No power - 405 mi16x4 dfw
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Icon9 No power - 405 mi16x4 dfw

    Hi all, need some help. My dear old 405 has started playing up. I've had this happen 2-3 times in the past 2yrs. when cold and damp, and only on relatively short trips no more than a few kilometers. But it's started again yesterday on the way home from a 200 mile trip, and now seem to have become permanent.
    She starts and idles no problem - cold or hot engine. If in neutral, give her a little gas and revs will rise to 4000rpm, stop and then fall slowly to 2000, and then rise to 4000 again. And as long as you hold the pedal steady, this wil just cycle up and down until you let go. When driving, it cuts out at about 1950rpm as if starved for fuel.So as long as you keep it under that, she runs - although slowly. Sometimes the warning lite turns on. Sometimes she just dies when landind at idle speed, but will start again no prob. Have checked the AFM, water temp ( all 3 seem to be ok), oxysensor (no cat fitted), idle selinoid, potentiometer on the accelerator and they all seem to check out. Had a mate of mine at Peugeot try to get in touch with the ecu - no luck.

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    Any ideas? Does anyone have some data as to what measurements should result in?

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! le frogg 205's Avatar
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    airflow meter? my 205 had the same problem and they are very sensative motors. worth as shot. could even be a dud battery. although im not sure. ive been told they have a big effect on power and idle speed.

  3. #3
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I would test the alternator for correct output voltage and possible failed diodes in its rectifier. A simple swap test could also be carried out with the ignition amplifier. Test the coil for correct behaviour, inspect the rotor and cap. Measure all lead resistances.

    Fuel pressure should be tested with the vacuum reference line capped at the manifold. Fuel flow rate can be measured for fifteen seconds into a four litre can, after hotwiring the fuel pump; this can be extended to litres/minute for reference.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    I would test the alternator for correct output voltage and possible failed diodes in its rectifier. A simple swap test could also be carried out with the ignition amplifier. Test the coil for correct behaviour, inspect the rotor and cap. Measure all lead resistances.

    Fuel pressure should be tested with the vacuum reference line capped at the manifold. Fuel flow rate can be measured for fifteen seconds into a four litre can, after hotwiring the fuel pump; this can be extended to litres/minute for reference.
    Did a rummage around today and found that the idle position switch on the back side of the intake was filled with coolant!! Leak fixed and switch pulled apart and dried - job done. Well no. I also found that the injectors cut out. So when the engine revs to 3-4000rpm, I can hear the injectors go silent until the engine settels. Could that be a faulty TDC sensor?

  5. #5
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Maybe. Have you measured it's resistance? Pin 3 is a shield, the other two have a resistance something like 185 Ohms between them.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Capago's Avatar
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    I would have gone for the TPS (or its wiring) if the injectors cut out until it drops to idle speed, if its telling the ECU there is 0% throttle. You get nothing at all if its the crank sensor (personal experience). Non-starting car but i got a fault code also. Stuck outside petert's house!

    I'd be checking it again, but this is a tricky one...
    Last edited by Capago; 21st October 2012 at 09:40 PM.
    The wrong oil is better than no oil at all.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    If the tacho is still showing RPM whilst the revs are dropping then it's not the TDC sensor. PM me your email address and I'll email you a very nice manual.

    '92 205 Mi16
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  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Maybe. Have you measured it's resistance? Pin 3 is a shield, the other two have a resistance something like 185 Ohms between them.
    Measurement done = 510 ohms! A tad on the high side I would gather.....
    i can also see that the before mentioned leak has bathed the tdc sensor in coolant as well. The challenge is now to see if any of the mains that are open on a sunday have on in stock....

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    If the tacho is still showing RPM whilst the revs are dropping then it's not the TDC sensor. PM me your email address and I'll email you a very nice manual.
    The rev counter follows nicely down the scale, when the injectors cut out. Having measured the sensor, result being 510ohms instead of the 185 that addo said it sould be, I think it's a good guess. My theory is that if the resistance is too high, there might be produced a strong enough signal when on idle to run the tacho and have enough "left over" to give a signal to the ECU. But when under load, it might be too weak.
    PM is sent, looking forward to what you got.

  10. #10
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I may be wrong about the resistance. Can you hold off replacing, for about eight hours?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    I may be wrong about the resistance. Can you hold off replacing, for about eight hours?
    I'll have to. Already been to my local pug pusher - my former place of work. Didn't have one on stock, and isn't on stock anywhere else north of Copenhagn :-(
    thanks for the help so far. You guys here at aussiefrogs are really helpful. More so than the UK equal.


