Protecting young drivers Victorian licensing system evaluation
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 35
  1. #1
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Victoria
    Posts
    12,581

    Icon14 Protecting young drivers Victorian licensing system evaluation

    Probationary drivers have more crashes than anyone else using the roads, and car crashes are the number one killer of young people. The graph below shows that the first year of driving on a probationary licence is the most dangerous.
    Use this link to access both the graphs and information on the beneficial changes to the Victorian Probational Licensing and the evaluation of those changes and also the extended licence training hours of driving and testing procedures.

    Advertisement



    http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/...singSystem.htm

    Victoria's Graduated Licensing System Evaluation

    Download a copy of Victoria's Graduated Licensing System Evaluation Interim Report [PDF, 201KB, 42pp]

    Some food for thought for parents, and young drivers.

    Ken

  2. #2
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Romsey, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,904

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Use this link to access both the graphs and information on the beneficial changes to the Victorian Probational Licensing and the evaluation of those changes and also the extended licence training hours of driving and testing procedures.


    http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/...singSystem.htm

    Victoria's Graduated Licensing System Evaluation

    Download a copy of Victoria's Graduated Licensing System Evaluation Interim Report [PDF, 201KB, 42pp]

    Some food for thought for parents, and young drivers.

    Ken
    Started reading it but goes to long.

    Problem is in this country I'm sure the people who make the laws were never young adults. They must have been born as old nerds.

    I agree with the alcohol rules but the number of passengers is a problem.
    All it does is make kids break the law, its not unusual to have a mate in the boot, either that or take 2 cars. You know what happens when 2 cars driven by P platers are going to the same place? They race of course.

    My kids admit to carrying someone in the boot at more than one time whilst on red P's

    120hrs? We live in the country and everywhere we go is at highway speeds for at least an hour, therefore both my kids clocked up a lot more than 120hrs. Plus it was at highway speeds so hours per kilometer I bet they did a lot more kms than a city kid at 60 kph in stop start traffic and yet bot of them had bad crashes and wrote off there cars within the first 2 months. Both at well below the state limit of 100kph.
    Both in fairly low powered cars (Fuego and 306) both times 100% legal.

    Happened purely because of inexperience in those condidtions.

    It really pisses me off that kids are taught to obey the road laws and not how to drive. There taught to be m.m. perfect at stop lines but not how to control a car.

    Rachael failed her first time because making a right hand turn the right rear wheel crossed the centre line by about half the wheel width. Crossing centre line, instant failure. This intersection is very tight and they deliberately use it just to catch the kids out. Next time she was ready for it.

    Point is when she rolled the 306 she was only doing 70 in a 100 zone and because of loose stones that the council had only just put down she lost control.

    I would much rather see the kids taken to a nearby race track (preferably dirt) and told that if they can't do a lap in under X number of seconds they can't drive. Not fast enough to break the lap record but fast enough so that the car takes on a bit of attitude on the corners.

    Advanced driving lessons shouldn't exsist, they should be part of your normal driving test.
    120 hrs, 200 hrs, 1000 hrs won't make a scrap of difference.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    frenchconnect@bigpond.com

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,310

    Default

    I think we all forget the government is only interested to make sure you satisfy the conditions to get insurance. They don't actually care if you survive or not or kill others or not. Hence they only do the minimum necessary to cover their collective arse.

    The problem is not if you're a danger to yourself, but the way I understand the social contract the govt has to make sure the other drivers don't put my life in danger. Knowing and obeying the road rules does not guarantee that, and that is why I would expect a higher level of driver training required to get a licence.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  4. #4
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,130

    Default

    I tend to agree David.

    They don't learn to drive, they learn the road rules and how to steer.
    Ample power, automatic gearboxes, power steering, ABS and sometimes even traction control. They come through the P-plate years believing they are brilliant drivers, whereas in reality, it is a bunch of engineers at somewhere like Robert Bosch GmbH that is keeping them on the road.

    I know it isn't really practical - and heaven forbid, it's probably even dangerous - but they would learn much more if they learnt in substandard cars.

    But no - all you need to do to drive is turn up the bass, give the right-hand pedal a squirt, and hold the wheel with a light grip using the fingers of one hand. That is until something unexpected happens.

    Judging by what I see around me, many young women are even worse. Not only do many of them now drive like young males, they do so with 80% more inattentiveness.

    The late great Peter Brock was a perfect example of how the lightning fast reflexes of the young usually can't match the ingrained set of learned responses to situations that only come from repeated and repeated experience.

