Rally pace notes
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 47
Like Tree30Likes

Thread: Rally pace notes

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default Rally pace notes

    as i asked, i thought i would share what i found in the reference section of the WP page to which FD linked.

    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Everything you ever wanted to know about: rally notes | rallynotes

    Everything you ever wanted to know about: rally notes
    Posted on January 13, 2008 by Kris
    Edited and Updated May, 2013

    tulip rally note route iconBlind Rally: Rallies in the US evolved a little differently then rally in Europe. Starting out as all night TSD’s (time speed distance) or brisk rallies, rally in the US did not typically run reconnaissance. This means that the rallymaster would give the co-driver a route book with major navigation instructions and some of the more extreme things to watch out for. Example: “BRIDGE – TURN RIGHT ON SNAPPY ROAD – CAUTION HAIRPIN” Next to this would be a little diagram (on right) showing the direction of the road or obstacle. Sometimes called ‘tulips’, the name is believed to come from the Tulip Rally of the Netherlands that originally used them.

    European rallies were also blind without recce’ for many, many years. It is believed that reconnaissance started some time in the 70s. The RAC remained blind for many years after all other rallies allowed recce’. European rallies started with the Monte Carlo in 1911 as an advertising gimmick to get rich people, i.e. those that owned cars to come together or rally, in Monte Carlo and stay in hotel rooms that were vacant in February. The object was to start from different cities across the continent and maintain a given speed while going to Monte Carlo. As cars became more capable, the speeds got too high to be safe and special stages had to be developed. In the 1970’s US rallies started to offer Special Stages and soon a distinction was made between Time Speed Distance rallies and Performance rallies. Rallies without reconnaissance are considered “blind”.

    Route Book: The route book was the standard that the US had been rallying with for many years. The route book tells you about obstacles, cautions, difficult or deceptive turns, and how to get there. As created by the rally master of the rally, route books often vary wildly from rally to rally. Some rally masters choose to include as much information as possible, some find it more challenging to include as little as possible. Cautions and turns are often marked differently as well. A double caution (!!) in one rally may mean something like “slow down for this,” whereas at another rally it may mean “brake hard and watch out as you will destroy your car.” With a route book the co-driver is not calling every turn, so there is a lot of times where the driver is driving it how he sees it. As in – driving it blind. You will always receive a route book of some type when you compete in a rally, even if it’s just transit directions, often bound in the same physical ‘book’.

    Stage Notes: Stage notes are generally accepted as “notes made by a computer” and rallies in the US would not see stage notes until the 21st century. A company in Sweden called Jemba (owned by Arne Johansson) had perfected a system that would allow a car with a very accurate odometer (coralba tripmeter), laptop, GPS, and accelerometer (measures G-Force) to generate detailed “European style” notes, marking every corner, crest and obstacle on the route with numerical or descriptive notations. Example: “! R3/Cr/rox into smCr 50″ In order to do this you would have to run the car with the system down the stages several times at a steady pace. There is still some human intervention needed to mark exposures, large obstacles, cautions, bridges, etc.

    Stage notes (sometimes called Jemba notes) attempt to call out every corner on the stage and give details as to the roads direction, camber and character. It does not however tell you how to drive those corners. For example: “L5> R5 kinks 70″ describes a road that has a slight chicane. If the road is wide enough a rally driver should attempt to run straight through them and avoid turning (slowing down) as much as possible. The subtle difference between how the road is described and how you would drive it, separates stage notes from pace notes. Even so, once rallies began using stage notes, their stage records were shattered by drivers taking full advantage of this new system. Stage notes are often an additional financial burden to the organizers. P-Sport (owned by Pete Lahm) is the only organization known to offer Jemba stage notes in the US. Rally America currently specifies in their rule book that only one vendor will be used for their national championship’s season stage notes. Regional events may utilize organizer supplied notes.

    [youtube http://youtu.be/KFjRj25uclQ%5D
    Understanding Co-Drivers for Noobs

    Gibeault Notes: In 2007 Kristopher Marciniak suggested to Michel Hoche-Mong (Engineer / Rally Driver / Organizer) that with off-the-shelf technology a new stage notes making system could be derived. After days of tinkering with accelerometers, GPS, and video – the idea was pitched to Mike Gibeault (Seriously smart engineer / California Rally Series / Rallydata.com). Mike suggested that getting data from just the steering wheel, in a car driven in the middle of the road at a steady speed, coupled with mileage and other data sources – you could get very accurate stage notes. Two rallies were first mapped by Mike & Paula Gibeault; North Nevada in 2008 and High Desert Trails in 2009. With these first successful tests the process was refined further with input from national winning co-drivers and drivers. Chrissie Beavis added the critical element of national level co-driving experience that was instrumental in developing the details of the algorithms as well as determining how to compress the computer data (which in raw form has too much information) down to what is salient for a given sequence. It wasn’t long before organizers in the Southwest switched to Gibeault Stage Notes for a quarter of the cost with equal (or better) consistency. In 2011 The High Desert Trails AND The Prescott Rally both ran Gibeault Stage Notes with no reconnaissance – a true test of a blind rally with organizer supplied stage notes.