    8 hours? It'll be dark by then here in Denmark...... Will have to get the torch out ;-)

  12. #12
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    @ Capago
    I do understand what you're thinking, but the TPS is, after taking it apart to empty it for coolant, basically two switches. Not a potentiometer with resistance as they are today. There is a microswitch to tell when in idle position. And at the other end of the scale, there is a copper spring, which is always open, and only closes when at full throttle.

  13. #13
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Measured two CASs.

    One OEM (Siemens) off RFV - 363Ω
    One OEM (unidentifiable) off UFZ - 378Ω

    So, 510Ω doesn't sound right.

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Measured two CASs.

    One OEM (Siemens) off RFV - 363Ω
    One OEM (unidentifiable) off UFZ - 378Ω

    So, 510Ω doesn't sound right.
    I imagine it's cold in Denmark.... stick them in the freezer and see what they measure when there nice and chilly. 510ohms may not be far from right (where did you find the ohms symbol ? ).

    It sounds to me like the car is trying to run using the idle circuit. Are we sure there isn't just a huge air leak somewhere on the intake side (especially downstream of an air flow meter if it has one).

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I imagine it's cold in Denmark.... stick them in the freezer and see what they measure when there nice and chilly. 510ohms may not be far from right (where did you find the ohms symbol ? ).

    It sounds to me like the car is trying to run using the idle circuit. Are we sure there isn't just a huge air leak somewhere on the intake side (especially downstream of an air flow meter if it has one).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Thanks Shane,
    Although winters closing in, it's still about 10-15*C here. And an airleak after the afm, wouldn't that just raise the idle speed?

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    If it has an airleak after the AFM (Does it really have one ??), will cause the car to idle, and if it will rev, do so very poorly. Usually the car will stall if you try to open the throttle. However if your airleak is not huge, it may rev poorly (as it's running so lean).

    When my old man first got the CX back to Australia, he went out oneday to leave and the car would start, idle, but not rev. After a lot of head scratching one of the guys he works with comes out "My BMW does that all the time, it'll blow the inlet off if the car backfires through the induction ......). So they follow the inlet from the AFM back ... and sure enough, the inlet side of the turbo charger was off. ie: ALL of the air being sucked in was un-metered. So the car would only idle as the idle circuit ignores the AFM.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
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    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  17. #17
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    Well, that's me screwed..... Huge thanks to PeterT (and everyone else for putting in there cents worth) for the manual, which only thickens the plot. I'd bought a new tdc sensor today just in case, but it turned out to have twice the resistance of the one on my car..... So that's going back.

    I've done the measurement according to the manual from PeterT. The sensor produces 2.9v when cranking and has a resistance of 501ohms when measured thru the backside of the ecu connector when not fitted. So that's basically spot on.

    The AFM, injectors, canister purge solenoid, idle speed reg solenoid and the throttle switch all passed within the ranges given in the manual.

    The only thing I haven't checked is the knock sensor. Mostly because i don't happen to have a ramp at home, and it's a bitch to get at without. But could it give that much hassel?


    Once again, thanks for the help so far. And if there are any other pug nuts who have an idea, please don't hold back.

  18. #18
    Tadpole
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    Hi all!
    an update. and thanks for your help, especially PeterT - that guide you sent is golden!

    - Dizzycap and rotor replaced - the the center pickup on the cap was nonexsistant! So that it ran at all is a mistery to me.
    - Coil replaced due to the resinsealant was beginning to crack - mostly repalced as a precaution

    After following the guide from PeterT, i found that the amplifiermodule was putting out voltage where it shouldn't, so that was binned. After that was replaced, the ecu warning lamp "finally" turned on...... (?). The fault code = TPS. replaced today, and now she runs like a top!! Even feels like a few horses have found there way back to the paddock!

    Thanks again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Furio View Post
    Hi all, need some help. My dear old 405 has started playing up. I've had this happen 2-3 times in the past 2yrs. when cold and damp, and only on relatively short trips no more than a few kilometers. But it's started again yesterday on the way home from a 200 mile trip, and now seem to have become permanent.
    She starts and idles no problem - cold or hot engine. If in neutral, give her a little gas and revs will rise to 4000rpm, stop and then fall slowly to 2000, and then rise to 4000 again. And as long as you hold the pedal steady, this wil just cycle up and down until you let go. When driving, it cuts out at about 1950rpm as if starved for fuel.So as long as you keep it under that, she runs - although slowly. Sometimes the warning lite turns on. Sometimes she just dies when landind at idle speed, but will start again no prob. Have checked the AFM, water temp ( all 3 seem to be ok), oxysensor (no cat fitted), idle selinoid, potentiometer on the accelerator and they all seem to check out. Had a mate of mine at Peugeot try to get in touch with the ecu - no luck.

    Any ideas? Does anyone have some data as to what measurements should result in?

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