  5. #5
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,505

    Default

    I just had a quick look at the graph and the first thing that comes to mind is the old Army saying - "Bullshit baffles brains".

    I would be astonished if young inexperienced drivers WEREN'T over represented in the statistics. In any skill based activity, practice and experience have a major impact on the skill level achieved.

    When looking at the graph, there is a very low risk for an accompanied learner driver, who has the benefit of an experience mentor able to do the analysing and thinking for them in untoward circumstances.

    When they obtain their licence and start to drive solo, that is when THEY have to make ALL the decisions in an instant and then act on them in the most appropriate way. Luck and near misses and the anti avoidance actions of other drivers hopefully get the majority through this period (remember these people have just gotten through adolescence and puberty unaided).

    The accident rate plummetts during the first year from about 1200 to around 400, at which stage it levels out and stabilises.

    There is nothing on the graph to suggest that the yellow learning period, however long it is, is going to have a dramatic effect on the solo/inexperienced driver in charge phase. The yellow graph is fairly constant from beginning to end.

    That road deaths are the major cause of young people's deaths is a reflection of both the risk of driving and the lack of other risks causing deaths. I have left out death from drug use and suicide in which young people are also over represented. Things that aren't a factor in youth deaths are diseases of old age, or the road deaths caused by senility. These are risk factors that increase with age. More sailors die at sea than camel herders. Statistics with no context are the product of raddled public servants who just need to produce an answer (right, wrong or indifferent).

    There are many different ways of attacking this problem if indeed it is a problem. One would be to supply all probationary drivers with a brand new state-of-the-art safety equipped car so that they may better survive a crash. I guess that currently, they are probably driving old, second hand cars that are bought on (cheap) price. Let the old people drive the old bangers. They are probably happy and familiar with them and they have a greater choice of imminent ways to die, not just in a road accident.

    Still, I guess if you can't think, increasing the learning hours, or dropping the speed limits or increasing the number of women assigned to a pregnancy (to reduce the time taken) are ways to pretend that you are solving the problem.

    I don't know if the hours have changed now, but when I did my Private Pilot's Licence, it took about 10 hours of dual control before I soloed. Another 20 hours of a mix of solo practice and dual supervision before undergoing my licence test. I then had a restricted private pilot's licence. After completing a further 20 hours of cross country flying, landing and taking off from unfamiliar airfields as well as navigating from place to place, I had my restriction removed. There was no further test involved as successful return to base was sufficient to presume navigation was ok.

    So, we are talking about 30 hours to fly a light aircraft against 120 hours to drive a car. At a guess, I would say whether its 30 hours or 300 hours to learn to drive a car, the statistics will always read the same - an inordinate number of young people die in car accidents. Its the way we weed out the really bad or unlucky ones, just as Charles Darwin predicted.

    John

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Melbourne Victoria
    Posts
    12,581

    Icon5 Never perfect but maybe a step in the right direction?

    As one involved on the periphery of this and trying to make things safer, the more extensive driving experience component directly evolved out of identified problems with giving out licences to all and sundry if you passed (ticked the right boxes) without much emphasis on skill based training to drive a car. They then survived being let loose on the roads at a time of reduced active patrol policing, not to mention the effects of other risk issues like drug experimentation and the bravado of youth.

    That probably as much as anything set the high rate of driver death in place. The new system does put more emphasis on gaining skill and driving experience and there are good pre-driver programs available in schools that take up those programs, in their choice of curriculum.

    All road safety programs must be able to be evaluated, and this is an attempt to show that it is working and reducing the rate of death, where one death if it is your child is one to many. Young people are experts at circumventing restrictions or adapting behaviour to suit their needs. I had wondered about the ramifications of the passenger restriction, though that grew out of the horror of multiple deaths as a result of showing off, and egging on inexperienced drivers (peer pressure) and was partly a knee jerk reaction to public pressure to do "something".

    It seems that drivers will take a risk if they presume they can get away with circumventing restrictions, and a strong policing effort may be required to intercept and check that drivers are complying. That has always been an issue as many police don't like concentrating their efforts on one class of drivers to the exclusion of other more potential fully licensed drivers who they see as more of a menace in the offences they commit.

    Much the way that police didn't like intercepting Probationary licence holders for minor speed infringements (in their opinion) that involved mandatory cancellation of licence. Its unfortunate that car clubs have such a declining influence with the advent of the internet, as I know many clubs do undertake and take up skill training and discussions for guidance of young drivers as the RCCV did in past years.