    By comparison, Gibeault Stage Notes are quite similar to Jemba in the degree of turn, distance, and description. It is very easy to use them if you’ve ever driven with Jemba notes. Where as the development of Jemba seems to have stalled out, Gibeault Notes continue to crystallize and sharpen complex sequences of corners with better algorithms, better descriptions, and an updated glossary.

    As a competitor, you are usually not required by the rally to have (purchase) stage notes. They are generally included in the cost of entry or offered for an additional cost between $100 – $175 with the understanding that anything wrong in the stage notes is solely your problem. Rally America finally dropped its limitations on new drivers and co-drivers from purchasing stage notes. NASA Rally Sport has had no limitations on stage note providers or new driver stage note restrictions.

    Pacenotes: Pace notes are created during reconnaissance (recce`). Reconnaissance is what most European and all WRC drivers and co-drivers use to create notes, specifically pacenotes. Unlike Jemba, there is no set standard between teams. Some prefer calling the direction of the turn after the tightness, some use a descriptive method – there are many styles. It is solely up to a driver and co-driver to determine what works for them. The team drive the road several times and notate each corner, obstacle, caution, and mark down (what they perceive to be) the fastest way through the stage. Here in the US, reconnaissance is sometimes offered along with stage notes as a way to further sharpen the notes into something you would drive and not just a description of the road. There is a significant inherent cost to teams running a full reconnaissance that include additional days off, hotel, gas, and other travel expenses.

    Combinations of notes: Several combinations have been offered in the last few years by rally organizers in the US. Route Book with the option to buy Stage Notes has been the most common after 2002, but Route Book ONLY was the standard for 30+ years. Reconnaissance has been offered with stage notes and a shorter format called “One Pass Recce`” where you must have purchased the stage notes, and you will only make one recce` pass down each stage. This lightens some of the burdens of running a full reconnaissance. Reconnaissance has been offered instead of stage notes because of the high cost incurred by the organizer. This is due in part by the decline in rally participation (less entries to pay for it), and the increasing cost of the stage notes from a single vendor. Organizer supplied notes have been tried with some controversy. These are notes made by a professional driver or co-driver (not a computer or algorithmic method) that are then printed up and offered to the competitors. This isn’t always successful – as in Olympus 2006.

    Advertisement

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,669

    Default

    All of which are irrelevant if navigators have to 'navigate'! Apparently the stars of rallying, the drivers, who mostly couldn't navigate their way out of a wet paper bag got irritated with Rally Directors daring to include any semblance of navigation in their rally's because their navigators could get lost and lose the driver (and the Manufacturer) the event.

    Rallying used to be a team sport with the duties shared between the car's occupants. The current events are not secret route events, every competitor has a go at practising the whole event, if not they use notes from a trusted source. Electronics and pace notes make it too easy for anyone that can keep their lunch down to call the pace notes.

    I've tasted some success as a navigator in the days when as you left Control 1 the officials handed you the route instructions to sort out. I'd like to see that re-emerge in what has become the sport of psuedo rallying, better known as circuit racing on closed roads.
    Dano likes this.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Bondi
    Posts
    3,299

    Default

    All to please those that push pencils and add numbers right?
    Bustamif likes this.
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    All of which are irrelevant if navigators have to 'navigate'! Apparently the stars of rallying, the drivers, who mostly couldn't navigate their way out of a wet paper bag got irritated with Rally Directors daring to include any semblance of navigation in their rally's because their navigators could get lost and lose the driver (and the Manufacturer) the event.

    Rallying used to be a team sport with the duties shared between the car's occupants. The current events are not secret route events, every competitor has a go at practising the whole event, if not they use notes from a trusted source. Electronics and pace notes make it too easy for anyone that can keep their lunch down to call the pace notes.

