Disconnected Ramblings

For the uninitiated, G3 refers to the Commerciale. The Familiale is an F3. And car numbers for both varieties started at 1.400.001. I find it hard to imagine why a Familiale would be chosen for this trip given that its seating arrangements are not suitable for sleeping purposes. Sleeping must have been a consideration given the blanked out rear windows. Again, I point out the recognition points for a Commerciale.
 
Great, you've made your point. Dumont made an error I repeated. Perhaps Cortanze misremembered? I spend some time researching to put up unpublished material to give people pleasure. I enjoy putting up material people find interesting. It takes quite bit of time bringing things together. There is no pleasure to me when I spend some time putting together a piece from a number of sources and some prick doesn't have the decency to say thank you that was interesting but delights in finding an error. The reason serious motor historians do not publish on the net. The anonymous internet sniper. Well here's your chance, the threads all yours now, put up your material for the pleasure of others because sure as hell I'm not in the game of being an Aunt Sally for some anonymous git. I will not post in this thread again.
The last seven copies of my book are on sale in Sydney.
www.automotobookshop.com.au

Peugeot and Australia 1888 to 1975 (Signed by Russell Hall)

Peugeot and Australia 1888 to 1975, a book by Russell Hall ISBN: 9780646988146, published in 2018, paperback, 177 pages.
www.automotobookshop.com.au www.automotobookshop.com.au
 
Russell, and I'm sure that all would agree, your threads are gold. Apart from you possessing an obvious literary talent, I'm constantly amazed at the info you come up with. Not only is this thread great reading, it will serve as a very worthwhile reference for the future.
 
Peter C said:
Russell, and I'm sure that all would agree, your threads are gold. Apart from you possessing an obvious literary talent, I'm constantly amazed at the info you come up with. Not only is this thread great reading, it will serve as a very worthwhile reference for the future.
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I second those comments. Russell, would you please reconsider?
 
fair enough Russell, however many of us appreciate your sharing your extensive research and photographs . Thank you for your many contributions, we hope you continue sharing when time and energy permit. Hope the season is producing healthy farm revenue and not too many problems .
 
Russell Hall said:
Great, you've made your point. Dumont made an error I repeated. Perhaps Cortanze misremembered? I spend some time researching to put up unpublished material to give people pleasure. I enjoy putting up material people find interesting. It takes quite bit of time bringing things together. There is no pleasure to me when I spend some time putting together a piece from a number of sources and some prick doesn't have the decency to say thank you that was interesting but delights in finding an error. The reason serious motor historians do not publish on the net. The anonymous internet sniper. Well here's your chance, the threads all yours now, put up your material for the pleasure of others because sure as hell I'm not in the game of being an Aunt Sally for some anonymous git. I will not post in this thread again.
The last seven copies of my book are on sale in Sydney.
www.automotobookshop.com.au

Peugeot and Australia 1888 to 1975 (Signed by Russell Hall)

Peugeot and Australia 1888 to 1975, a book by Russell Hall ISBN: 9780646988146, published in 2018, paperback, 177 pages.
www.automotobookshop.com.au www.automotobookshop.com.au
Click to expand...
Russell, your wealth of information and photographs is endlessly fascinating and greatly valued. One of the perils of research is inadvertently republishing inaccurate information because we're all human and even when we were actually there we don't remember things with pin point accuracy. One letter, such as F or G is one button adjacent on a keyboard and while potentially reasonable in context for a model designation can still be just a basic typographic error. The great benefit of publishing here for keenly interested and supportive readers is being open to peer review and being able to identify information that is questionable, or cars that are standard or modified for purpose and thereby improving the pool of knowledge for all.
 
a Fregate decapatable also from the 1959 event

img_2015.jpg
 
Russell Hall said:
Great, you've made your point. Dumont made an error I repeated. Perhaps Cortanze misremembered? I spend some time researching to put up unpublished material to give people pleasure. I enjoy putting up material people find interesting. It takes quite bit of time bringing things together. There is no pleasure to me when I spend some time putting together a piece from a number of sources and some prick doesn't have the decency to say thank you that was interesting but delights in finding an error. The reason serious motor historians do not publish on the net. The anonymous internet sniper. Well here's your chance, the threads all yours now, put up your material for the pleasure of others because sure as hell I'm not in the game of being an Aunt Sally for some anonymous git. I will not post in this thread again.
The last seven copies of my book are on sale in Sydney.
www.automotobookshop.com.au

Peugeot and Australia 1888 to 1975 (Signed by Russell Hall)

Peugeot and Australia 1888 to 1975, a book by Russell Hall ISBN: 9780646988146, published in 2018, paperback, 177 pages.
www.automotobookshop.com.au www.automotobookshop.com.au
Click to expand...
Yes Mr Hall, the Peugeot forum has, always been a shit place, to engage in. Thank you for lasting so long. Every bastard knows everything, since 1999.
 
shibuichi said:
Russell, your wealth of information and photographs is endlessly fascinating and greatly valued. One of the perils of research is inadvertently republishing inaccurate information because we're all human and even when we were actually there we don't remember things with pin point accuracy. One letter, such as F or G is one button adjacent on a keyboard and while potentially reasonable in context for a model designation can still be just a basic typographic error. The great benefit of publishing here for keenly interested and supportive readers is being open to peer review and being able to identify information that is questionable, or cars that are standard or modified for purpose and thereby improving the pool of knowledge for all.
Click to expand...
Very well put - don't all historians & scientists endure (if not actually embrace) peer review?
 