    The internet has fragmented the effect of car club influence, and some real injection of funding for skill training and advanced driver training is really needed and a well thought out motor sport mix of available venues and emphasis on eliminating gaps in skill training, and developing those skills on the track for younger drivers rather than ad hoc risk taking on roads.

    there have been some good programs, but none with extended skill training to produce safe drivers for a lifetime of driving. Maybe there are too many car haters who equate extended driver training with anti social connotations, who influence our government to ignore this aspect. i.e. natural section will sort the wheat from the chaff.!

    Appreciate the comments.


    Ken

  7. #7
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Romsey, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,904

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    I tend to agree David.

    They don't learn to drive, they learn the road rules and how to steer.
    Ample power, automatic gearboxes, power steering, ABS and sometimes even traction control. They come through the P-plate years believing they are brilliant drivers, whereas in reality, it is a bunch of engineers at somewhere like Robert Bosch GmbH that is keeping them on the road.

    I know it isn't really practical - and heaven forbid, it's probably even dangerous - but they would learn much more if they learnt in substandard cars.

    But no - all you need to do to drive is turn up the bass, give the right-hand pedal a squirt, and hold the wheel with a light grip using the fingers of one hand. That is until something unexpected happens.

    Judging by what I see around me, many young women are even worse. Not only do many of them now drive like young males, they do so with 80% more inattentiveness.

    The late great Peter Brock was a perfect example of how the lightning fast reflexes of the young usually can't match the ingrained set of learned responses to situations that only come from repeated and repeated experience.


    There is a good argument about giving the people with the least amount of experience the safest cars but I'd rather they learnt to drive.

    To me, putting a young kid in a "safe" car is a bit like wrapping them up in cotton wool and not letting them play outside in the mud.

    The stats say young males are worse than young females and I remember my early years and think how lucky I was and my mates were, but we did learn how to drive.

    I'll never forget these words of wisdom when I joined the car club back in 1978.
    One the long time rally drivers of the day gave all the young guns a tip to remember.

    There's 2 way to learn how to drive a rally car fast.
    1. Buy an expensive well sorted fast and reliable rally car and practise and practise and in a few years you might be a good driver.
    2. Buy an old banger and spend a few weekends building it and drive the crap out of it. Drive it like you stole it and 1 of 2 things will happen. You'll either become a very good driver very quickly or you'll kill yourself.

    With those words alot of 16TS powered Dauphines/ 750's all emerged.

    This lesson was given to us by the late Rob Atkinson.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    frenchconnect@bigpond.com

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  8. #8
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    There is a good argument about giving the people with the least amount of experience the safest cars but I'd rather they learnt to drive.
    There is a good argument about giving the people with the least amount of experience the safest cars but I'd rather they learnt to drive.

    It reminds me of a phrase often used years ago by an old TAFE teacher friend about some of his students.
    "His confidence is only exceeded by his lack of ability."

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,213

    Default

    I'm really surprised that what I see as a big factor in driving, hasn't been mentioned yet.

    Attitude to driving is most important.

    Both my children were trained to drive with the concept of "don't expect anything from any other driver on the road". Most of all don't expect any other driver to make the road a safer place. Pretty well try not to put yourself at risk. Think with your foot off the accelerator and try to assess what is going ahead which requires distance between you and the next car.

    A caveat emptor on the road if you will.

    Learning to drive is mechanical process.

    Learning to survive and road craft requires the driver to have the correct attitude.

  10. #10
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,130

    Default

    Attitude!

    Actually Rob, I think you've nailed it in a single word.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post

    [...]

    When looking at the graph, there is a very low risk for an accompanied learner driver, who has the benefit of an experience mentor able to do the analysing and thinking for them in untoward circumstances.

    [...]

    John
    I think an interested party might argue that is only part of the reason, the other part being that teenagers behave when there's adults around.

    Be that as it may, I think the driving instructor might play a serious part here too. This is based on my own son's driving and behaviour in the first and subsequent years of driving whilst on P plates. I think the instructor we got him (good old bloke) was the best money ever spent. He turned out to be a very composed and controlled young driver and didn't have any problems. That is one reason I got him a driving instructor. If I had tried to teach him, I am sure he would have taken up all my bad habits just like my wife did. Both drive very well these days (like men - i.e. you wouldn't be able to tell following one of them it was not an experienced bloke driving), but they both went different ways to get there.