    I've tasted some success as a navigator in the days when as you left Control 1 the officials handed you the route instructions to sort out. I'd like to see that re-emerge in what has become the sport of psuedo rallying, better known as circuit racing on closed roads.
    oh ok, so this rubbish is just you pining for the 'old days', when you got out in your tweed jacket and cap, and the navigator found the way to the picnic. get with the 1980s, grandpa.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    CANBERRA
    Posts
    399

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    oh ok, so this rubbish is just you pining for the 'old days', when you got out in your tweed jacket and cap, and the navigator found the way to the picnic. get with the 1980s, grandpa.
    Yep, pining for rallies of 800 or 1000km a day (actually night), stages over 100km each, no service crews.... I do admit good route charts was an advancement as I hated map reading. Actually rallying in the 1980s was good.
    Kenfuego and Dano like this.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,669

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    oh ok, so this rubbish is just you pining for the 'old days', when you got out in your tweed jacket and cap, and the navigator found the way to the picnic. get with the 1980s, grandpa.
    Unlike yourself, I never found it necessary to own a tweed jacket and cap. The picnics however were always enjoyable after a 300 mile plus event through Victoria's forests finishing at a frigid picnic ground out in the bush at some unearthly hour of the morning, warming yourself and your beer before a raging fire and waiting for the rest of the field to arrive before the long drive home.......the best part was that you didn't get your results until a week later.

    Navigational events obviously proved too hard for the majority of competitors going into the eighties, as the number of WD's and missed controls regularly showed.......
    Kenfuego and Dano like this.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    18,434

    Default

    I never found it necessary to own a tweed jacket and cap.
    Haven't you competed with/against "The Captain" Peter Janson ?
    FIVEDOOR likes this.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,669

    Default

    Indeed I have, he was inclined to wear a "Deerstalker" hat and drive extremely fast......he listed his occupation as "Gentleman" and obviously liked Lions. He is also famous for driving an R8 Gordini down Collins Street. (Allegedly at 100 mph)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rally pace notes-captain-peter.jpg  
    Last edited by Kim Luck; 3rd February 2017 at 07:41 PM.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,669

    Default

    I've always said a good driver can drive fast without people telling them where or how fast to go. Here is a video of Mike Hawthorn doing his own pace notes amongst cyclists, pedestrians, cars and motor bikes at Le Mans in 1956.....

    VC205 and IWS like this.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  10. #10
    the famous 18E pug206gti's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    lost
    Posts
    11,055

    Icon6

    G'day,
    was the first car he passed a Traction ?
    regards,
    Les W.


    206 GTi 180
    the stealth Pug
    Did I do anything last night that suggested I was sane?








  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,669

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pug206gti View Post
    G'day,
    was the first car he passed a Traction ?
    Certainly looked like one.....but anything was possible in La Belle France in 1956.....
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Brisbane Qld
    Posts
    19,804

    Default

    Here is a still of the moment so you can study the issue . Certainly looks like one to my untrained eyes.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Le Mans.jpg 
Views:	262 
Size:	74.7 KB 
ID:	93510
    Any day I wake up and don't have to go to work, is a good day
    Every day is a good day

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I've always said a good driver can drive fast without people telling them where to go. .
    ]
    odd thing to say, in view of your prior comments. you have just there described your old school 'navigator', the demise of which you are elsewhere lamenting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I've always said a good driver can drive fast without people telling them how fast to go. .
    ]
    sorry that you dont understand what rallying has become (ie since ~1980....). i realise this is all new to you, but now they drive faster than is actually possible without someone telling them how fast they can drive around the next corner.

    -----------
    needless to say, driving in a race which involves endless laps of a course with 4 straights and 4 corners, doesnt require someone in a passenger seat for any purpose.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,669

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    odd thing to say, in view of your prior comments. you have just there described your old school 'navigator', the demise of which you are elsewhere lamenting.
    What I lament even more is the fact that authorities on rallying in the sixties and seventies, obviously people such as yourself, have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. There were no pace notes for "secret route" events, so drivers drove and navigators navigated. The event was called a "Trial" and was a test of the car's crew as well as the vehicle. If you imagined for a moment that a navigator could somehow control the speed of the car on a 50 km stage using only a 1:250,000 map, I have some news for you.
    They might have been lucky to indicate to the driver that there was a hairpin bend "coming up shortly"!

    Now go and watch the 12 hour race......
    Kenfuego likes this.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  15. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    i fully understand what you are saying.

    'the old days': the navigator was like having your wife in the seat, reading the Melways. just there to tell you which way to turn at intersections. it if for that jolly old style of rally you are pining. that, and the picnic at the end, with some clown detonating dynamite for a laugh.

    kim, we all know exactly what you are talking about. it is your silly disparagement of the exciting, knife-edge sport it has become which is the source of disagreement.

