The Decline of Williams?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! PLAYLIFE's Avatar
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    Default The Decline of Williams?

    They have lost main sponsor HP at the end of 2005.

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    And of course as we all know, BMW have jumped ship for next season, Button does not want to drive there, and they will be moving to Bridgestone tyres.

    Will this be the beginning of the decline for Williams in F1?
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    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PLAYLIFE
    They have lost main sponsor HP at the end of 2005.

    And of course as we all know, BMW have jumped ship for next season, Button does not want to drive there, and they will be moving to Bridgestone tyres.

    Will this be the beginning of the decline for Williams in F1?
    Williams have been down many times before. After the Honda period ended in 1987 they went off and had a down year with the Judd V8's. They then formed the partnership with Renault which no doubt was their most successful period ever.

    When Renault withdrew in 1997 (i think) Williams once again went to using a "customer" supertec engine for a few years till they hooked up with BMW in 2000. The BMW partnership hasnt been as fruitful as i'm sure BMW & Williams would have hoped.

    Next year running Cossie V8's may not be such a bad thing. The V8 formula is still a bit of an unknown at the moment. The rumour is that Williams will hook up with Toyota for 2007 onwards running Lexus badged motors.

    The Button deal was/is very important to Williams as it's been mentioned that Frank has signed up several sponsors - i'm assuming to replace HP on the condition that Button was part of the team next year. Hence why he's apparantly knocked back a 21 Million deal to let Button go to BAR next year.

    Remember that Williams could have used BMW engines next year as they had a contract.

    Only time will tell really but Williams will survive.
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
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    Fellow Frogger! 306XT's Avatar
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    But they might be tempted to get a good deak with BAR and have a go with nico roseberg (if bernie E say so, it can happen!) But on the face of it webber will be nexy to JB next season.

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    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    It would have to be a sizeable amount of $ for Williams to let him stay a BAR. Williams are already getting paid out by BMW and now HP as they have terminated contracts early.

    I think that realistically JB will either be sitting alongside Webber next year or sitting on a beach somewhere.
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
    James Hunt: Well that should put them out then!


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    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    Oh dear,... F1 racing's prediction is that Williams will have a new face next year. New look and livery and they migth try the double keel "walrus" front again. They also suggested that Button might be without an F1 seat next year as Sato might not be moved from BAR.
    Personaly I hopt williams don't fall to far behind as next year i really think the Mc's will kick ass. They have a V8 engine that they have already been racing (in tourers and lower F classes) for 2 years now. NA V8's have been around a VERY long time so there is no magic formulas anymore, I think the cars will be slower but not by much; hence we need williams to regain some glory as they will need to have Ferrari & renault do the catch up to the Mc's. - Chris
    ... ptui!

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    Fellow Frogger! 306XT's Avatar
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    Wonder how renault will do, as its very likely they have put all their resource into winning it this year. Remembering their budget is only 4th largest. I think Mc will win it next year & whos to bet BAR doing well next year. Ruben beating Schumi That will be GOLD!

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    Fellow Frogger! PLAYLIFE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gti138
    Williams have been down many times before. After the Honda period ended in 1987 they went off and had a down year with the Judd V8's. They then formed the partnership with Renault which no doubt was their most successful period ever.

    When Renault withdrew in 1997 (i think) Williams once again went to using a "customer" supertec engine for a few years till they hooked up with BMW in 2000. The BMW partnership hasnt been as fruitful as i'm sure BMW & Williams would have hoped.

    Next year running Cossie V8's may not be such a bad thing. The V8 formula is still a bit of an unknown at the moment. The rumour is that Williams will hook up with Toyota for 2007 onwards running Lexus badged motors.

    The Button deal was/is very important to Williams as it's been mentioned that Frank has signed up several sponsors - i'm assuming to replace HP on the condition that Button was part of the team next year. Hence why he's apparantly knocked back a 21 Million deal to let Button go to BAR next year.

    Remember that Williams could have used BMW engines next year as they had a contract.

    Only time will tell really but Williams will survive.


    I originally thought that Williams moved to N/A Juddís in 1988 to get the jump on everyone else for the 1989 season when turbos would be banned indefinitely, as they would already have an established base for the different characteristics of an NA engine. Not sure when the deal with Renault was struck up for 1989 and beyond.

    Renault did withdraw their factory support at the end of 1997. At the time, Williams and Benetton were running Renaultís but the following season in 1998 saw the Renault engines re-badged Supertec (and Benetton rebadged the Supertec to Playlife).

    As you rightly pointed out, Sir Frank must have some sponsor deals in place based on the Button move, hence the importance he has placed on him moving there. I wonder if they would have been better off selling part of the team to BMW when they had the chance when they were competitive.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PLAYLIFE
    I originally thought that Williams moved to N/A Juddís in 1988 to get the jump on everyone else for the 1989 season when turbos would be banned indefinitely, as they would already have an established base for the different characteristics of an NA engine. Not sure when the deal with Renault was struck up for 1989 and beyond.
    Senna who was thought of very highly by Honda Execs effectively did the deal for McLaren to get Honda engines when he went there in 1998 as they were basically End of Life with the TAG-Porsche engine. As honda could only supply 2 teams they stayed with Lotus (and played a part in Piquet moving there from Williams) and went with McLaren. This effectively shafted Williams. But it all backfired as Williams did the deal with Renault at the end of 87 but couldnt get the deal together until the 89 season. The Judd season was effectively a "transition year" as next season with the cossie powerplants could prove to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by PLAYLIFE
    I wonder if they would have been better off selling part of the team to BMW when they had the chance when they were competitive.
    Frank and Patrick Head wont sell part of "their" team to any other party. I think deep down they still like to be classed as an "independant" team with factory engine support.
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
    James Hunt: Well that should put them out then!


    Mallala: 1:30.79





  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! PLAYLIFE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gti138
    Senna who was thought of very highly by Honda Execs effectively did the deal for McLaren to get Honda engines when he went there in 1998 as they were basically End of Life with the TAG-Porsche engine. As honda could only supply 2 teams they stayed with Lotus (and played a part in Piquet moving there from Williams) and went with McLaren. This effectively shafted Williams. But it all backfired as Williams did the deal with Renault at the end of 87 but couldnt get the deal together until the 89 season. The Judd season was effectively a "transition year" as next season with the cossie powerplants could prove to be.
    Thanks for the info, didn't realise they had struck the Renault deal in '87 for '89+.

    Quote Originally Posted by gti138
    Frank and Patrick Head wont sell part of "their" team to any other party. I think deep down they still like to be classed as an "independant" team with factory engine support.
    I suppose I don't blame them, afterall they are an Engineering Company, but if it means that their team can't stay in F1 I'd probably reconsider.
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    Fellow Frogger! Pug-a-lug's Avatar
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    Honda were the only people to build a brand new turbo engine for the 1988 regulations. Ferrari basically re-jigged their '87 engine... whilst everyone else went normally aspirated.

    Regarding Williams - yep.. looks like another slump coming up. They let Gavin Fisher go recently (chief designer)... add him to Adrian Newey and Geoff Willis of design staff that have been through the Grove revolving door since their last championship in '97.

    They need some technical stability.

    CHRI'S16 - where did you hear about the 'walrus' rumour? 'cause the aerodynamicist that developed that concept (Antonia Terzi) was let go by Williams at the start of this season. I'd be surprised if they tried to resurrect it.

    Surprisingly, only McLaren have stuck with the 'twin keel' idea...all other team AFAIK have now abandoned it. The aero gains didn't outweight the reduced stiffness it produced at the lower wishbone pick-up points.

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    There is one thing that can save williams next year - Bridgestone.

    this time next year we could see williams and/or toyota nipping at the ferrari's heels as Schumi wrapps up his eight world championship, while mclaren and renault will just be wanting to get hold of the bridgies to get some development for 2008. AND Boo-Hoo-Barrichello will be backing up his teammate (whoever it is) at BAR that would be Gold! - then again coulda-woulda has shown that the even the best second driver ever (c'mon you can't deny it, even he just outshines RB) can step up and lead a team if they're teamed with someone who is completely rubbish.

    okay okay, it's not very likely (and wouldn't be popular round here) but it could happen, and it would be funny.

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    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    I have a workmate who's a die-hard Ferrari fan - He suggested to me (only half jokingly) that someone must have paid off Ferrari to keep the championship interesting this year by allowing McLaren & Renault to win...

    Now I think that's as likely to have happened as Schu winning his 8th title next year.
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
    James Hunt: Well that should put them out then!


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    BMW have officially signed Nick Heidfeld on a three year contract commencing next season. It'll be interesting to see if Heidfeld races again for Williams this year. Nico Rosberg may even make his F1 debut in the one of the three remaining races this year.

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    1000+ Posts gti138's Avatar
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    That was pretty much going to happen if Williams are serious about taking on Button next year. They had an option on Heidfeld for next year that expired on the 15th of September (today).

    If they want to play hardball with Button there was no way they could take that option up with Heidfeld.

    Like you say - I doubt he'll set foot in a Williams again. Maybe it will be a chance to test a young driver like Nico Rosberg just in case the deal with Button doesnt come through as planned!
    Murray : And there are flames coming from the back of Prost's car as he enters the swimming pool!
    James Hunt: Well that should put them out then!


    Mallala: 1:30.79





  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! PLAYLIFE's Avatar
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    From what I've heard, Pizzonia will take this week's race in Brazil, and Rosberg may take the last two.
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