    Get your kids a good instructor, resist the temptation to teach them yourself (even instructors will tell you they don't teach their kids).

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    [...]

    ... the concept of "don't expect anything but trouble from any other driver on the road".

    [...]
    That is the number one law of driving where I come form. Learn to anticipate or perish is the natural conclusion.

    But Rob, I think the others were referring to teaching new drivers car control which is a major component in being a safe driver too in my view.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 9th July 2012 at 06:02 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  12. #12
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Romsey, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,904

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I'm really surprised that what I see as a big factor in driving, hasn't been mentioned yet.

    Attitude to driving is most important.

    Both my children were trained to drive with the concept of "don't expect anything from any other driver on the road". Most of all don't expect any other driver to make the road a safer place. Pretty well try not to put yourself at risk. Think with your foot off the accelerator and try to assess what is going ahead which requires distance between you and the next car.

    A caveat emptor on the road if you will.

    Learning to drive is mechanical process.

    Learning to survive and road craft requires the driver to have the correct attitude.
    A mates father kept telling us to treat everyone else on the road as if there drunk because one day they will be.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    frenchconnect@bigpond.com

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  13. #13
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Romsey, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,904

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I think an interested party might argue that is only part of the reason, the other part being that teenagers behave when there's adults around.

    Be that as it may, I think the driving instructor might play a serious part here too. This is based on my own son's driving and behaviour in the first and subsequent years of driving whilst on P plates. I think the instructor we got him (good old bloke) was the best money ever spent. He turned out to be a very composed and controlled young driver and didn't have any problems. That is one reason I got him a driving instructor. If I had tried to teach him, I am sure he would have taken up all my bad habits just like my wife did. Both drive very well these days (like men - i.e. you wouldn't be able to tell following one of them it was not an experienced bloke driving), but they both went different ways to get there.

    Get your kids a good instructor, resist the temptation to teach them yourself (even instructors will tell you they don't teach their kids).



    That is the number one law of driving where I come form. Learn to anticipate or perish is the natural conclusion.

    But Rob, I think the others were referring to teaching new drivers car control which is a major component in being a safe driver too in my view.
    Yeah in theory you should use an intructer but 120 hrs ads up to a lot of money. I know the argument about how much value you put on your kids lives but in the real world how many parents can afford it.

    Driverdynamics do advanced driving lessons from only $90. Seems better value to me.

    Jeff Bee (RCCV member) works there as an instructor and can tell a few stories about total lack of skills from people who passed there test with flying colours.
    Jeff did a talk at a club meeting and said one of the first questions they ask is how many people know what the ABS feels like when it kicks in. You'd be surprised how many people dont.
    www.driverdynamics.com.au
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    frenchconnect@bigpond.com

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I think an interested party might argue that is only part of the reason, the other part being that teenagers behave when there's adults around.

    Be that as it may, I think the driving instructor might play a serious part here too. This is based on my own son's driving and behaviour in the first and subsequent years of driving whilst on P plates. I think the instructor we got him (good old bloke) was the best money ever spent. He turned out to be a very composed and controlled young driver and didn't have any problems. That is one reason I got him a driving instructor. If I had tried to teach him, I am sure he would have taken up all my bad habits just like my wife did. Both drive very well these days (like men - i.e. you wouldn't be able to tell following one of them it was not an experienced bloke driving), but they both went different ways to get there.

    Get your kids a good instructor, resist the temptation to teach them yourself (even instructors will tell you they don't teach their kids).



    That is the number one law of driving where I come form. Learn to anticipate or perish is the natural conclusion.



    But Rob, I think the others were referring to teaching new drivers car control which is a major component in being a safe driver too in my view.
    Yes, the instructor plays a big part too. To reinforce what the parent teaches and actually teaching the road craft.

    As to advanced concepts , I tend to think you need to clock up more than few hundred hours to get the maximum benefit from that.

    I preferred that my kids learn car control, emergency stopping, slowing down when wet and giving other vehicles a wide berth whenever possible before having an instructor. I also took the opportunity to teach reversing, parking and maneuvering in t tight places because I was appalled at the general skill set.

    It takes so long to become proficient it costs a fortune with an instructor.

    I taught both our kids to drive initially, ie gain the skills and develop the attitude. They had about 5 lessons each with old Tom (about 55) to brush them up on current road laws and skills which enabled them to pass the driving test easily.

    Unless you have a cool head and patient manner don't teach kids yourself. Personally it was too important not to do it myself.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Yes, the instructor plays a big part too. To reinforce what the parent teaches and actually teaching the road craft.

    As to advanced concepts , I tend to think you need to clock up more than few hundred hours to get the maximum benefit from that.

    I preferred that my kids learn car control, emergency stopping, slowing down when wet and giving other vehicles a wide berth whenever possible before having an instructor. I also took the opportunity to teach reversing, parking and maneuvering in t tight places because I was appalled at the general skill set.

    It takes so long to become proficient it costs a fortune with an instructor.

    I taught both our kids to drive initially, ie gain the skills and develop the attitude. They had about 5 lessons each with old Tom (about 55) to brush them up on current road laws and skills which enabled them to pass the driving test easily.

    Unless you have a cool head and patient manner don't teach kids yourself. Personally it was too important not to do it myself.

    Same here, Rob.

    By the time my son got to the lessons, he already had the basic knowledge from me and his mum. He could already drive/park, etc. But from that point on, the dynamic of parent-child relation is skewed enough that you can only teach the most docile kids which my son was not. I have a lot of patience with him (because I have no choice) but a teenager of generation Y is not the most patient of kids. That is why I liked the dynamic he had with this old and experienced guy who really pulled his head down and got some (driving) respect into him. Perhaps the attitude change was the most visible (and remarkable) achievement.

    As for advanced concepts, I don't think you need to teach much. I think what most people lack is a connection to the car. A reading of what sounds it makes, and if they are normal or not, or what is it they mean. I have bad hearing but still know how grippy the road is by the tire noise. That is my trigger and I completely unconsciously go into a different driving mode. I have met people so removed from the car they're driving, they could not tell they had the high beam on let alone identify noises and what they mean. All you have to do I think is get your young to listen to their car and pay attention (another difficult task with teenagers). Right now, my son is at the stage when rings up and describes noises his car makes and I try to identify. He's getting there.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 9th July 2012 at 10:56 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    1,419

    Default

    I am actually glad I learned in a Nissan E20 which had terrible brakes and abysmal handling.
    I practiced and practiced advanced techniques like cadence braking and used to close my eyes and visualise situations and think of the correct response, visualise the response and go over it again with a variation.
    Doing this with techniques I got from defensive driving books and the like meant that when the inevitable happened those techniques I had visualized hundreds of times just kicked in and I narrowly missed several nasty accidents while still on my learners or Ps by doing this and by assuming all other drivers were lethal.
    Once on a gravel road with a large drop, in the E20, truck came around a blind bend in the middle of the road. Cadence braking got me slowed down without losing steering and going over the edge. That gave the truck just enough room to miss me.
    Ford Transit, coming up to a sharp bend. Supra comes the other way too fast, drifts into my lane then sees me, pulls it back to his lane, loses the tail and is coming sideways towards me at high speed. No time to think but without thinking I had identified the least dangerous exit from the road, hit the brakes and steered off the road between the posts into the gravel verge. The car behind me stuck to my tail and followed. the supra was within half a metre of me as he passed.
    In either of these or many others I faced, if I had to think about what to do I would have crashed. The only reason I didn't was because I had pre-visualized similar situations in the past and gone over and over the correct responses to them. These were not taught to me by any instructor but obtained because I was a car crazy teenager who wanted to be the best driver in the world so I got every defensive driving book I could find from libraries, bookshops etc and read them obsessively almost until what they were saying was burned in my brain.
    I have taught several learners over the years and I'm sure I annoy them by banging on about these things but they have all had instances where one of those things I have rammed into them has helped.
    I am a professional driver, driving buses every day, and I like to think I am reasonably good, but I know there are lots better and for instance I am terrible at drifting (tried on a private track but my reflexes kept making me correct it without thinking about it) but I KNOW that the things I learned then and the attitude that other drivers are unpredictable has saved me many times!
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
    404, project
    2010 Mitsubishi i MiEV electric car

  17. #17
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    8,505

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Get your kids a good instructor, resist the temptation to teach them yourself (even instructors will tell you they don't teach their kids).
    My eldest daughter had all her instruction from an instructor. She is hopeless. Probably the same instructor that taught many of the other hopeless young drivers.

    My youngest daughter had me. Her first lesson was with an NRMA instructor. It was the only lesson with an instructor. She reckoned he was hopeless, too quiet and didn't explain things well. He had all the racial qualities to be a taxi driver but was probably rejected so he became an instructor.