  16. #16
    IWS
    IWS is offline
    1000+ Posts IWS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Hawthorn East, Vic.
    Posts
    1,289

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    i fully understand what you are saying.

    'the old days': the navigator was like having your wife in the seat, reading the Melways. just there to tell you which way to turn at intersections.
    Alexander, I wonder if you really do "fully understand" old style navigating? Have you done any old style (with maps and a Halda or similar) rally navigating? Yes, it is different to high speed pace-note rallying. But is it not quite the Melways-reading that you portray so dismissively.

    Ian.

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Great Scott! so you mean to tell me they didnt use Melways?? boy am i feeling like a chump...

  18. #18
    IWS
    IWS is offline
    1000+ Posts IWS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Hawthorn East, Vic.
    Posts
    1,289

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Great Scott! so you mean to tell me they didnt use Melways?? boy am i feeling like a chump...
    And your answer to my question?

  19. #19
    IWS
    IWS is offline
    1000+ Posts IWS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Hawthorn East, Vic.
    Posts
    1,289

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I've always said a good driver can drive fast without people telling them where or how fast to go. Here is a video of Mike Hawthorn doing his own pace notes amongst cyclists, pedestrians, cars and motor bikes at Le Mans in 1956.....

    Interesting steering wheel technique - one hand on the left spoke. I wonder if he did that at speed?

    Ian.

  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IWS View Post
    And your answer to my question?
    as to your specific question: i have done no rallying of any sort
    as to your rhetorical question: i wonder if anyone really fully understands anything, when it all gets down to it.

    while i have you, i got the last (i hope..) rat with poison. it is now decomposing in some inaccessible spot, causing a pervasive smell of Deceased Thing, in the house. anyway, to my surprise, i discovered the attached note next to the poison. freaky!

    Last edited by alexander; 4th February 2017 at 01:21 PM.

  21. #21
    IWS
    IWS is offline
    1000+ Posts IWS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Hawthorn East, Vic.
    Posts
    1,289

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    as to your specific question: i have done no rallying of any sort
    as to your rhetorical question: i wonder if anyone really fully understands anything, when it all gets down to it.

    while i have you, i got the last (i hope..) rat with poison. it is now decomposing in some inaccessible spot, causing a pervasive smell of Deceased Thing, in the house. anyway, to my surprise, i discovered the attached note next to the poison. freaky!
    Goodness, feeling nihilistic today are you? Do any of us really understand anything?, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it all does it make a sound? and all that ... Deep.

    And the Smell of Deceased Thing that plagues you - might be payback for your previous live-rats-in-the bin behaviour? Just saying.

    (And don't like I feel like a total fool for thinking that you meant the Melway thing literally. Talk about feeling silly ....)

    Ian.

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    personally, i have now completely lost track of which parts of either of our posts, are actually serious. if any, of course.

    i can, however, put the rest the eternal question about the tree and the forest. the answer is NO.
    sound is your perception of a pressure wave, and exists inside your head only. so if you arent there, neither is the sound.

    ----------------
    back to the video, i was most amused by the fact that he is driving a race car on a public road on a non race day, and apparently quite quickly indeed, despite cyclists and cars on the wrong side of the road!
    IWS likes this.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,669

    Default

    I'd suggest it's a bit early for someone to be getting on the sauce, but hey, we know what it's like in Sydney....................
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    sydney, australia
    Posts
    11,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I'd suggest it's a bit early for someone to be getting on the sauce, but hey, we know what it's like in Sydney....................


    touche!

  25. #25
    IWS
    IWS is offline
    1000+ Posts IWS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Hawthorn East, Vic.
    Posts
    1,289

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    personally, i have now completely lost track of which parts of either of our posts, are actually serious. if any, of course.
    Well there you go again, being deep

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post

    i can, however, put the rest the eternal question about the tree and the forest. the answer is NO.
    sound is your perception of a pressure wave, and exists inside your head only. so if you arent there, neither is the sound.
    Not so fast! Sound, in simple terms, is a hearable noise. So the tree falling could have been heard, event though nobody was around to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    back to the video, i was most amused by the fact that he is driving a race car on a public road on a non race day, and apparently quite quickly indeed, despite cyclists and cars on the wrong side of the road!
    Oh yes! France, the 50's - fast and loose. Who cares about a race car at speed on a pubic road. I especially like the bit where the car (what is it? I thought a 750 at first, but it seems to large) rapidly gets back to the right side of the road as the Jag looms up - and the cyclist wobbling around on the centre line.

    Ian.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •