Could you run a turbo diesel in WRC?
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Wamuran (hr nth of Brisbane)
    Posts
    50

    Default Could you run a turbo diesel in WRC?

    With the air intake restrictors on the WRC cars causing the engineers to keep dropping the RPM at which max torque is delivered (ie ~55kgm @3000RPM), wouldn't it be logical to try and run a turbo diesel for the sake of PR & Publicity?

    I mean diesel rev ranges aren't that far off what WRC petrol cars are doing right?

    Advertisement
    '94 306 s16
    '91 RGV250
    Economics exists to keep Economists in jobs.

  2. #2
    Banned orestes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sunshine Coast
    Posts
    4,520

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentino_Rossi
    With the air intake restrictors on the WRC cars causing the engineers to keep dropping the RPM at which max torque is delivered (ie ~55kgm @3000RPM), wouldn't it be logical to try and run a turbo diesel for the sake of PR & Publicity?

    I mean diesel rev ranges aren't that far off what WRC petrol cars are doing right?
    I don't see why not, BMW ran a diesel at lemans with some sucsess. With current technology there would be the possiblity to extract more then adequete power

  3. #3
    Gus
    Gus is offline
    Fellow Frogger! Gus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    600

    Default

    Diesels need lots of airflow, though. I don't know exactly how it combines in a modern high-performance diesel engine, but my guess is that it'll need more volume of air per kw than a turbo petrol engine. Definitely the case in the oldschool turbo diesels.

  4. #4
    Tadpole IBLOWN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Penrith, Sydney
    Posts
    25

    Default

    diesels are getting more powerful and revvy lately. the technology's gone crazy. i think there were a few in le manz not long ago? u.s.a is goin crazy on the drag racing scene with diesels. they really get em going!
    Peugeot 405 sri 94' everyday. Commodore once a month.

    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2213367

  5. #5
    Sans Pond. STALLED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    What are the regulations on power limits in the WRC - does this also apply to torque figures as well?

    STalled
    2005 Renault Clio 182 Cup

    2011 Renault Megane 250 Cup Trophee - Sold

    1997 Peugeot 406 2.0 Manual - On Loan

    2004 Citroen C3 1.4 80th Anniversary (RIP)

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Posts
    1,885

    Default

    I've been looking through the technical regs from the FIA and the only reference to diesel engines is in the turbo restrictor.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia
    For vehicles with Diesel engines, the restrictor must have a
    maximum internal diameter of 37 mm and an external diameter of
    43 mm in the conditions set out above (this diameter may be
    revised at any moment without notice).
    So i guess it's legal. Extra weight would be one of the main reasons the manufacturers havent gone for it I suppose. That and the lack of incentive to do so.
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
    James Hunt: Well that should put them out then!


    Mallala: 1:30.79





  7. #7
    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Posts
    1,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STALLED
    What are the regulations on power limits in the WRC - does this also apply to torque figures as well?

    STalled
    The power in WRC cars are effectively limited by a restriction in the maximum diameter in the turbo inlet. For all gasoline cars it's a 34mm restrictor which effectively limits them to 300bhp and around 500 nm torque. As I just found out (see previous post) for diesel engine's is 37mm.
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
    James Hunt: Well that should put them out then!


    Mallala: 1:30.79





  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Wamuran (hr nth of Brisbane)
    Posts
    50

    Default

    37mm vs 34mm nearly a 9% increase in size of the restrictor. I'm not sure on the gain in air flow from this - it could be greater than 9%.

    If the good WRC manufacturers make their cars light and ballast them, could that allow for running a good diesel engine with no ballast?

    Peugeot are heading to Le Mans w/a diesel in 2007 and I think Audi are this year...
    '94 306 s16
    '91 RGV250
    Economics exists to keep Economists in jobs.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! casnell's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Heidelberg/melbourne
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentino_Rossi
    37mm vs 34mm nearly a 9% increase in size of the restrictor. I'm not sure on the gain in air flow from this - it could be greater than 9%.

    If the good WRC manufacturers make their cars light and ballast them, could that allow for running a good diesel engine with no ballast?

    Peugeot are heading to Le Mans w/a diesel in 2007 and I think Audi are this year...
    I run GpN and that's a 32mm restrictor which is about 11% down on air flow compared to 34mm. 37 would be fantastic! I reckon diesel would be good, the current cars pull like a tractor at low revs anyway, should suit a diesel.
    205gti

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,483

    Default

    37/34 is 18%!

    Area = PId^2/4

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Wamuran (hr nth of Brisbane)
    Posts
    50

    Default

    dammit.... forgot my maths! Good thing I'm aiming to be an economist and not and engineer (started out that way).

    18.4% difference in area....
    Surely that would make up for the difference in weight....
    '94 306 s16
    '91 RGV250
    Economics exists to keep Economists in jobs.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! casnell's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Heidelberg/melbourne
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Spoke to someone in the know today and ARCOM have been talking to manufacturers re diesels already for the reasons stated above, except that they hadn't heard of the 37mm restrictor but it all sounds positive.
    205gti

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Sinney
    Posts
    439

    Default

    surely a diesel wrc car would need more gears though? otherwise they would be caught out of the (very narrow) power-band too often?

    that would mean theyre off the pace of the petrol cars cos theyd be changing gears more often to keep the torque coming.
    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

    previous cars: peugeot 306xt, peugeot 205si, renault 20, renault 12 - sedan and wagon, renault 25, alfa 155 twin spark

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! downunderyank's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Longford Tas
    Posts
    220

    Default Cvt

    What ever happened to the continuously variable transmission ( I think that's what it's called) that are the same as golf carts and snowmobiles (from my neck of the woods). These usually run a belt driven primary and secondary clutch and constantly changed the ratio allowing the engine to stay in it's peak powerband the entire time. They must be able to make something like this for a diesel car. I've seen smaller cars with it in the last 10 years somewhere or another. The theory would really allow you to wring the most out of a diesel not to mention any other ICE. Anyone know of anything else that runs this type of transmission?
    Before you judge someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Then when you judge them, you're a mile away and you've got thier shoes!

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Westair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    558

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by downunderyank
    What ever happened to the continuously variable transmission ( I think that's what it's called) that are the same as golf carts and snowmobiles (from my neck of the woods). These usually run a belt driven primary and secondary clutch and constantly changed the ratio allowing the engine to stay in it's peak powerband the entire time. They must be able to make something like this for a diesel car. I've seen smaller cars with it in the last 10 years somewhere or another. The theory would really allow you to wring the most out of a diesel not to mention any other ICE. Anyone know of anything else that runs this type of transmission?
    DAF which is/was now owned by Volvo even had trucks with variable belt drive transmissions
    1986 Renault Fuego GTX
    1972 Mercedes Benz 280E
    1988 Nissan Trakka Campervan
    1972 VW Kombi

    In business, words are words; explanations are explanations, promises are promises, but only performance is reality.
    Harold Ganeen.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! casnell's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Heidelberg/melbourne
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by enthused!
    surely a diesel wrc car would need more gears though? otherwise they would be caught out of the (very narrow) power-band too often?

    that would mean theyre off the pace of the petrol cars cos theyd be changing gears more often to keep the torque coming.
    Max torque for us is 3000, runs out of puff anything above 5000, limiter set at 5500(otherwise you kill the turbo), is that something like a turbo diesel?
    205gti

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! PLAYLIFE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by downunderyank
    What ever happened to the continuously variable transmission ( I think that's what it's called) that are the same as golf carts and snowmobiles (from my neck of the woods). These usually run a belt driven primary and secondary clutch and constantly changed the ratio allowing the engine to stay in it's peak powerband the entire time. They must be able to make something like this for a diesel car. I've seen smaller cars with it in the last 10 years somewhere or another. The theory would really allow you to wring the most out of a diesel not to mention any other ICE. Anyone know of anything else that runs this type of transmission?