    Having been a lucky hoon for most of my life, I was able to impart to her those values and attitudes that would increase her chances of survival, without imbedding the "hoon" element. Unlike an instructor, this wasn't a job, this was ensuring my blood line continued.

    She used an instructor for the last few lessons to brush up anything I missed, but mainly to get to know the course and the tricks to get her licence on the first try. I had always impressed upon her to set her mind on achieving her goal. If that meant trying to seek an unfair advantage to win, so be it. She got her licence first try and is a good driver.

    Neither of my daughters inherited my driving style, fortunately.

    As Robmac said, attitude is everything. Attitude, not aptitude, results in altitude. An altitude of -6 feet is indicative of an attitude problem.

    John

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    My eldest daughter had all her instruction from an instructor. She is hopeless. Probably the same instructor that taught many of the other hopeless young drivers.

    My youngest daughter had me. Her first lesson was with an NRMA instructor. It was the only lesson with an instructor. She reckoned he was hopeless, too quiet and didn't explain things well. He had all the racial qualities to be a taxi driver but was probably rejected so he became an instructor.

    Having been a lucky hoon for most of my life, I was able to impart to her those values and attitudes that would increase her chances of survival, without imbedding the "hoon" element. Unlike an instructor, this wasn't a job, this was ensuring my blood line continued.

    She used an instructor for the last few lessons to brush up anything I missed, but mainly to get to know the course and the tricks to get her licence on the first try. I had always impressed upon her to set her mind on achieving her goal. If that meant trying to seek an unfair advantage to win, so be it. She got her licence first try and is a good driver.

    Neither of my daughters inherited my driving style, fortunately.

    As Robmac said, attitude is everything. Attitude, not aptitude, results in altitude. An altitude of -6 feet is indicative of an attitude problem.

    John
    Funny you should mention NRMA instructor. My son's first instructor was RACV.

    I had taught my son how get lock on in a hurry when required. (It didn't involve crossed hands or anything like that).

    On the first lesson he complained that the dude was teaching him the "shuffling through the hands method of wheel control". Bloody hopeless because it takes too long to get lock on, especially when parking or reversing. He also complained the instructor was making sit him stationary with the clutch depressed.

    I spoke the instructor before next lesson and ask this not happen. I got a tirade about his credentials and the RACV program. He got sacked on the spot.

    Just watch the RACV taught drivers trying to turn corners at speed- they can't - the method of steering wheel control RACV teach won't allow the wheel to move fast enough.

    Our experience was RACV is not good. We found Tom at Excel to be far better. I believe older Intructors are better. They don't compete with the student. The more laid back the better IMO.

  19. #19
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,130

    Default

    The shuffle steering method, if memory serves correctly, is a hang-over from the Hendon method from the British Police driver training school. It was quite important in its day as it was designed to ensure that both hands were on the wheel at all times when cars had heavy steering, no power assistance, and an unexpected jolt could pull the wheel from your hands.

    It was abandoned as no longer necessary decades ago. It's quite bizzarre if someone is still teaching it. It's a bit like changing down through the gears as you approach a corner or are preparing to stop. This was once considered essential but that was back before brakes were as good as they have been for a few decades.

  20. #20
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Romsey, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,904

    Default

    My kids were a little different.

    My son (cav91) has had his CAMS licences since he was 12. He's been doing motorkanas and autocrosses ever since. He'd been driving since he could reach the pedals. He's had R10 paddock bombs all through his teen years. I was confident he would be ok.

    I did most of his 120 hrs, he stopped counting at about 150 hrs and truth it would have been over 200 hrs. He only had 3 lessons and the instructor and he was confident he was one of his better students. He scored one of the highest marks on his test.

    1 week later he put his Fuego into a tree and himself in hospital.
    Doing about 80 in a 100 zone on a wet cold Winters night he lost control. Why? He had a load of bricks in the boot he was taking to his mates place. Not to many that the car was illegally overloaded but enough to upset the balance of the car and being unexperienced he just stuffed up. Damn lucky non of the bricks hit him in the back of the head.

    I blame myself because I meant to warn him that the weight bias would be different but forgot to as he drove out.

    Rachael on the other hand wasn't that interested in anything with more than 1 horsepower. In fact cars were only things you used to bring home horse feed in.
    She drove Chris's paddock bombs so she did know the basics of driving, clutch control and hill starts and manuvering in tight spaces around on the trees in the back paddock but had never driven fast like Chris had.

