode and can either oxidise (starter goes clack but doesn't turn the motor) or occasionally weld (starter keeps winding even after key is released)

    The solenoid plunger is steel, usually about 15mm in diameter and runs in a plastic or brass sleeve inside the housing, usually dry or lubricated with graphite. If the solenoid gets a bit of oil in it (from a leaking rocker cover gasket usually) the combination of oil and dust on the plunger forms a thick grease like the dirty goo that builds up in engine bays, which stops the plunger from moving as it should. In this case the plunger may not be able to force the main contacts closed, so the starter doesn't turn.

    It is possible to pull these apart to clean them, but fitting a new one is always a better option.

    Bruce.

  14. #14
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    ..........first remove the engine......!Thanks for all the info, I'm replacing it with a second hand unit which has been reconditioned and bench tested. The odd thing is that it will use nuts and bolt as the starter housing is not threaded. Dont know whether this is going to make it easier or not. Meanwhile the I'm enjoyingusing the 404.
    Max

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