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  1. #1
    XTC
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    Default Top Gear Survey

    Frog cars cop a pounding .... check out the rankings !
    I guess those that have something to complain about tend to do it more ...

    - XTC206 -

    http://www.topgear.com/content/featu...urvey_2003/01/

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    1: Jaguar XJ Series - 90.9 (Can't get no satisfaction? That'll be because you didn't buy an XJ. Jaguar has beaten off stiff competition from Japan and Germany, and built the most satisfying car to drive without sacrificing one jot of pleasure from the ownership experience. Plus it's looked after by dealers who set the standard for service. A well deserved first place.)
    2: Toyota Yaris - 90.5
    3: Skoda Octavia - 90.4
    4: Lexus IS200 - 90.2
    5: Honda S2000 - 89.8
    6: Mazda MX-5 - 88.9
    7: Toyota Celica (new) - 88.4
    8: BMW Z3 - 88.3
    9: Mazda 323 - 88.1
    10: Subaru Legacy - 88.1

    11: Skoda Fabia - 88.1
    12: Porsche 911 - 88.0
    13: Rover MG ZT - 88.0
    14: Honda HR-V - 88.0
    15: Subaru Impreza (new) - 87.9 (Latest generation Impreza beats its predecessor, thanks to such grown-up factors as a properly built interior)
    16: BMW X5 - 87.7
    17: Subaru Forester - 87.3
    18: Mazda 626 - 87.0
    19: MCC Smart - 86.9
    20: Porsche Boxster - 86.7

    21: Toyota RAV4 (new) - 86.6
    22: Toyota Corolla (pre-Dec 01) - 86.4
    23: BMW 5-Series - 86.4
    24: Honda CR-V - 86.3
    25: Honda Accord - 86.3
    26: Subaru Impreza (pre-Oct 00) - 86.2
    27: Hyundai Coupe (pre-Jan 02) - 85.9
    28: Honda Civic (new) - 85.7
    29: Honda Civic (pre-Dec 00) - 85.5
    30: Jaguar XK8/R - 85.5

    31: BMW 3-Series - 85.5
    32: BMW 3-Series (Compact) - 85.2
    33: Toyota MR2 (new) - 85.0
    34: Mini One/Cooper - 84.7 (You say it's a giggle to drive and cheap to run; but quality is dodgy, with gearbox and electrical dilemmas)
    35: Volvo S60 - 84.5
    36: Saab 9-5 - 84.5
    37: Audi A4 (pre-Jan 01) - 84.4
    38: Audi A6 - 84.3
    39: Skoda Felicia - 84.0
    40: Toyota Avensis - 84.0

    41: Ford Puma - 83.9
    42: Jaguar S-Type - 83.8
    43: Lotus Elise (pre-Dec 01) - 83.8
    44: Audi A4 (new) - 83.8
    45: Seat Toledo - 83.7
    46: Nissan Micra - 83.3
    47: Rover MG ZS - 82.4 (Alongside the ZT, the Rover-45-based ZS is the other above-average MG here. Flimsy but fun, you say)
    48: Rover 75 - 82.2
    49: Ford Cougar - 82.1
    50: Nissan Primera (pre-Feb 02) - 82.0

    51: Ford Focus - 82.0 (More satisfying to own than an Astra or Golf, Britain's best-selling car also betters average on all 10 points)
    52: Audi A3 - 80.2
    53: Seat Leon - 81.8
    54: Volvo V70 - 81.7
    55: Citroen Berlingo - 81.7
    56: Audi TT - 81.6
    57: Mercedes E-Class - 81.6
    58: Hyundai Accent (new) - 81.5
    59: Saab 9-3 - 81.4
    60: Volvo V40 - 81.4

    61: Volvo S80 - 81.0
    62: Chrysler PT Cruiser - 80.9
    63: Seat Arosa - 80.9
    64: Nissan Almera - 80.7
    65: Vauxhall Corsa (new) - 80.5
    66: Daewoo Lanos - 80.4
    67: Daewoo Matiz - 80.3
    68: Chrysler Neon (new) - 80.3
    69: Mitsubishi Galant - 80.3
    70: Mercedes SLK - 80.2 (No mention of the SLK's cunning folding hard-top getting its hydraulics in a twist. Overall, drives well but costs plenty)