    Even that she had clocked up more than her 120hrs and had the same instructor and once again was one of his top students. Yes she failed her first attempt but that wasn't because she couldn't drive just got caught on a Vicroads trap. She was ready for it next time and passed with flying colours.

    2 months later she rolled her 306 and put herself in hospital. On a fairly windy road with 100 limits she was only doing 70 because of the bends and she is a safe driver. She saw the fresh gravel that had only just been layed and slowed to about 60. She doesn't know what happened next, she remembers the car skidded sideways and knew about turning into the skid but next thing she knows is that she's upside down in a farmers paddock.

    We'd talked about sliding and car control but when it came time to put the theory into practice I think she froze. This is why I think she should have defensive driving lessons and I think they should be compulsary.

    Knowing what to do is one thing, doing it when the time comes is something else.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    frenchconnect@bigpond.com

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    The shuffle steering method, if memory serves correctly, is a hang-over from the Hendon method from the British Police driver training school. It was quite important in its day as it was designed to ensure that both hands were on the wheel at all times when cars had heavy steering, no power assistance, and an unexpected jolt could pull the wheel from your hands.

    It was abandoned as no longer necessary decades ago. It's quite bizzarre if someone is still teaching it. It's a bit like changing down through the gears as you approach a corner or are preparing to stop. This was once considered essential but that was back before brakes were as good as they have been for a few decades.


    Just take note of the RACV learner cars and lots of young people. You can pick the middle age ladies who use the method because of the RACV safe driver stickers.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    19,213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    My kids were a little different.

    My son (cav91) has had his CAMS licences since he was 12. He's been doing motorkanas and autocrosses ever since. He'd been driving since he could reach the pedals. He's had R10 paddock bombs all through his teen years. I was confident he would be ok.

    I did most of his 120 hrs, he stopped counting at about 150 hrs and truth it would have been over 200 hrs. He only had 3 lessons and the instructor and he was confident he was one of his better students. He scored one of the highest marks on his test.

    1 week later he put his Fuego into a tree and himself in hospital.
    Doing about 80 in a 100 zone on a wet cold Winters night he lost control. Why? He had a load of bricks in the boot he was taking to his mates place. Not to many that the car was illegally overloaded but enough to upset the balance of the car and being unexperienced he just stuffed up. Damn lucky non of the bricks hit him in the back of the head.

    I blame myself because I meant to warn him that the weight bias would be different but forgot to as he drove out.

    Rachael on the other hand wasn't that interested in anything with more than 1 horsepower. In fact cars were only things you used to bring home horse feed in.
    She drove Chris's paddock bombs so she did know the basics of driving, clutch control and hill starts and manuvering in tight spaces around on the trees in the back paddock but had never driven fast like Chris had.

    Even that she had clocked up more than her 120hrs and had the same instructor and once again was one of his top students. Yes she failed her first attempt but that wasn't because she couldn't drive just got caught on a Vicroads trap. She was ready for it next time and passed with flying colours.

    2 months later she rolled her 306 and put herself in hospital. On a fairly windy road with 100 limits she was only doing 70 because of the bends and she is a safe driver. She saw the fresh gravel that had only just been layed and slowed to about 60. She doesn't know what happened next, she remembers the car skidded sideways and knew about turning into the skid but next thing she knows is that she's upside down in a farmers paddock.

    We'd talked about sliding and car control but when it came time to put the theory into practice I think she froze. This is why I think she should have defensive driving lessons and I think they should be compulsary.

    Knowing what to do is one thing, doing it when the time comes is something else.
    Wasn't fatigue a factor in the recent contretemps?

    A lot of previous learning and training goes out the window when the driver is tired or intoxicated for that matter. The driver's preset "safety margins" tend to be ignored.

  23. #23
    WLB
    WLB is offline
    1000+ Posts WLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Warragul, Vic.
    Posts
    1,130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Wasn't fatigue a factor in the recent contretemps?

    A lot of previous learning and training goes out the window when the driver is tired or intoxicated for that matter. The driver's preset "safety margins" tend to be ignored.
    About 9 months ago when my son had been driving on Ls for about 6 months, he accompanied my on a work trip during the school holidays. Warragul to Yea to Seymour to Rochester to Cobram to Wodonga to Beechworth to Benalla to Healesville and back to Warragul. Monday to Friday and he did all the driving with lots of breaks for stretching the legs, etc.