    Williams were in the midst of developing CVT for their F1 car in 1993, before it was banned by the FIA due to an 'increase of costs'.
    1977-1982
    Gli Anni Delle Febbre
    Gilles Villeneuve #27


    2005 Peugeot 206 GTi180

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    5,232

    Default

    Only a few years ago a Diesel won the Austrian touring car championship. Diesel was turbo vs normaly aspirated Petrols.
    Suppose it all depends on the rules.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Posts
    1,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PLAYLIFE
    Williams were in the midst of developing CVT for their F1 car in 1993, before it was banned by the FIA due to an 'increase of costs'.
    I saw a video of Coulthard (who was the Williams test driver at the time) running the CVT around I think Donnington - Was strange to see the thing always running at max/ideal revs!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo
    Only a few years ago a Diesel won the Austrian touring car championship. Diesel was turbo vs normaly aspirated Petrols.
    Suppose it all depends on the rules.
    What was that? The only quirk* I can remember winning the ATCC was the Volvo turbo winning back in the early 80's

    * by quirk I mean non falcadore/sierra/skyline GT-R
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
    James Hunt: Well that should put them out then!


    Mallala: 1:30.79





  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! casnell's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Heidelberg/melbourne
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gti138
    I saw a video of Coulthard (who was the Williams test driver at the time) running the CVT around I think Donnington - Was strange to see the thing always running at max/ideal revs!



    What was that? The only quirk* I can remember winning the ATCC was the Volvo turbo winning back in the early 80's

    * by quirk I mean non falcadore/sierra/skyline GT-R
    Austrian, not Australian !

    I got a letter today sent to Heidelberg from the city, that came via Heidelberg, Germany!
    205gti

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Wamuran (hr nth of Brisbane)
    Posts
    50

    Default

    http://www.audi.com/audi/com/en1/exp...sport/r10.html
    VIDEOS ON THE ABOVE LINK
    & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10
    = Audi R10 GT car (diesel)
    5.5L V12
    >650hp
    >1100Nm torque
    working RPM range = 3000 - 5000rpm

    two 39.9mm restrictors (air intake)

    2L equivalent=
    one 29mm restrictor
    400Nm
    236hp

    allow WRC reg restrictors = WRC specs or higher?

    for FIA regs see www.fia.com

    try searching for CVT at www.wikipedia.org
    lists all the vehicles (ought to be fairly accurate) that have CVT
    The list has old & new cars on it.

    Honda Civic had a CVT model in Australia that was released in 1995...
    '94 306 s16
    '91 RGV250
    Economics exists to keep Economists in jobs.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! enthused!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Sinney
    Posts
    439

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by downunderyank
    What ever happened to the continuously variable transmission ( I think that's what it's called) that are the same as golf carts and snowmobiles (from my neck of the woods). These usually run a belt driven primary and secondary clutch and constantly changed the ratio allowing the engine to stay in it's peak powerband the entire time.
    oh yeah.. I was just reading fridays' motoring section and apparently most of the range of audi A4s come standard with CVT. In the convertible you have no choice, there is no traditional gearbox option, only auto CVT or manual CVT (which according the the paper is still a CVT set up, but has 6 pre-determined ratio positions... kinda defeats the purpose doesnt it??)
    1992 mi16 1.9 litre - it's a love hate realtionship.

    whatever you do NEVER tell anyone your car is reliable. doesn't matter how much wood you touch!

    previous cars: peugeot 306xt, peugeot 205si, renault 20, renault 12 - sedan and wagon, renault 25, alfa 155 twin spark

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! WAUTY205's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Devonport, TAS
    Posts
    181

    Default

    A TDi VW Golf did realy well in the 1999 British Rally Champianship.
    http://www.ltv-vwc.org.uk/wheelspin/...esel_rally.htm

    I would be happy 190hp from my 1.9 !
    1990 205Gti
    1976 504 rally car (currently out of action)

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Posts
    1,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by casnell
    Austrian, not Australian !

    I got a letter today sent to Heidelberg from the city, that came via Heidelberg, Germany!
    Oh cock I totally misread that! Dumbest post of the year goes to me!
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
    James Hunt: Well that should put them out then!


    Mallala: 1:30.79





Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •