Workers face 'disaster' at doomed Paris Peugeot plant
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts purrr-geot's Avatar
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    Default Workers face 'disaster' at doomed Paris Peugeot plant

    Dont know what models they make at the Paris plant but i suggest you dont buy one thats made there

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    http://www.france24.com/en/20120705-...ot_plant_would

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    I hope our C4 for August/Sept is off the line already!

    This plant builds Citroens too. It is also the location, in a separate building, of the Citroen Conservatoire.
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    Banned dino's Avatar
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    I m sick of these production line workers earning more that most teachers and nurses... I m speaking from the Aussie perspective and assuming scenario is similar in france... I ve got mates here who have trouble filling their car building cars and claiming this and that... and they are always wanting this and that...Its time we recognize global value of line production labour and they get paid as per the Korean and Vietnamese worker... SEE what they think of that idea...





    dino
    Last edited by dino; 6th July 2012 at 09:53 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! le frogg 205's Avatar
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    dino your going a bit to far mate !. this is a site for french car lovers before posting shit about world war 2 .if your not happy with your french car get rid of it and leave this site

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    Quote Originally Posted by le frogg 205 View Post
    dino your going a bit to far mate !. this is a site for french car lovers before posting shit about world war 2 .if your not happy with your french car get rid of it and leave this site
    you think so? So you think its ok for an automotive production worker to earn the money they do for the type of work they do... This greed has bought manufacturing in this country to its knees... How can we stay competitive when our workers want the wages they do...


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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dino View Post
    you think so? So you think its ok for an automotive production worker to earn the money they do for the type of work they do... This greed has bought manufacturing in this country to its knees... How can we stay competitive when our workers want the wages they do...



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    I thought they were going to build Opels and GM was going to close German plants?
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    Banned dino's Avatar
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    I m a big fan of the:

    A fair day's wage for a fair day's work
    but this must be reflected by quality and sophistication of work...

    Look at some of the craftsmanship that the "asian" worker brings to the table... and compare to the "crap" offered by the western worker (especially north american)... Honestly, these guys think they are gods or something considering their demands...
    We as a society need to "recognize" and reward quality work... not just the "job" but the qualifications needed to obtain it... seriously, how many here think a plumber is worth 200K a year... if you do then yes you probably have trouble tying your shoelaces... I m simply not interested in the opinion of those who do not know how to check the oil level in their car...

    FWIW, I am a labor man... I just can not stand incompetency...



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    I must say that when I worked at Renault many years ago pay wasn't fancy and quite a lot less than a teacher. But that was a long time ago. Most of the work force were recently arrived migrants and the southern Europeans had the attitude to assembly quality that made the Alfasud famous. In those days assembly line work wasn't popular and labour turnover high. Quite a few Yugoslavs (didn't differentiate back then). Renault was considered a good place to work but conditions at Ford were always hard and industrial relations poisonous. I never saw the Vietnamese who came later to assembly line work but I wondered if they could improve the quality.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dino View Post
    I m a big fan of the:

    but this must be reflected by quality and sophistication of work...

    Look at some of the craftsmanship that the "asian" worker brings to the table... and compare to the "crap" offered by the western worker (especially north american)... Honestly, these guys think they are gods or something considering their demands...
    We as a society need to "recognize" and reward quality work... not just the "job" but the qualifications needed to obtain it... seriously, how many here think a plumber is worth 200K a year... if you do then yes you probably have trouble tying your shoelaces... I m simply not interested in the opinion of those who do not know how to check the oil level in their car...

    FWIW, I am a labor man... I just can not stand incompetency...



    dino
    Your arrogance is only exceeded by your astonishing ignorance, Dino. I bet London to a Brick you wouldn't last a full day on an assembly line in any car or truck plant anywhere. I reckon you'd have an engine dropped on your head before morning tea, and that's only if your co-workers could wait that long.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Don't go off the rails. The problem is France wide. It is not the salaries paid to specific workers that is the issue, it is the on costs imposed by the curious social model that France has chosen to adopt over several decades and now cannot afford. There is no blame to pointed at the workers, it is the fault of political popularism from all sides of politics since the economic boom of the 60's which has led to social wealth redistribution with borrowed money. Now that de-industrialisation is a feature of the mature economies the endless growth that was need to fuel this type of dream world has come to an end.
    The only solution for the ongoing viability of automotive manufacturers here is to serve their markets from a cost base that produces competitive cars. As they have to globalise to compete they are divorcing themselves from the interests of France and like their competitors, employing where they have to.
    There is going to be a lot of social pain here until the country cuts its overall standard of living to become competitive again and works out how to get its debt back into a manageable level. The government seems more concerned with holding back the social pressures than taking real economic steps to restore competitiveness. Just like Australia, the US and a dozen other advanced countries, the government holds one lever controlling the distribution of wealth but the other one, of creating it, is no longer in their hands.
    I was at the factory a couple of days ago and got a sense of the local feeling. They realise closure is inevitable and the political noise is about getting the best possible exit payments.

    It is another Detroit. Meanwhile both PSA and Renault have strong programmes to improve quality, a key to survival and their moves to lower cost countries and operations gives them more scope to improve it.
    The new Clio 4 is arriving on the market this month, with the mass market models coming from North African assembly lines and that is the way forward.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 6th July 2012 at 11:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Your arrogance is only exceeded by your astonishing ignorance, Dino. I bet London to a Brick you wouldn't last a full day on an assembly line in any car or truck plant anywhere. I reckon you'd have an engine dropped on your head before morning tea, and that's only if your co-workers could wait that long.

    I ve done it before... I could do the job with my eyes closed... any time, any place... A private enterprise that made replica td2000 was way harder... each car was made on a single non moving platform... assembly was a perfect "dance" that demonstrated complete focus and coordination... most production workers would fall over themselves in such an environment...



    dino

    Gerry, r u saying the automotive unions have not assisted in the demise of competitive levels... from a cost perspective...
    Last edited by dino; 6th July 2012 at 10:42 PM.

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    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Last I heard this plant only builds C3s. It's got the same problem as the UK Ryton plant had, in that it was old and small - or so the management line went.

    There is talk of Poissy (the other Paris plant) ramping down some of its other lines (DS3, 208) so that they can build Aulnay's C3s there. Poissy already produces the C3 but obviously they need to build Aulnay's cars somewhere.

    Poissy is an ex-SIMCA plant that was acquired with the Chrysler Europe assets.

    The C4 is made in Mulhouse, so I'd say that's as safe as houses as far as PSA's French factories are concerned
    Last edited by SLC206; 7th July 2012 at 11:16 AM.
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dino View Post
    Gerry, r u saying the automotive unions have not assisted in the demise of competitive levels... from a cost perspective...
    There role has been similar to those at Detroit. In easy profit days they had negotiated not just salaries but pension rights, hours of work and and other adverse costs that were allowed because they were either affordable or to be paid for by the children. It reflected right through society and the main reason now for the high on costs is the cost of an overblown public service, wasting productive skills on jobs that do not need to be done in an ordered society with some rethinking of process and cost/benefit. It's the public service unions who are the challenge for the government as it is they that have to take the tough decisions. Jobs in the private sector need capital and the entreprises can deploy their capital here they need to for best results. The government doesn't have to share their hard decisions, it can't force capital deployment.
    Any government with nearly half the working voters employed in the public service has a challenge to stay in power long enough to the costs and see the redeployed skills created real wealth for the community and not consuming it.

    As the problems in varying degrees exist right across Europe, it is not going to be a growth market for some years, by which time personal transport may have changed a grat deal in family priorities. As of this decade the auto markets lie in growing economies with large numbers of first time buyers. Their economies are growing because, as of now, their living standards are lower and social costs minimal. The price expectation for autos and other manufactured goods are geared around the cost structures of their own employment. So they will buy from their own factories or their peers and not from costly Europe. Recognising that, PSA and Renault are shifting their manufacturing investment and car design to where it can sell cars. Renault have perhaps been smarter and got there earlier. PSA is over-dependent on Europe which can't develop the cash flows needed to finance those offshore growth strategies. That is the challenge.
    In the car market segment which buys a luxury show-off product high price carries more status than a low one, so the German luxury builders can export effectively even to poor African countries. The French chose to be in the mass market after their successes in restocking their car pool after the war and now they are forced to carry that expertise overseas.

    The newspapers sell on sensation and I doubt that Australia is hearing much about the real European crisis, which is the crisis of several hundred million families discovering the falling value of their work capability and the growing restrictions on their capability to consume.
    Then there is the political crisis in all the heavily indebted countries where a sensible government has to take harsh action against its voters and risk being voted out in favour of the extermists of the Right or Left, or be weak and allow the extremist elements to walk in when social morale falls even lower. The spectres of Stalin and Hitler still haunt us, we still have communist and fascist political parties playing on public ignorance and prejudice.
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    Fellow Frogger! le frogg 205's Avatar
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    if you can build a td2000 with your eyes closed, then maybe your on the wrong forum? why are you being such a child. were you never told that if you have nothing constructive to say dont say it? it really irritates me that you can come up with such rude and offencive remarks based on a guess. ( that the european car market has the same problems )

    THAT IS ALL.....

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    The most difficult thing ever assembled at Heidelberg was the Citroen. Two cars in three days. On dollies towed around the factory. The old workers were still in awe of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Hall View Post
    The most difficult thing ever assembled at Heidelberg was the Citroen. Two cars in three days. On dollies towed around the factory. The old workers were still in awe of them.
    And the Aussie ID was pretty much the simplest, most bare-bones version of a DS ever made. Imagine if they had tried to make a DS19 with hydraulic everything, or a DS23 Pallas with electronic fuel injection and air-conditioning.

    This could become yet another reason why Dees are the only car about which I am a car enthusiast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dino View Post
    ... seriously, how many here think a plumber is worth 200K a year...

    dino
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    There role has been similar to those at Detroit. ......... .
    without disagreeing with a single word in your post, i would add that the US auto unions, when faced with the annihilation of their employers, accepted large cuts in pay and entitlements, but my impression is that the french counterparts would never accept that, even to avoid the closure of the company.

    a flexible exchange rate relevant to the social and economic characteristics of national economies would hurt either, but if that is ever seen again, it will only be in the midst of a pan european catastrophe, bigger than the one which has been engineered thus far.

    i reckon top management at this particular factory might do well to have a secret escape tunnel built for use during the inevitable management imprisonment by disgruntled workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dino View Post
    We as a society need to "recognize" and reward quality work... not just the "job" but the qualifications needed to obtain it... seriously, how many here think a plumber is worth 200K a year... if you do then yes you probably have trouble tying your shoelaces... I m simply not interested in the opinion of those who do not know how to check the oil level in their car...

    FWIW, I am a labor man... I just can not stand incompetency...



    dino
    the plumber is such a badly chosen example. i doubt many plumbers are clearing $200k a year; that sounds like one of those Things People Say. it is, however, a vocation anyone can take up, and its price is therefore set by a free market of buyers and sellers of these services. so the question of what you or think plumbing is "worth" is quite irrelevant. if you think it way overpaid, then become a plumber

    you can just cycle to tafe for the next 6 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by le frogg 205 View Post
    if you can build a td2000 with your eyes closed, then maybe your on the wrong forum? why are you being such a child. were you never told that if you have nothing constructive to say dont say it? it really irritates me that you can come up with such rude and offencive remarks based on a guess. ( that the european car market has the same problems )

    THAT IS ALL.....

    You are right I suppose... I can be a bit of a pr#ck sometimes... i was harsh. I just hate how "we" are losing so much of our manufacturing to others... I think the various unions are to blame to a certain extent. Sure, they have fought for many "rights" that workers deserve... I just think they are sometimes not "sensitive" to economic environment (fluidity and dynamics) and their work is sometimes counterproductive to long term survival of established companies... we all want to maximize our profits and earning power but there are times when workers need to work with management to protect the industry and its survival... Greed that ultimately "kills" a company isn't a favourable outcome... I could cite many examples where non competitive wage demands have shut operations in this country...
    The German thing was a "below the belt" swipe... but dont take it to seriously... like I said I can be a bit of a pr#ck sometimes...
    Gerry, thanks for your, as usual, educated insight...

    dino


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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dino View Post
    I ve done it before... I could do the job with my eyes closed... any time, any place... A private enterprise that made replica td2000 was way harder... each car was made on a single non moving platform... assembly was a perfect "dance" that demonstrated complete focus and coordination... most production workers would fall over themselves in such an environment...



    dino

    Gerry, r u saying the automotive unions have not assisted in the demise of competitive levels... from a cost perspective...
    I'd really like to have seen you getting 36 trucks a day out of the International plant at Dandenong on your own. I did and I only needed 1300 others to help me! The Dandenong City Council is an brilliant indicator of what Councils think of their ratepayers: they started buying pissy little Japanese trucks at the expense of the local product which was manufactured in their own back yard. The Jap trucks lasted a few years, Inters lasted a few decades.......
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I'd really like to have seen you getting 36 trucks a day out of the International plant at Dandenong on your own. I did and I only needed 1300 others to help me! The Dandenong City Council is an brilliant indicator of what Councils think of their ratepayers: they started buying pissy little Japanese trucks at the expense of the local product which was manufactured in their own back yard. The Jap trucks lasted a few years, Inters lasted a few decades.......
    Crikey Kim, you are telling tales now.

    The 1950s housing commission developments in Dandenong and 10 quid poms on boats, many employed as the workforce for International!

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Crikey Kim, you are telling tales now.

    The 1950s housing commission developments in Dandenong and 10 quid poms on boats, many employed as the workforce for International!
    How did you know I was a Ten Pound Pom?

    Must be the chain marks!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Crikey Kim, you are telling tales now.

    The 1950s housing commission developments in Dandenong and 10 quid poms on boats, many employed as the workforce for International!
    Along with SA Rubber, Heinz, GMH and Frigidaire, all within 1.5Km. Nearly 6000 workers on Princes Highway, between Cranbourne Rd and Hallam. Hardly any, now.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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