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    IWS
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    Default Scam?

    I am trying to sell a 1973 Alfa Romeo Spider on behalf of a (sick) friend. (Ad elsewhere in the Forum if you are interested )

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    Today I listed it on drive.com.au

    Quite quickly I got an email with an apparent inquiry after the car.

    Text of the inquiry was:

    "I have the following questions I would like answered. Remember my details very interested in the car, if we could arrange a time to view that would be great."

    Maybe I am overly suspicious ... but this sounds a little dodgy to me. Iíve sent an email inviting further questions (I'd expect someone asking after an old Alfa to have a few questions ...) and will proceed carefully.

    Anyone had this kind of "query" in response to a drive.com.au ad?
    Interested in other's thoughts and interpretations of this apparent inquiry.

    Ian.

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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    If they offer to pay with Paypal and are traveling/working overseas and are sending friend/agent to pick it up, run.

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    Tell them that they can view the car... but its on an oil rig (this is where you work) as you can not be separated from it... this way when they tell you that they work on an oil rig you can yell out: "what a coincidence"....




    dino
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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Oil rig? I thought they were working on a merchant ship? They keep changing the version.

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    Well they have to get to and from the oil rig somehow and the helicopter, like the phone service, is not all that reliable.
    Craig K
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIVEDOOR View Post
    If they offer to pay with Paypal and are traveling/working overseas and are sending friend/agent to pick it up, run.
    what's wrong with PayPal?

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IWS View Post
    I am trying to sell a 1973 Alfa Romeo Spider on behalf of a (sick) friend. (Ad elsewhere in the Forum if you are interested )

    Today I listed it on drive.com.au

    Quite quickly I got an email with an apparent inquiry after the car.

    Text of the inquiry was:

    "I have the following questions I would like answered. Remember my details very interested in the car, if we could arrange a time to view that would be great."

    Maybe I am overly suspicious ... but this sounds a little dodgy to me. Iíve sent an email inviting further questions (I'd expect someone asking after an old Alfa to have a few questions ...) and will proceed carefully.

    Anyone had this kind of "query" in response to a drive.com.au ad?
    Interested in other's thoughts and interpretations of this apparent inquiry.

    Ian.
    What were the questions?
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    IWS: yes, it is a scam in the sense of not being a genuine enquiry. i found that when i advertised a couple of things on Gumtree, i got a whole string of these sorts of sms, apparently from US phone numbers. i asked here, but noone could actually say what it would lead to, but they were not legit. just ignore them. or sms back and suggest they call.

    4cvg: paypal is great for buyers, but risky for sellers as paypal can simply debit the payment back out of your bank account if the buyer complains about the transaction. it obviously works for large scale commercial sellers of new products, but it seems that it would not be a good idea to accept paypal for a car sale. folding notes, or bank cheque remain the safe options.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    IWS: yes, it is a scam in the sense of not being a genuine enquiry. i found that when i advertised a couple of things on Gumtree, i got a whole string of these sorts of sms, apparently from US phone numbers. i asked here, but noone could actually say what it would lead to, but they were not legit. just ignore them. or sms back and suggest they call.

    4cvg: paypal is great for buyers, but risky for sellers as paypal can simply debit the payment back out of your bank account if the buyer complains about the transaction. it obviously works for large scale commercial sellers of new products, but it seems that it would not be a good idea to accept paypal for a car sale. folding notes, or bank cheque remain the safe options.
    One of my friend's was scammed was a bank cheque.

    The purchaser collected the goods, handed the seller the the BC and departed.

    Subsequently the purchaser (or a someone purporting to be the owner of the BC) contacted the bank and said the BC had been lost.

    The BC was not honored.

    I accept cash notes only!

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    thank rob; i couldnt remember what circumstance you had mentioned previously. to put a fine point on it, was it the case that the cheque had been banked, then the account debited, or that it was dishonoured ie never paid into the account in the first place?

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    IWS
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    Thanks Alexander. You confirm my impression that this is a - rather odd - scam of sorts (or at the least a non-genuine query). My guess is that if one engaged with the inquiry it *might* lead eventually to a proposition that the car be collected by an "agent" and then "paid" for later by PayPal or WesternUnion. No way I'd have gone done that kind of path - but an interesting example of the kind of scam approaches that are out there. So, keep on being wary is (sadly) the message.

    And schlitzaugen - there were no real questions, that was part of what puzzled me. The email from the apparent inquirer said just this, and only this

    "I have the following questions I would like answered. Remember my details very interested in the car, if we could arrange a time to view that would be great."

    Odd wording and none of the kind of questions one would have expected from a person interested in a classic sports car.

    So, bottom line - keep being wary of scammers. My scam radar seemed to be working OK this time. Wish I could say the same for the time that I was scammed by a "Tea Ceremony" on my first visit to China. Sigh ... Still, I learned from that experience.

    ian.
    Last edited by IWS; 19th June 2012 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Minor wording edit - correction

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    Fellow Frogger!
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    I had a car on gumtree and had a few requests from oil rigs and one from Malaysia. Western Union was on one of them so lots of scammers out there.

    I have just offloaded a Honda Accord for a friend. What a nightmare that was. Lots of inquiries, most by text message and wanting to agree on a price before they inspected the car or the offers were just ridiculous. in the end, I only had 4 people turn up to look at it with the last person buying it.

    Be ever wary when dealing with people as unfortunately society's standards aren't what they used to be.

    Regards
    Andrew

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    thank rob; i couldnt remember what circumstance you had mentioned previously. to put a fine point on it, was it the case that the cheque had been banked, then the account debited, or that it was dishonoured ie never paid into the account in the first place?
    I can't remember for sure the exact circumstances and I can't find out because the person concerned is pushing up daisies.

    I vaguely recall presenting the check to cash it and it was refused.
    The purchaser was contacted by the seller and he claimed the vehicle had defects and wasn't as advertised or inspected and didn't want to pay the full price.

    I think agreement was reached at a lower price??

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    bank cheque remain the safe options.
    Be wary of bank cheques, I have heard of 2 seperate people in different parts of Melb being scammed by bank cheques!
    1 was a genuine bank cheque that was modified to read $25k (from $2.50 - why the banks are writing cheques for $2.50 is beyond me!!!) the other was a computer generated bank cheque....

    Quote Originally Posted by IWS View Post
    "I have the following questions I would like answered. Remember my details very interested in the car, if we could arrange a time to view that would be great."
    ian.
    who knew people in Nairobi could sms us here as well!

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    What NAB say about BC.

    I would think other Oz banks are similar.


    Bank cheques

    Personal/Help and guidance/Your guide to banking at NAB/Bank cheques
    The term 'bank cheque' describes a cheque that is issued by a bank. Bank cheques are generally treated by the law in the same manner as ordinary cheques. Although some people regard bank cheques as equivalent to cash, there are certain circumstances where a bank cheque may not be paid.

    To clarify the position, NAB, as a member of the Australian Bankers' Association, adopts the following policy in relation to NAB bank cheques.


    Forged or unauthorised

    If the signature of an officer of NAB is forged or placed on a bank cheque without NAB's authority, NAB is not legally liable for the cheque concerned.

    Materially altered

    NAB will dishonour a bank cheque that has been fraudulently and materially altered. NAB will co-operate with any holder of a cheque, or person who is about to receive it, who may want to verify that the cheque is a valid cheque.

    Reported stolen or lost

    If NAB is told that a bank cheque is stolen or lost and is satisfied that this is the case, NAB will not pay the cheque if it is presented for payment by a person who has no right to it. NAB may provide a replacement cheque for a fee.

    Court order restraining payment

    NAB must observe an order of a court restraining NAB from paying a bank cheque which is presented for payment while the order is in force.

    Failure of consideration for the issue of a bank cheque

    Where NAB has not received payment for issuing a bank cheque to a customer (e.g. your cheque to NAB in payment for the bank cheque is dishonoured), NAB may refuse to pay the bank cheque only if the person presenting the bank cheque for payment: has not given value for it (e.g. the bank cheque is stolen); or has given value for it but at the time of doing so he or she knew NAB had not been paid for the cheque (e.g. that the cheque in favour of NAB had been dishonoured).

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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    what's wrong with PayPal?
    Paypal is ok if you understand it.

    One part of many scam is that they pay with Paypal via stolen credit card. The funds are transferred to you Paypal account, they collect the goods and few days later Paypal withdraw the funds. You need to understand Paypal rules to know how long you need "clear" the funds properly so you dont get stung.

    Sometimes they even overpay and ask for a cash refund for adjustment to really rub it in

    Just be careful

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    What NAB say about BC.

    I would think other Oz banks are similar.


    Bank cheques

    Reported stolen or lost

    If NAB is told that a bank cheque is stolen or lost and is satisfied that this is the case, NAB will not pay the cheque if it is presented for payment by a person who has no right to it. NAB may provide a replacement cheque for a fee..
    thanks rob, but i note that on NABs wording, they would only dishonour a BC if a/ it has been reported lost or stolen (ie by the person who paid for it in our scenario), AND b/ it is presented by a person who has no right to it. if you presented a BC with your name printed on it, how did the bank dishonour it anyway given that you indeed a person with a right to it?
    Last edited by alexander; 23rd June 2012 at 08:39 PM.

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    (Assuming I have read the bank information correctly) If you pay with a bank cheque, then report it stolen, you don't get your money back. That makes falsely declaring a BC as lost/stolen a pretty expensive way to scam someone. If the valid recipient presents the cheque, then it seems to me that the person reporting it lost/stolen would also expose themselves to risk of prosecution for the false report.

    If bank cheques don't guarantee payment, what purpose do they serve?
    I don't like the idea of having to carry around $10k in cash to buy a car.

    The following bit fascinates me, because I thought you needed clear funds to draw a BC. If you pay a normal cheque into your account, you can't use that money until it's cleared. So why would a bank issue a BC against a cheque that hadn't cleared?

    Is there an Aussiefrogger banker who can clarify this?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    What NAB say about BC.

    I would think other Oz banks are similar.

    Bank cheques

    [snip]

    Failure of consideration for the issue of a bank cheque

    Where NAB has not received payment for issuing a bank cheque to a customer (e.g. your cheque to NAB in payment for the bank cheque is dishonoured), NAB may refuse to pay the bank cheque only if the person presenting the bank cheque for payment: has not given value for it (e.g. the bank cheque is stolen); or has given value for it but at the time of doing so he or she knew NAB had not been paid for the cheque (e.g. that the cheque in favour of NAB had been dishonoured).

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    yes i was pondering that too. i read it is covering a possible situation in which a bank cheque may not be paid to the holder, even though in real life i would think it highly unlikely a bank would actually issue a BC without folding money or cleared funds.

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    my wife who works for a bank said that banks will only accept personal cheques from accounts held at that bank in exhange for bank cheques, so the bank will know instantly if there is funds to cover it

    i am surprised about the purchaser escaping by claiming the cheque to be "lost"

    if the seller turned up at the bank with the "lost" cheque would that mean the cheque wasnt lost ?

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    Default BC issues

    Quote Originally Posted by IWS View Post
    I am trying to sell a 1973 Alfa Romeo Spider on behalf of a (sick) friend. (Ad elsewhere in the Forum if you are interested )

    Today I listed it on drive.com.au

    Quite quickly I got an email with an apparent inquiry after the car.

    Text of the inquiry was:

    "I have the following questions I would like answered. Remember my details very interested in the car, if we could arrange a time to view that would be great."

    Maybe I am overly suspicious ... but this sounds a little dodgy to me. Iíve sent an email inviting further questions (I'd expect someone asking after an old Alfa to have a few questions ...) and will proceed carefully.

    Anyone had this kind of "query" in response to a drive.com.au ad?
    Interested in other's thoughts and interpretations of this apparent inquiry.

    Ian.
    What happened to:

    "You can't have the gear until the cheque is cleared"
    wouldn't that sort out the issue?

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Some years ago I was involved in a case in which a company was bought as required by the vendors with a bank cheque issued by an Australian bank The cheque was bought with a company cheque on an account with an Australian bank in NZ. The transaction was completed and then it flowed through the system that the NZ account did not have the funds to meet the cheque. The Australian bank then attempted to cancelled their bank cheque. We went to legals and the bank lost on the grounds that it should have checked that the NZ cheque was cleared before issuing its cheque.

    This was a pivotal case that woke everyone up in the banking scene and since then the banks are much more cautious in issuing their bank cheques. One of the things that the crooks take advantage of, is the general reluctance of the public to contest bank decisions. If the bank does get cheated its first move is generally to pass the loss on to others and whereas sometimes they may be proved wrong in law, the cost of litigation and the experience needed means that they may not be tested.

    Much as we try to have effective customer protection legislation, caveat emptor applies to both buyer and seller in these remote Internet transactions. The bank cheque and money wiring frauds are made even easier to implement by the crossing of national jurisdictions.

    It has got so bad here in France that my efforts to help Australian buyers on leboncoin and ebay have had little success as there is no trust left in foreign purchasers in what are seen as exotic countries.
    Personally, I would not buy anything now (other than from a known professional supplier) for over 1000 dollars without meeting the vendor and inspecting the purchase and selling likewise.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 29th June 2012 at 05:37 AM.
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    Default Possibly kosher...

    Workmate has a fairly expensive piece of furniture for sale, Redgum buffet. Say $6500 new, $4500 for you. New house it's slightly too big and not in keeping with the decor.
    Get a text from a female marine engineer who doesn't have computer access to a bank account but only paypal. Gift for her father and has "an agent" to pick up.
    The dead give away is the "it's so easy to set up a pay-pal account."
    My advice to him is say, " Because of the value the fee's are going to be excessive will only except a bank transfer with clearance confirmation."
    Funny the e-mails via SMS have been odd/strange and losing interest...On behalf of my friend I thank Aussie Frogs for this information.
    Brendan

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    Its all variations. I recall investigating a case shortly after becoming a CIB detective in which the ANZ paid out on a $30,000 cheque that turned out to be stolen the intermediary that cashed the cheque for the crooks was jailed for 6 months, but the civil case dragged on for two more years.

    M.O. was a gang of Melbourne thieves that would intercept mail sacks that were put out for collection and they then went through the cheques and picked ones that could be altered to insert large amounts.

    What amazed me was the scruffy appearance of the person paid to present the forged cheque. I think part of the success was the large amount, most City banks at the time would quibble over cashing small cheques, but the larger ones didn't cause any alarm.

    Standing joke among the detectives was how "we" would be put through the wringer by our banks if we would try something like that!! Another crook used up his small cheque book so fast writing crook cheques, his bank issued him with one of those extra large ones (three cheques to a page). The bank clerks answer after we caught the guy was they could not refuse to issue him that book if he "asked" for it!

    Glad they have tightened up, but it's just variations of old themes regurgitated - greed and circumstance tied to opportunity.

    Internet only makes it harder to catch the crooks..

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    ...It has got so bad here in France that my efforts to help Australian buyers on leboncoin and ebay have had little success as there is no trust left in foreign purchasers in what are seen as exotic countries.
    That echoes my "strike rate". I eventually conscripted a young Irish bloke with a BA in French to do my negotiating. Hopefully, I'll never need to deal with people like Sylvain Lambert anyhow...

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