Does it bother you can't buy WRC-style cars from Peugeot/Citroen?
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  1. #1
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    Icon13 Does it bother you can't buy WRC-style cars from Peugeot/Citroen?

    Because it sure bothers me. If you don't know what I'm on about, I'm a tad annoyed that Puegeot and Citroen (Ford too! But this is a french car forum.) race highly competitive turbo AWD cars in the WRC, yet sell underpowered FWD semi-luxury cars. What's up with that? Subaru and Mistubishi seem to have no problem pushing cars that, while not quite as fast or competitive, at least resemble their WRC versions. And I'm not talking about styling here.

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    The least Puegeot could do is sell a 206 that looks like the 206WRC. ie wide track, front lip and rear spoiler. The 206WRC looks much more agressive than the roadgoing 206.

    Looks like Peugeot are going to continue the trend with the 307WRC. I'll eat my hat if there's a 307 sold with all wheel drive and turbo to the general pubic.

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I suppose the point is, how many potential owners have the ability to handle them, which bank would you need to rob to pay for the car and the insurance and given the price, would the only people who could afford to buy them (well; lease, HP, Personal loan) be the yuppie types who wouldn't appreciate the appeal and would rather buy a Lexus 4WD, or a Cruiser or some other "Wally trolley" with tinted windows and alloy bull bar to drive to the local white shoe & gold chains gatherings.

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    Not that i could afford one, but i think it would be awesome..

    It is disappointing though you can't buy something along those lines... but i guess the 206 GTI 180, is suppose to fit into that catergory.. just not AWD or TURBO'D..
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    1000+ Posts purrr-geot's Avatar
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    Of course it is annoying!

    look at it from the manufacturers point of view though.
    Like alanS said
    What is the point in making a car which would require heaps of reasearch and devolpment and cost heap to make.

    If such cars were to be released they would cost i'd imagine in excess of $100,000 (i may stand corrected), which would mean the market for such a vehicle would be tiny.

    A perfect example was the very limited release of the pug 205t16. there is a very small amount for the very small market a perfect match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Mi16
    It is disappointing though you can't buy something along those lines... but i guess the 206 GTI 180, is suppose to fit into that catergory.. just not AWD or TURBO'D..
    AWD is a whole different ball game ... the WRC version is nothing like the road version... but a turbo shouldn't be out of the question ... mix it with ESP* and traction control* it's be safe enough as a FWD only.

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    Basically, the point seems to be - where is Peugeot's WRX?

    PSA has a main disadvantage over Subaru in that the platforms it uses are not really designed for AWD. The rear suspension designs aren't really desgined to host AWD, giving rise to a probable requirement for a new rear suspension design. Subaru's Imprezas are AWD cars. Given that a 'Peugeot WRX' would be a low volume model, you don't have many cars from which you can recoup your original engineering investment. Chances are you'd have prohibitively high retail prices as a result (of course you could use the car as an image builder, but I don't really think the brands need one, the WRC cars do this effectively).

    I notice according to Peugeot's website that the 307 WRC is using "pseudo McPherson" front AND rear, looks like they dumped the torsion beam at the back.

    The Focus should be capable of AWD, given that the C1 platform sharing S40 can be equipped with AWD. Multilink systems are a lot more friendly in this regard (and a lot more costly to build).

    I do think PSA should pursue turbocharging for its petrol engines. If you look beneath the bonnet of the C3 or 307 (ie. the two latest platforms), there's really no room for anything larger than what's currently in there - engineers will have fun fitting a 2.0 in a 207GTi. Certainly the 307 could benefit from turbocharging, the 2.0 has alot of weight to haul in the Estate version. It's hard to argue with the driveability you get from a low pressure turbo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Basically, the point seems to be - where is Peugeot's WRX?
    Exactly. Peugeot sell four times as many cars as Subaru and have a much greater market penetration. I don't think it's unreasonable to think there'd be a demand to justify the engineering costs. I believe one reason for motorsport is to experiment with engineering ideas on a small scale and eventually feed that technology back into the production line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    I do think PSA should pursue turbocharging for its petrol engines. If you look beneath the bonnet of the C3 or 307 (ie. the two latest platforms), there's really no room for anything larger than what's currently in there - engineers will have fun fitting a 2.0 in a 207GTi. Certainly the 307 could benefit from turbocharging, the 2.0 has alot of weight to haul in the Estate version. It's hard to argue with the driveability you get from a low pressure turbo.
    Sort of like what SAAB does? I really don't think low pressure turbocharging fits with the Peugeot brand. They're seen by many as a pseudo-sporty brand with a hint of luxury thrown into the mix. That kind of thing would probably be more up Citroen's alley.

    Regarding the McPherson struts; They can't be that expensive or complicated to manufacture, my Mum's Holden Astra boasts that as one of its features!

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    Quote Originally Posted by purrr-geot
    A perfect example was the very limited release of the pug 205t16. there is a very small amount for the very small market a perfect match.
    Sure, but that was over-engineered. The 405 T16 had ~400"* built and I believe the price was much lower. You still see the odd one selling in Europe for not unreasonable prices.


    Oh, and for a brand so closely associated with Rally, I find it a little strange they have such a fixation on FWD setups.



    *No one except Peugeot really knows the actual numbers.

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    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Unless you were planning to rally the WRC car, why would you want one. They're simply not designed as an every day driver, no syncro, square cut gears, short shifted clutchless gear changes. Nightmare stuff in city traffic, not to mention the high attrition rate of associated equipment. You must have more money than you know how to spend. Import a busted on & do it up, it'll look thr part as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien Gardner
    Unless you were planning to rally the WRC car, why would you want one. They're simply not designed as an every day driver, no syncro, square cut gears, short shifted clutchless gear changes. