Renault Virage starter motor identification - help!
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  1. #1
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Renault Virage starter motor identification - help!

    I need to sort a starter motor problem on the 1979 Virage.

    I want to check whether I can still buy an Australian made Bosch one, but can't seem to be able to find out what model identification to ask for - the suppliers don't have Renault listed anymore but they were made and I reckon I should be able to find one.

    Can anyone tell me what the reference/model no. is for these starters?

    Help much appreciated.

    Thanks, JohnW

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    JohnW

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  2. #2
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Well, no-one from Froggie Forum knew, but I received this from Bosch:

    "Dear Sir,

    The part numbers you are looking for are as follows:

    9 000 062 003
    9 000 062 027

    Both were marketed under the short order number of BXR121.

    If a Bosch starter was fitted as original equipment, either one of the above
    10 digit part numbers will be stamped on the barrel of the starter motor.

    Regards,

    Jack Nelson."

    Pretty good. So for those that need to know, this is the answer.

    Cheers - JohnW
    JohnW

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  3. #3
    Simon's Avatar
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    John,

    Don't bother trying to replace the Bosch starter, they are a real nuisance and only fitted because of local content rules. You have to remove the engine mount bracket to remove and replace the Bosch starter, unless someone has butchered the bracket. The Bosch is bulkier and about 10mm longer than the Paris Rhone, and takes about 10 times longer to remove and refit compared to the minutes of the P-R which just slips in and out.

    I would also reckon, unless someone has weidly retro fitted the Bosch, that your Virage should have originally been fitted with a Paris Rhone starter which was fitted to all 12's from mid 1976 onwards.

    Simon
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  4. #4
    Simon's Avatar
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    Oh, my point being, if a Bosch starter needs to be replaced, swap it with a Paris Rhone one instead.

    Simon
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi John,
    Simon's information is quite correct re Bosch versus Paris Rhone (or Ducellier). I have even found that a R10 starter in good condition will also happily start a R12 (or Virage).

    You can also purchase an as new equivalent (but much cheaper) under the brand name of VALEO, which is available from Caravelle Imports in Melbourne. They may also be available from a more local supplier. However, Ken at Caravelle has a very good delivery system.

    From memory, there is none of the fitting problems associated with the Bosch. Also, whilst not a common problem with the R12 series, I have found that the fitting of a starter relay improves the longevity of the starter Bendix unit, as well as giving more reliable starting if your battery is low.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  6. #6
    COL
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    Hi there Fellas the onlt trouble i have had with Bosch starter motors is the brushes which are dirt cheap to and easy to replace. I have found Paris Rhone and Ducelier parts to be expensive.
    The only down fall of the Bosch starter motor is removing it and replacing. But it is possible to modify the engine mount bracket to make it easier.

    Regards COL.
    Regards Col

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  7. #7
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Thanks to everyone for all the good advice. I guess the reliability of the Paris Rhone unit is the reason I've never had to think about it before. We've only had the Virage since 1993 so I didn't expect problems so soon........

    The relay is going on as part of the fix.

    I didn't realise there was a Valeo unit available. Too late now but I appreciate that information.

    Thanks again. Great forum!

    JohnW
    JohnW

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  8. #8
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    Kim, is there a specific starter relay you use, or is it simply the generic horn type (say 30A) relay, wired as you would a horn/fan/light?

    (Edit: as I related to John privately, my R12 Paris-Rhone starter stopped working, and it turned out to be the three (or four) large rivets on the backplate of the motor that had a bad earth. These just required tapping round the edges with a hammer and cold chisel to burr them over slightly and re-establish contact. Has worked now like that for about 4 years.)

    Stuey

    <small>[ 11 May 2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Stuey ]</small>


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  9. #9
    Simon's Avatar
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    I know what a relay is and how it works, but is there a problem on 12's and the starters that requires one to be fitted for better performance? How can it make the Bendix last longer when that is a non-electrical part.

    Just wondering, as apart from things like brushes wearing out I've never had a problem with 12 starters in 19 odd years. (Searching for wood to touch now!!)

    Simon
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  10. #10
    Simon's Avatar
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    Done it again, that is Renault 12 starters in 19 years, otherwise it would be a Choice rating of five red blobs for reliability with 12 starters in that time! And as all of us Renault 12 owners know they just are not an unreliable car :-)
    1963 Renault R4 Van
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  11. #11
    COL
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    I'm with you Simon the only prob I've had with 12 Starter motors is brushes and the odd loose soleniod. I can't see what the extra relay does either. Perhaps the other guys know something we don't.

    Regards Col.
    Regards Col

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  12. #12
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    I had to renovate the starter switch contacts (ignition) by polishing with wet or dry, due to burning. However, I put this down to the previously mentioned rivets having an intermittent earth.

    Stuey


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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Reno17's Avatar
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    Are R12 Startermotors the same as R17 units ?

    Its just every no now and then when I go to start my car,(R17) it makes a clunking noise and fails to start. only does it every now and then, its annoying. Has to be the Solinoid.

    Ash
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi there,
    Just to reply to questions re the fitting of a starter relay. As mentioned in my post, I do not consider that the R12 Series is known for starter problems, especially where a relay might be required.

    I have fitted to my '78 Virage a standard type of relay (driving lights etc), as a precaution against ageing wiring, earths etc. The slight increase in voltage to the Bendix solenoid ensures positive engagement of the pinion gear to to the ring gear, preventing chattering etc.

    At the last battery change, I opted for an 11 plate Century, which fitted without any battery carrier modifications. I am sure that this has also helped with cold starts during a Tamworth winter at -5 degrees, and the car completely covered in ice.

    I also run Hella 60 driving lamps, naturally via a relay. Hope this reply helps.

    Cheers,
    Kim.

  15. #15
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion.

    We had the Paris-Rhone starter refurbished and all is well.

    The relay discussion was based on advice about fitting one to protect the ignition switch rather than to influence the starter solenoid.

    The starter hasn't been touched in the 9 years we've had the car, so there are no grumbles from me about Paris-Rhone starters!

    Thanks again.

    JohnW
    JohnW

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    JohnW:

    I didn't realise there was a Valeo unit available. Too late now but I appreciate that information.
    JohnW
    Its worth bearing in mind that "Valeo" is the company which now owns just about everything French in the auto electrics game (and has a large hand in many other countries too - Spain, Korea, Brasil, south Africa etc etc).

    Ducellier, Paris Rhone, Sofica, Cibie, SEV Marchal, Neiman and Sofica have all been taken over by Valeo over the years. Accordingly , just about any electrical part for a French car (unless its been fitted with Bosch stuff) now actually comes out under the Valeo name.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 22 May 2002, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    JohnW:
    I need to sort a starter motor problem on the 1979 Virage.

    I want to check whether I can still buy an Australian made Bosch one, but can't seem to be able to find out what model identification to ask for - the suppliers don't have Renault listed anymore but they were made and I reckon I should be able to find one.

    Can anyone tell me what the reference/model no. is for these starters?

    Help much appreciated.

    Thanks, JohnW

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