P-plate test-drive crash
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  1. #1
    XTC
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    Icon13 P-plate test-drive crash

    Now you can point a lot of fingers here, should the dealer have gone with them? Can P-Platers take cars for test drives? Who is responsible? Well ultimately the driver ... he had a licence, he was over 18 and in the eyes of the law (for voting, criminal acts, buying alcohol) he is an adult.

    Awful for the families involved - but it highlights that driving a car is a massive responsibility and even many "adults" are not ready for it.

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    http://www.thewest.com.au/20031031/n...sto115030.html

    Two die in P-plate test-drive crash

    By Luke Eliot

    A TEST drive in a P-plate driver's dream car turned into a nightmare yesterday when the 18-year-old driver and his 15-year-old passenger were killed in a horror smash near Rockingham.

    Police said it appeared the 18-year-old driver of the Ford XR6 sports car lost control on a bend on Day Road.

    The car slid sideways into the path of an oncoming truck. Police said the 18-year-old had his P-plates on and had been interested in buying the car from a local car yard for some time.

    The 15-year-old passenger, who is related to the driver, was a student at a local high school.

    Early indications suggested speed and wet roads caused by rain yesterday morning may have contributed to the crash, but inquiries were continuing.

    Fremantle traffic Sgt Peter Janczyk urged motorists in powerful cars to be particularly careful.

    Firefighters and St John Ambulance officers also were called to the scene and police closed the road for several hours. Major crash police were investigating.

    The truck driver escaped without injury.

    Motor Trade Association director Peter Fitzpatrick said most dealers in WA would send a representative of the car yard to supervise test drives for insurance purposes.

    Mr Fitzpatrick said yesterday's double fatality was highly unusual because the prospective buyer had taken the car for a test drive without supervision.

    "In almost every case the salesperson would supervise and be responsible for the test drive of a vehicle," Mr Fitzpatrick said.

    Firefighters had to cut a man out from a three-car and truck pile-up on Gnangara Road in Landsdale yesterday afternoon.

    The man was taken to Joondalup Hospital in a serious condition. Another man and woman, who had injuries to their lower bodies, also were taken to hospital.

    Traffic was backed up for hours and emergency services had trouble leaving the scene, near the intersection of Alexander Drive and Gnangara Road, because of heavy traffic.

    Advertisement


    So far this month, 13 people have died on WA roads, including four deaths on metropolitan roads. The double fatality takes the State road toll to 163 - one fewer than the same time last year.

    Of the 163 road deaths this year, 75 were killed on metropolitan roads compared with 59 last year.

    WA Road Safety Council chairman Grant Dorrington said October and November were traditionally bad months for road deaths on WA roads. He said the community had to work harder to cut the number of young people dying in road accidents.
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    that just emphasises my point that provisional license holders should be restricted to a certain size or power output of car
    a powerful car in inexperienced hands results time and time again in a fatal accident
    also my other idea of limiting passenger numbers for provisional drivers as well which once again has shown that peer pressure can also result in a fatality
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Pretty flash metric conversion...

    From the newspaper story
    "The driver and one woman were already out of the car but people were screaming that there was still someone trapped," Mr Walker said. "By then, the flames off the car were 10 foot (30m) in the air and it was on the verge of exploding."
    As always, metro street racing is playing havoc with the prospects of motoring laws ever becoming reasonable...

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    On a semi-related note, I went to test drive an Astra on the weekend and the sales-chickie handed me the keys and muttered those magic words......"We close at five"

    I was quite stoked!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    that just emphasises my point that provisional license holders should be restricted to a certain size or power output of car
    a powerful car in inexperienced hands results time and time again in a fatal accident
    In Victoria P-platers are restricted to 125kW/1000kg. How well enforced it is, is another question. Bear in mind, that's quite a generous power/weight ratio.

    There are exemptions, for example if you use the vehicle for work, if it happens to be the only car your family owns, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    On a semi-related note, I went to test drive an Astra on the weekend and the sales-chickie handed me the keys and muttered those magic words......"We close at five"

    I was quite stoked!
    I'd imagine that car would be quite well run in now...

    SRI Turbo I'm guessing - what did you think?
    I think it's about time you try an ugly dash Focus

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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    In Victoria P-platers are restricted to 125kW/1000kg. How well enforced it is, is another question. Bear in mind, that's quite a generous power/weight ratio.

    There are exemptions, for example if you use the vehicle for work, if it happens to be the only car your family owns, etc.
    whats the power to weight of say a new SS commode ?

    that 125kw/1000kg is pretty high for inexperienced drivers IMHO

    i could say that the GTi-6 is too much car for a newly adorned P plater
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    In Vic, P platers are restricted to 125kw/1000kg, as Justin said, or 3.5 litres/1000kg.
    I found it quite amusing that I was allowed to drive a BMW 750iL, an early Impreza WRX, a VL Commodore Turbo and a Supercharged VT Commodore S on P's.... but would be against the law for me to pilot a Jaguar XJS (believe me, it's no slingshot at legal speeds) or a 4.1 litre Ford Cortina (then again, not such a bad thing.....).
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    SS is 245/1.658= 147.77kw/tonne.

    Not allowed.

    The thing is, a law is only as good as it is enforced.

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    Holden claims that Ford is underselling the power figure of the 4.0 DOHC 6 in the BA Falcon. Holden reckons it's more like 195 Kw and that this makes a base model Falcon undrivable by P-Plates. Ford issued a big "No Comment"

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    Yeppo!

    It wasn't bad. Whilst it didn't make huge impressions on a test drive, it would be a perfect car for me to own....I think.....I hope.

    I find it difficult to judge a car on a test drive on unfamiliar roads and conditions. Too much of the drive is consumed just fanging it (because you can) and not looking at other things.

    It didn't feel as quick as I expected, but maybe my expectations were high. Everything else is perfect. Driving position, interior etc....all very good. Steering response is great....it's a fun car to punt hard. Great compromise between comfortable daily driver, which it would be for 99% of the time, and hot hatch.

    I'd have to take that rear spoiler off though, actually the whole car looks a bit showy.

    $40500 on road is high though. The car is worth that, but I don't want to spend that amount on a car that has unknown resale value. A demonstrator at 32.9K is something to think about. See what I mean about resale?

    Apparently there will be no '04 builds of the SRiT so whatever arrives in the next few months is it.

    The Focus is.....well.....can I say I hate it? Keen to see how the new Focus turns out though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno
    Holden claims that Ford is underselling the power figure of the 4.0 DOHC 6 in the BA Falcon. Holden reckons it's more like 195 Kw and that this makes a base model Falcon undrivable by P-Plates. Ford issued a big "No Comment"
    The same could be said of the Commodore's supercharged V6. Bullcrap it makes 170kw! Ever driven one of those things?? From personal experience it absolutely whips the old cast iron Holden V8 and any Ford V8, and a 750iL driver has to be on his toes to keep one at bay. Strange how the Buick versions of the same engines in the States make close to 190kw.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno
    Holden claims that Ford is underselling the power figure of the 4.0 DOHC 6 in the BA Falcon. Holden reckons it's more like 195 Kw
    Yeah, the official 182kW is only 45.5kW per litre, which is pretty low for a multi-valve DOHC variable cam timing EFI engine.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they actually produced 50kW per litre (200kW), because that's still not that high considering the head design. There seems to be room for improvement in the exhaust manifold, so maybe that's what restricts it to below 200kW. With decent 6-2-1 extractors as well as variable valve overlap (as opposed to the simple variable cam advance they use now) they should be able to produce well over 200kW and get alot better part throttle fuel economy aswell (i.e. I wouldn't be surprised if they make these exact modifications to the next model Falcon, if only for fuel economy reasons).

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    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    Yeppo!

    It wasn't bad. Whilst it didn't make huge impressions on a test drive, it would be a perfect car for me to own....I think.....I hope.
    Be carefuly saying that round here

    Gee, all these Pug drivers up in SYD going Holden.

    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    I find it difficult to judge a car on a test drive on unfamiliar roads and conditions. Too much of the drive is consumed just fanging it (because you can) and not looking at other things.
    That's true if you are just taking the car out for a quick spin. If you can have the car over a weekend, over night or even just for a day (eg. dealer loan car) you can get a pretty good feel though.

    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    I'd have to take that rear spoiler off though, actually the whole car looks a bit showy.
    Do they come in white?

    [QUOTE=macquered]$40500 on road is high though. The car is worth that, but I don't want to spend that amount on a car that has unknown resale value. A demonstrator at 32.9K is something to think about. See what I mean about resale?/QUOTE]

    Any difference between MEL & SYD prices?

    Renault pricing here is better due to more competition, but up in SYD I'd imagine it'd be much of a muchness for Holdens.

    Quote Originally Posted by macquered
    The Focus is.....well.....can I say I hate it? Keen to see how the new Focus turns out though.
    Well, your favourite, the...

    Focus I Interior


    ...has become

    The Focus II Interior


    A bit better, eh?

    Bear in mind, this is from the C-Max, so I don't think you'll see see the gearstick in that position in the hatches (which I think look a bit conservative by Focus standards). It could almost come out of a VW!

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    Yes that is heaps better.

    The main difference between the Focus and Astra in Australia, as far as I can see, is that the Astra could quite comfortably be sold for a few more years, whereas the Focus felt aged when it arrived.

    I was surprised though, to learn that the Focus outsells the 307. Didn't expect that. Even the Golf does. Hrm.

    Nope - the SRiT doesn't come in white. Just that horrid blue that seems fashionable at the moment, silver and black. Silver is the right colour for the Astra.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307

    Focus I Interior


    ...has become

    The Focus II Interior


    A bit better, eh?

    Bear in mind, this is from the C-Max, so I don't think you'll see see the gearstick in that position in the hatches (which I think look a bit conservative by Focus standards). It could almost come out of a VW!
    that first one looks like a very busy interior
    i'd get very bored of that very quick
    the 2nd one isn't too bad but still a major improvement from the 1st one
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    The 307 has been pretty close to the Golf though, bear in mind Peugeot doesn't have the same image as VW. For a long time, they were hamstrung by supply, but they better watch out with the Golf V arriving. The gap between Passat & 406 is much larger. In Melbourne's chic inner cafe suburbs such as South Yarra, it seems the silver Golf is the car to have (well, if you can't afford a 3 Series )

    The Focus sells almost 3x the amount of cars as Golf or 307, hardly surprising given it is from a volume manufacturer and has lower pricing points. The Corolla is the king of the segment though.

    The dash design counts against Focus, I don't think the exterior does. I think it looks fresher outside than the Astra. The Focus has a roomier interior (Astra's pretty hopeless in the rear IMHO), especially in the rear.

    The thing is, I think the Astra's advantages over the Focus are the ones that push the right buttons on buyers. Namely pricing & engine performance. I did drive a base Focus recently and whilst the engine is much better than the first cars, the Astra does have the better unit under the bonnet. You do feel the difference quickly. The Astra is better priced too.

    I do suspect for the majority of people that buy these types of cars, there are more important things than handling, which is the Focus' main advantage (it rides better too). I suspect most people aren't that fussed by handling, just look at the number of boring cars out there - a lot of people just don't push their cars enough to notice. Some would rather have light & easy steering over weightier, more communicative steering. The Astra's handling is reasonable anyway. I would bet that Australian customers value the Astra's better performance more than the Focus' superior handling. Australia is one of the few markets in which the Astra outsells the Focus.

    Wonder if Focus sales improve over summer, because I have to say the aircon in the Astra is really hopeless

    I hope they get the Fiesta right. Ford hasn't had an admirable record with bringing out its own product from overseas - Mondeo, Taurus, ugh. The former is a great car in its current guise, even comes with seat ventilation fans now! Gee you can tell it's warm in Melbourne today

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    that first one looks like a very busy interior
    i'd get very bored of that very quick
    the 2nd one isn't too bad but still a major improvement from the 1st one
    I think the interior was a bit wacky for the times and its time has passed, but the car is well packaged.

    Bear in mind the second interior is for the Focus C-Max, Ford's answer to the Renault Scenic, so the standard Focus hatches will have a different dash. One thing's for sure, I do suspect it'll be in the same classy style as the C-Max. Ford's advertising in the UK for the C-Max has focused heavily on quality and a lack of rattles - the tag line is "Beautifully Built".

    Code:
    	<EMBED src="http://www.ford-info.co.uk/fordfocuscmax/ukmicrosite/loader.swf " quality=high bgcolor=#FFFFFF  WIDTH="540" 
    HEIGHT="540" NAME="loader" ALIGN="" TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash"

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    Default Unfortunate deaths

    Guys, side-stepping the focus interiors for a second - and back on topic, I'm not sure that 125kg/1000kg for P-platers is the real answer - my original 97 WRX had 155kw & 1275kg so it would pass and that car was a pretty quick weapon - 13.6sec 1/4 mile in standard form.

    As per my post a few months ago, my daughter's best friend was killed in a standard toyota on a normal double-lane road on a very slight bend in good conditions. Looking at the accident site, the all too common tell-tale double black marks where brakes were applied and locked up which continued for metre after metre of locked-up understeer, all the way until the tree.

    I don't for one minute believe it's the only answer but I have to say again that proper driver training AND education, combined with better safe outlets (eg managed drag nights and events) for the testerone-impaired is crucial if we're going to save our young kids from killing themselves and others.

    Anyway, just my 2 cents and I'm working hard personally to make this happen in WA at least.

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  20. #20
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    Being a P plater I guess I can comment on this.

    When searching for my first car my dad played an active role in selecting it. I was rather keen on an early 80s BMW 3 series. Dad went and drove some and concluded they were far too tail happy for an inexperienced driver like me. I was quite keen to get the 505. I wanted one because it only had 70kw. I knew that I liked to go fast, so why not get a car that will stop me doing that until I get over those 'new driver' urges . Some of my friends feel the need to do nearly double the speed limit for thrills, however in my old pug all I need to do is make it up to 100km/h on a freeway on ramp or go around a corner at a moderate pace. The high revs needed for the former are fun enough, and the body roll from the later certainly makes it feel like you are really pushing it.

    You have no idea how much it scares me to see P plates fitted to old Falcons, VL turbo Commodores or those japanese imports. Driving an old manual steered RWD pug certainly lets you explore driving techniques without killing yourself.
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    Default test drive

    this subject is a real hard one bcoz the whole thing is that u can be a responsible driver no matter wot the car is!!!i was allowed the test drive of my first 205 from a car yard!might i add it was an asian sales guy so it seamed like ne1 was a buyer!which is true but i thought that the whole thing was that they came with u not threw the keys!!!wtf!

    this kid is driving a xr6(turbo???)well if it was thats crazy tell me that every1 that was looking at these kinda cars wouldn't give it a thrashin!!!he just furked up!i used to live in perth and as far as i know any driver any kw/tonne ratio!

    i think that for most people that r gonna be driving a powerfull car they need to know the limits of wot they r drivin!my friend had a golden age datto 1600 that a young p-plater came to take for a test drive!funny enough he rang up on the drive my friend worried about the car furking up on the dude!but to find that the guy had rolled it!

    wot did he say when the question was asked!well i came around the corner and was going a lil fast the back started sliding and then rear wheels where on the gravel!!!b4 he knew it he had flipped over twice and landed on the roof!he hit a drainage pipe!

    bloody ******s bcoz when ur taking some1 elses car for a test,yes u need to see how it goes but within ur own driving experience!even know yeah some drivers exel over other but i would think that if a p-plater went into a ford dealer and said"can i test an xr6 turbo"?

    u would hope that they would say NO!!!its funny i say this as one of my friends has just test driven yeap u guessed it an XR6 TURBO!!!they threw him the keys and said"bring it back in one peice"!!!the laws that are in place do suck for the more capable drivers but it is only fair that u can't have a killer kw car and be on ur p's!

    jords
    Last edited by mi205; 23rd November 2003 at 05:22 PM.

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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRX2PUG
    combined with better safe outlets (eg managed drag nights and events) for the testerone-impaired is crucial if we're going to save our young kids from killing themselves and others.
    But the type of people who race on the streets (think rice boys) don't want to do the managed events ... normally cause their cars are often illegal and when put to the test they are basically crap drivers - it's an ego thing, so long as you don't have to prove yourself against the clock, you can brag all you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by WRX2PUG
    Anyway, just my 2 cents and I'm working hard personally to make this happen in WA at least.
    I take my hat off to you Steve ... there is a dedicated group of people trying to help provide safe and fun events - while still being able to explore the limits of your car and driving skills. Keep it up.

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    Update..... a 3 guys, one of whom I know, (non-P platers, but under 25) took a Mazda RX8 for a test drive. Yup, you guessed it. Lost control, went up a kerb and swiped a power pole.

    Well, there's a $2k insurance excess they signed for before taking the keys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jez 405
    Update..... a 3 guys, one of whom I know, (non-P platers, but under 25) took a Mazda RX8 for a test drive. Yup, you guessed it. Lost control, went up a kerb and swiped a power pole.
    And who would want to buy it now ... it's not JUST a demo any more.

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    Very interesting thread - good to see it came back on topic too, unlike the Aussiefrogs 'norm'!

    I agree with you too WRX2PUG - education is the key Now we just need AlanS to see this thread.

    One thing I want to say - I couldn't beleive how many road-side memorials there were in WA. I remember seeing one, a couple of hours south of Perth on the eastern side of the highway that heads to Albany (haven't got my map handy to look up the name) - it had a huge timber board, with photos of all the people killed, and an enormous Ford logo. Flowers at the base of the poles holding the board up etc. There were so many things like that I was just stunned. On my 2000km drive through NSW and Victoria (to Shepparton & Bendigo) recently I saw the odd cross by the road, but nothing like I saw in WA.

    Lastly, mi205, can you please break up your writing into paragraphs and write in English? It's *so* hard to follow a huge solid block of text. -Thanks

    Derek.

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