    71: Audi A2 - 80.1
    72: Rover 400 - 80.1
    73: Suzuki Grand Vitara - 80.0
    74: Vauxhall Omega - 79.9
    75: Lotus Elise (new) - 79.8
    76: Vauxhall Zafira - 79.8
    77: Merc C-Class (pre-Sept 00) - 79.7
    78: Volkswagen Passat - 79.6
    79: Volkswagen Bora - 79.5
    80: Rover 45 - 79.4

    81: Ford Ka - 79.3
    82: Kia Sedona - 79.1
    83: Volvo C70 - 79.1
    84: Rover 200 - 79.0
    85: Alfa Romeo 166 - 78.9
    86: Mercedes CLK - 78.9
    87: Seat Ibiza - 78.7
    88: Vauxhall Astra - 78.7
    89: Volvo S40 - 78.7
    90: Citroen Xsara - 78.4

    91: Ford Mondeo (new) - 78.3
    92: Ford Fiesta (pre-April 02) - 78.2
    93: Fiat Multipla - 77.9 (Multipla owners couldn't praise their MPV's versatility more highly. Fiat's dealers, they also reveal, are shocking)
    94: Volkswagen Lupo - 77.7
    95: Vauxhall Corsa (pre-Oct 00) - 77.3
    96: Volkswagen Polo (pre-Jan 02) - 77.3
    97: Volkswagen Beetle - 77.0
    98: Land Rover Discovery - 77.0 (Another Land Rover owners aren't happy with. You think it's too costly, too slow, too unreliable and too shoddily built)
    99: Seat Alhambra - 76.7
    100: Renault Laguna (pre-Dec 00) - 76.6

    101: Rover 25 - 76.6 (Time has caught up with the 25 and expectations have moved on. Most people wouldn't consider buying another)
    102: Fiat Marea - 76.6
    103: Rover MG ZR - 76.6
    104: Jaguar X-Type - 76.4
    105: Ford Mondeo (pre-Oct 00) - 76.3
    106: Volkswagen Golf - 76.3
    107: Renault Megane - 76.2
    108: Renault Scenic - 76.0
    109: Fiat Seicento - 76.0
    110: Vauxhall Vectra - 75.9

    111: Renault Clio - 75.8
    112: Alfa Romeo GTV - 75.8
    113: Peugeot 306 - 75.7
    114: Ford Escort - 75.6
    115: Jeep Grand Cherokee - 75.4
    116: Alfa Romeo 147 - 75.1 (Plan on financial strain and electrical mishaps if you fork out for one of these. At least it's quick and enjoyable)
    117: Fiat Brava - 75.0
    118: Peugeot 406 - 74.8
    119: Mitsubishi Carisma - 74.7
    120: Land Rover Defender - 74.5

    121: Peugeot 206 - 74.3
    122: Citroen C5 - 74.1
    123: Rover MGF - 74.0
    124: Peugeot 106 - 73.8
    125: Fiat Bravo - 73.8
    126: Mercedes A-Class - 73.7
    127: Mercedes C-Class (new) - 73.6
    128: Citroen Saxo - 73.2
    129: Ford Galaxy - 73.1
    130: Land Rover Freelander - 73.1

    131: Alfa Romeo 156 - 72.9
    132: Fiat Punto (new) - 72.5
    133: Mercedes M-Class - 69.6
    134: Renault Laguna (new) - 68.9 (Another retrograde Renault. While the latest Laguna may be safe, it's more likely to fall apart than the last one)
    135: Peugeot 307 - 68.7
    136: Renault Espace - 68.2
    137: Volkswagen Sharan - 67.1
    Last edited by XTC206; 18th November 2003 at 03:59 PM.
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

  2. #2
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    Darn, I thought we had this well hidden away on the 307 list

    Seriously though, I think Peugeot have hopeless customer relations in the UK and that definately would have influenced their pathetic performance there. The marques that take care of their customers did perform well - it's all about satisfaction.

    Fortunately I have a good dealer

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  3. #3
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    and the 306 is where on the list compared to the 307

    not happy where the pugs are but glad the 306 is up the list a little bit further
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    I like what JC has to say about the 307 CC;

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...894251,00.html

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Gee....things have changed for Jag eh?

    How on earth did an XJ reach the top of this list?

    Is it satisfaction rating vs expectation? (jag vastly exceeding owner expectation of being shite in reliability/service/resale/etc)

    Maybe it's a lil of the english "land rover" is the best car ever made thang again?

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    Fellow Frogger!
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    Interesting results...

    So by the look of it Skoda would be a very satisfying make then??

    I have also read a few stories for Clio from the "Duffer's page", the car's build quality and reliability aside, there are extreme ends of customer service. There is a case where dealer refuse to investigate a smell because they cannot afford a qualified mechanic, and in another case Renault spent more then 11,000 pounds (3 new engines and 4 gearboxes) when the car only cost 8,500 pounds, and another where a new car was offered for only 1,000 pounds.

    Don't how things are in the UK, but in some cases the effort to satisfy the customer sounds good to me...

    Lucky I have a good dealer too...

    ps. Isn't Cit/Pug/Reno some of the top selling cars of its class in Europe?? Outselling Corolla in some cases? Can't be that bad if it's selling that good..?

  7. #7
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    Gee, Clarkson managed to start talking about the car after only 14 paragraphs! The 307CC is exactly the reason why Peugeot needs to rediscover turbocharging, putting in some 2.0 sewing machine isn't going to help, I couldn't care less whether it makes 130kW, you need torque in a big chubby cabrio To all those turbo naysayers, well what do you propose?

    Jaguar has done well under Ford, pity Ford's PAG has been a financial basket case, aside from Volvo. The funny thing is the Mondeo beats the X-Type by 13 places and it's based on the Mondeo.

    Don't laugh at modern Skodas, putting it bluntly, only the ignorant and misinformed do now. When I go to Europe, it always surprises me how many times people tell you "eh, they're really good now, they're just VW with a Czech badge" (often the press prefer their setup to the dowdy VWs). The advertising over there has focusd on that - there is nothing to be embarassed of.

    Satisfaction is 100% perception, matching expectations with perceptions. Simple trick in marketing is always set your expectations lower than what you deliver, to deliver satisfaction.

    I'd be curious to see the 307's performance in a few years, as I suspect most of the dissatisfaction was caused by quality/reliability issues. There's no point euphemising such a result, it's a bloody disgrace for Peugeot. COM2000 seems to be quietening down now, and I hear they're working on a cure for multiplexitis Running the 307 site, I do get reports from the UK and I find they're just generally hopeless at customer service over there.

    I get reports from techs here too. Peugeot themselves don't have a great attitude when it comes to some technical issues (gee, but they write to you in a really pompous tone). Case example, the 1.6 TU5JP4 engines have a problem with squealing drive belts when cold, happens in 206, 307, etc. Dealers don't deny it, heck if I arrive at my dealer early in the morning, I can hear the squealy things rattling around. Peugeot France denies the problem exists. Peugeot Oz says to fit a non Peugeot drive belt. What a great attitude from France, so Australia just tells its dealers to fit a non genuine Peugeot belt. At least it works, but head office should try and fix the problem, not deny it. They're behaving as if they're the Russian administration and the Kursk!

    Sometimes they're a little better, look at brake pads. 307 brakes, as good as they are, can squeal a bit. Peugeot changes the part numbers on the pads and miraculously customer complaints quieten down a bit. They didn't tell anyone about any change in pads, just a silent change.

    I have some recent reliability reports that I don't have access to here in the office, I'll dig up later tonight. These aren't done by customers, they're actually based on a study of repairs.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  8. #8
    nJm
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    Seeing where the current Laguna is placed confirms what an 'insider' told me the other day. Sounds like the Laguna suffers many problems, many of which have Renault stumped.

    Still, despite this PSA accounts for 15% of the european market and I think Renault is now around the 9.75% mark (will have to check that).

    Actually, the trend over there shows that it is the french cars and low end german cars that are 'in' at the moment, and japanese cars are on the decline.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! two-oh-philic's Avatar
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    what is dowdy?
    205 GTi (S2 ) rolled

    '96 306XR "Sex" Black

  10. #10
    nJm
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    Many recent VWs have had fairly under developed suspension. The current (nearly superceded) Golf has been viewed fairly harshly by the motoring press in both Australia and Europe. In one test on a country road Wheels were amazed that the rear suspension in the Golf reached maximum extension and still couldn't keep the wheels on the ground (just a flowing bumpy road, which the others such as Astra and 306 coped fine with). They are generally soft and wallowy. On the other hand the early versions of the Passat we know today were found to ride too harshly and lacked the dynamics of competitors.

    It seems that VW Group brands like Skoda, Seat and Audi can do a much better job with the same platform.
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

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    Quote Originally Posted by nJm
    Actually, the trend over there shows that it is the french cars and low end german cars that are 'in' at the moment, and japanese cars are on the decline.
    Says who?

    Over the past year, Japanese car makers increased their market share in Europe from 11% to 13.1%.

    See page 9 here: http://www.mellor.net/mellor/enews.n...o_enews214.pdf

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    Here are the reliability stats I promised from What Car? There is actually data on average repair cost, average repair time and claims per 100 cars, but I'll just put in a ranking based on claims oer 100 cars (I'm typing it all up). There is also data on average age and average mileage of the cars in the sample. If you'd like further info, just ask.

    Ranking. Make. Claims per 100 cars.

    1. Mazda 19
    2. Suzuki 21
    3. Toyota 21
    4. Honda 24
    5. Subaru 25
    6. Mercedes Benz 26
    7. SEAT 27
    8. Nissan 29
    9. Mitsubishi 31
    10. Hyundai 32
    11. Volkswagen 33
    12. Volvo 34
    13. Ford 40
    14. Rover 40
    15. MG 41
    16. FIAT 41
    17. BMW 43
    18. Renault 44
    19. Audi 44
    20. Daewoo 44
    21. Vauxhall 45
    22. Peugeot 45
    23. Alfa Romeo 50
    24. SAAB 50
    25. Chrysler 51
    26. Citroen 55
    27. Land Rover 55

    Notice what part of the world 8 of the top 10 cars come from? I have to say, Hyundai has come a long way since those crappy Excels the other Mr Bond used to import But then Korea gives us Daewoo and Kia just to remind us how far they've come

    Notice where a few German marques are...tsk, tsk.

    Summaries of the French marques

    Renault - 18th - "Apart from the Espace and the Safrane, Renaults do pretty well."

    Peugeot - 22nd - "Uneven performance. But 406's poor showing is a worrying sign."

    Citroen - 26th - "Newer Citroens look to have shrugged off the worst problems suffered by older cars."

    Average Age
    Peugeot: 3.72 years
    Renault: 3.76 years
    Citroen: 4.27 years

    Average Mileage:
    Renault: 63,761 km.
    Peugeot: 67,702 km.
    Citroen: 75,741 km.

    Average Repair Cost (based on 1 AUD = 0.40 GBP)
    Citroen: AUD 575
    Peugeot:AUD 658
    Renault: AUD 678

    Average Repair Time
    Peugeot: 2.74 hrs
    Renault: 2.88 hrs
    Citroen: 2.93 hrs

    Top 10 LEAST Reliable Models

    Model / Claims per 100 vehicles

    Renault Espace (2nd Gen) - 102 (I guess they're saying on average cars have more than one claim)
    Alfa Romeo 164 - 93
    Citroen XM - 92
    Renault Safrane - 87
    Rover 200 Coupe - 83
    SAAB 9000 Sedan (CD) - 73
    VW Corrado - 71
    SAAB 9000 Hatch (CS) - 69
    Vauxhall Calibra - 69 (take note Haakon )
    Range Rover (95-) - 69

    Top 10 MOST Reliable Models

    Model / Claims per 100 vehicles

    Mercedes Benz SLK - 4
    Toyota RAV4 - 5
    Honda CRV - 6
    Mazda MX5 - 7
    Mercedes Benz E-Class - 8
    Nissan Almera - 8
    Renault Clio - 9
    Volvo V40 - 12
    Suzuki Vitara - 12
    SAAB 9-3 - 13

    Interesting Points

    25% of Subarus need work (5th), but average repair cost is the highest at AUD 2640 (1 AUD = 0.40 GBP). So seems you're in a lucky draw with a Suby, you probably won't need a repair but you'll be damn sorry if you do.

    Fords have cheapest average repair costs at AUD 470.

    Hyundais actually have higher average repair costs than BMWs (AUD 685 vs AUD 598).

    Toyotas actually have higher average repair costs than Mercedes (AUD 968 vs AUD 753).

    Bear in mind these are based on UK data.

    Suzukis have the shortest average repair time - 1.13 hrs.
    Subarus have the longest average repair time - 7.55 hrs.

    MGs had the lowest average milage in the sample at 47,691 km.
    Volvos had the highest average mileage in the sample at 87,713 km.

    Hope you found this interesting.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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    Member Dave B's Avatar
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    Top of the heap, the Berlingo
    The bloke with too many BX's

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    Pug307 those figures and details are pretty interesting. I think an accurate description of the 3 brands we love...

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Ah yes, but there are 2 Renaults and a Citroen in the top 4 unreliable cars, and we still like them. But I havnt even driven one yet, so I will decide after that
    From what I've read, a lot of the Calibra reputation is down to a problem with porous cylinder heads - faults in the casting allowed oil to mix with coolant, and all will have done it and been fixed by now, or have been fine to start with.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    XTC
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    Overall it is a pretty shocking result ... to have ALL your cars almost at the bottom (only the Berlingo had a decent score and that's nothing to brag about) something is wrong ...

    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

  17. #17
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    you can't take tooo much from the JD Power Survey. It's more relevant for us to see some of the reliability stats, rather than the perception and happiness levels.

    Micra used to be a bit higher than that, was as high as 5 back in 1995.

    I remember one year the Kia Mentor came 2nd. Only because it was a reliable car and the owners expected unreliability and got better service and the car was better than expected. Doesn't mean that if you like Peugeots that you should go and buy a Kia.

  18. #18
    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    you can't take tooo much from the JD Power Survey. It's more relevant for us to see some of the reliability stats, rather than the perception and happiness levels.
    Perception becomes reality (even if completely untrue)

    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    I remember one year the Kia Mentor came 2nd. Only because it was a reliable car and the owners expected unreliability and got better service and the car was better than expected. Doesn't mean that if you like Peugeots that you should go and buy a Kia.
    Promise less, deliver more = high satisfaction !

    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTI124
    you can't take tooo much from the JD Power Survey. It's more relevant for us to see some of the reliability stats, rather than the perception and happiness levels.
    I can only say that if effective communication regarding warranty repairs or "nearly inside warranty" repairs were my criterion, I'd never buy another Peugeot. I have the 306 because it drives so superbly and is so practical, despite the national distributor not because of their skills in keeping customers happy.

    I'm inclined to think that the fundamental issue of building reliable cars is still not the French strong point. Well not since R8, R16, R12 and 404 time anyway.

    I bought both the 306 and the Xantia despite the reliability issue not because of it, and knew that I had local service people who are really, really good. I suspect poor electrical system design/connectors and hate the heater radiator access business. And they are both definitely manual not automatic. That's reality for me.

    JohnW

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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    I can only say that if effective communication regarding warranty repairs or "nearly inside warranty" repairs were my criterion, I'd never buy another Peugeot. JohnW
    I'd say the same thing .. then again we are talking about the same dealer here.

    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Average Age
    Peugeot: 3.72 years
    Renault: 3.76 years
    Citroen: 4.27 years
    Just wondering..what's this age refering to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rc968
    Just wondering..what's this age refering to?
    The average age of the cars in the sample.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  23. #23
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    I'd say the same thing .. then again we are talking about the same dealer here.

    - XTC206 -
    I guess we are talking about the same dealer, and service not sales. They seem to have lifted their game quite a bit in the service department in the last couple of years as far as I can gather. My gripe really (apart from their earlier service performance) was that I couldn't get a good response from the Peugeot people about the (perennial.....) matter of having two heater matrices fail within about 2 years. I still don't know why and still don't know if they've modified the offending design etc.

    Cheers

    John

  24. #24
    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW
    I guess we are talking about the same dealer, and service not sales. They seem to have lifted their game quite a bit in the service department in the last couple of years as far as I can gather.
    You'll have a choice soon ... dealer number 2 is due to arrive sometime in the first half of 2004. No wonder they are trying to get as many deposits on the 307CC down as possible now (it's about 15 deposits so far) - no idea how many for the 206GTi-180 though, but only 1 car has been issued to WA in the first shipment (and no it's not mine)

    - XTC206(180 - I wish!) -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    You'll have a choice soon ... dealer number 2 is due to arrive sometime in the first half of 2004. No wonder they are trying to get as many deposits on the 307CC down as possible now (it's about 15 deposits so far) - no idea how many for the 206GTi-180 though, but only 1 car has been issued to WA in the first shipment (and no it's not mine)

    - XTC206(180 - I wish!) -
    In a word, "good"! Let's hope for a more prominent location too. Near invisibility, away from most other dealers, doesn't sell cars too well I reckon.

    Thanks for the info. We're about 10 years away from changing anything, mind you!

    Cheers

    JohnW

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