A bit about the 404C. In 1959 Pininfarina designed the Cadillac Starlight and more than a couple of features of this car are recognisable in the 404 Coupé and Cabriolet.
Cadillac Starlight 1959.jpeg

The 404 C was already in development for Peugeot as early as 1958, the reported date of this STOLA buck:
1958 STOLA Master Model 404C 1958.jpeg


When the 404C models went into production in 1961, the process was rather complex:
  • the basic floorpan and other lower elements were stamped out at Sochaux, mostly similar to those of the Sedan, but with a couple of minor differences.
  • These were loaded onto trains at Sochaux and offloaded at Pininfarina near Torino.
  • Pininfarina then stamped with a cold chisel a number into the rear floor near what in the sedan was the spare tire well. The number starts with an 8 or 9 for units destined for a Cabriolet, and a 11 for Coupé floorpans.
  • (the Pininfarina number on some C models repeats on small metal tags welded to the trunk lid, but not all 404Cs had this.)
Pininfarina Number Coupé.png
 
Carrying on, Pininfarina then added the rest of the body from Italian stamped steel. At this time, the assembly of the cars was rather labour-intensive. Built alongside the 404 C were other more widely distributed popular sports cars.

404.jpg


Pininfarina factory.jpg


404CPininfarina1.png


The first Pininfarina-built Peugeot production car was the Cabriolet version of the 404, as shown in the above photo of some early cars. To the Peugeot-supplied floorpans were added considerable reinforcements in the sills, in order to make the monocoque sufficiently stiff to not suffer from excessive cowl shake.

When the 404 Coupé was introduced in 1962 as a 1963 model, it had the same reinforcements as the Cabriolet plus the added stiffness of a permanent roof structure, so the Coupé shell was exceptionally strong. I can attest to this personally, as my first 404 Coupé was a very rusty car when I bought it, and yet it was a lot stiffer over crooked speed bumps than a similarly rusty 404 sedan that I drove some years later.

The 404C models were built up, painted, interiors done and exterior trim all fitted. Only the Carrosserie Peugeot tags were on the shell when it was painted at Pininfarina; the VIN plates and cold chisel of same were applied in Sochaux when the mechanical elements were fitted. So on 404C models, the Carrosserie Peugeot tag should be painted body colour, and the VIN cold chiselled into the right spring tower area chipped the paint and as a result they always looked a little unfinished there!

On temporary steel wheels, the shells were shipped back up to Sochaux by train. These were wheeled into storage areas and when an order for a particular colour came in, the car was put onto the later part of the regular assembly line, where the mechanical elements were fitted. The C models had particular springs, but generally the mechanical equipment was the same as that of the sedan.

One interesting detail is that the fuel injected models had two minor differences in the shell: there was a steel tongue to support the Purflux fuel filter/decanter welded to the shell near the radiator, which - if the car ordered was to be carbureted but the only shell in that colour had the tongue, it was sawn off and the end painted body colour. This was more prevalent in the later models than in the earlier ones. The other difference is a stud welded to the lower radiator crossmember to support the AEG-KF fuel lift pump.
 
A couple of variations existed:
  • Canadian models (I estimate around 80-100 cars were built for Canada) were all equipped with MPH speedometers, red rear indicators for the most part and floor shifters. In the C3 gearbox cars (through 1968 models) the Nardi floor shifter was used. The kit, installed at the Peugeot factory, included not only the shifter itself, but also a cover plate in black plastic for the shifter hole in the steering column, a different centre tunnel carpet piece as well as an external fibreglass shell over the area, to attenuate the noise inherent in having the inspection plate for the gearbox totally open (although sealed with rubber).
  • British models were converted to RHD in the Peugeot Distributors Ltd. workshops in Croydon England - a total of 79 cars were reportedly so converted and they were so well done that it's nearly impossible to tell they were converted at all.
 
Given the foregoing I should explain that I'm not into vindictive sniping or personal abuse on this or any other website. My purpose in posting was to present correct information based on a clear photograph. Having conducted extensive research on the 203U while restoring my U6A I feel confident of having a sound knowledge of the subject. If I can help others with some of this knowledge all the better.

Russell, you should appreciate that argument can take two forms. The first is for irrational or abusive motives. The second is for robust discussion of facts with a view to reaching a mutually sustainable conclusion without offending the parties concerned. This is a principle adopted in all academic pursuits, including history. Something we should all embrace with gusto.

I'm sorry that you feel I've sought to attack your personal integrity - this is far from the truth. Please accept my regrets and continue to use this forum for its intended purpose - disbursement of information which can benefit its readers and contributors.

Tony Watson
 
Hi Russel, this thread, your disconnected ramblings discussion thread is the only thread I follow at AF now. As a 203 enthusiast from a young age, long ago, I look forward to your updates and I own and enjoyed reading your book which I think its time I read again. As above you have many supporters here.

A suggestion, while I dislike facebook you could create an FB group and be clear on the standards of behavior and rules you expect particularly in relation to differences in opinion. I and others do this to good affect on the Peugeot Club Victoria's and HRA's FB pages and this means anyone rude or obnoxious can be warned or permanently blocked, it works very well.
 
To be fair to Russell and all users, I refer you to the rules set down by Russell himself in post #1.
Russell Hall said:
As the title says, a thread for disconnected ramblings about early Peugeots. It can wander wherever it wants and opinions are welcome.View attachment 210497
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Yes good point, but also 'ramblings' versus 'robust discussions of facts'? I reckon if the people in this thread were at a party we would get along like a house on fire with our shared interest. Since we are talking about old French cars rather than some 'existential crisis' maybe the 'strong opinions lightly held' approach would work better.
 
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