    We were up past Elmore heading towards Rochester, about 30 minutes after our previous 10 minute break. All those straight, flat, monotonous roads. We'd run out of things to talk about so it had been silent for awhile. We were sitting behind a row of about 4 cars doing about 95. He began to move to the right slightly across the white line. I thought he was looking ahead with a view to overtaking. I was about to comment that 95 was fine and in a situation like that you just go with the flow of the traffic. But before I could say anything I realized that he was still moving out - no indicators on. This all happened very slowly but probably in a short space of time - you know what I mean. Then came the realization that he was asleep at the wheel. We were now more on the wrong side than on the left, straddling the line. I could see ahead and there was no traffic coming towards us. I moved my hand close to the wheel and said his name calmly. He "came to" and moved back to the left of the road smoothly and then pulled over a bit further up.

    We had another 10 minute break and I drove the rest of the way to Rochester while he slept.
    It really shook him. He said his eyes were open and he was looking ahead but he couldn't see. The boredom and monotony had taken over. As it turned out there had been no immediate risk, but I think it was a valuable lesson and I told him so. We discussed it quite a bit that night and how he could have hit an oncoming car, or continued to drift across into the trees on the other side. We also discussed how if everyone in the car is in the same state or you are alone, you probably wouldn't survive. He now knows how easy it is to drift off and that you have no control over it. The only solution is to avoid the situation that creates it.

    He has also been a keen cyclist since he was about 14. He's done the Great Vic twice at 14 and 15 and saved up for his own serious road bike. The hidden advantages of this activity is that before he started driving, he already had a built-in appreciation of other road users and the hidden perils presented by various road surfaces and how grip is sometimes tenuous.
    Last edited by WLB; 10th July 2012 at 12:21 PM.

  24. #24
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Romsey, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,904

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WLB View Post
    About 9 months ago when my son had been driving on Ls for about 6 months, he accompanied my on a work trip during the school holidays. Warragul to Yea to Seymour to Rochester to Cobram to Wodonga to Beechworth to Benalla to Healesville and back to Warragul. Monday to Friday and he did all the driving with lots of breaks for stretching the legs, etc.

    We were up past Elmore heading towards Rochester, about 30 minutes after our previous 10 minute break. All those straight, flat, monotonous roads. We'd run out of things to talk about so it had been silent for awhile. We were sitting behind a row of about 4 cars doing about 95. He began to move to the right slightly across the white line. I thought he was looking ahead with a view to overtaking. I was about to comment that 95 was fine and in a situation like that you just go with the flow of the traffic. But before I could say anything I realized that he was still moving out - no indicators on. This all happened very slowly but probably in a short space of time - you know what I mean. Then came the realization that he was asleep at the wheel. We were now more on the wrong side than on the left, straddling the line. I could see ahead and there was no cars coming towards us. I moved my hand close to the wheel and said his name calmly. He "came to" and moved back to the left of the road smoothly and then pulled over a bit further up.

    Wehad another 10 minute break and I drove the rest of the way to Rochester while he slept.
    It really shook him. He said his eyes were open and he was looking ahead but he couldn't see. The boredom and monotony had taken over. As it turned out there had been no immediate risk, but I think it was a valuable lesson and I told him so. We discussed it quite a bit that night. He no knows how easy it is to drift off and that you have no control over it. The only solution is to avoid the situation that creates it.

    He has also been a keen cyclist since he was about 15. He's done the Great Vic twice at 14 and 15 and saved up for his own serious road bike. The hidden advantages of this activity is that before he started driving, he already had a built-in appreciation of other road users and the hidden perils presented by various road surfaces and how grip is sometimes tenuous.
    You both were extreamly lucky. my daughter wasn't as lucky but luckier then some.

    robmac,
    It was her second crash in the Mi16 when she fell asleep and wondered into the bushes on the Hume freeway. The first one when she rolled the 306 was just inexperience.

    We've all pushed the limits when it comes to sleep, some are lucky some are not. Rachael was lucky WLB was very lucky.

    Theres 2 ladies my wife works with, one has a nephew who fell asleep on the Calder and the car went across into oncoming traffic and killed an inocent coming the other way.
    The guy has made a full recovery physically but is still seeing councilers and still having nightmares. He can't sleep and has no confidence at anything. He was charged and paid his dept but he is scared for life.

    The second lady was best friends of the victim and she sees it that he should never be allowed out of prision let alone drive again.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    frenchconnect@bigpond.com

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    9,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post

    [...]

    I believe older Intructors are better. They don't compete with the student. The more laid back the better IMO.
    I agree.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •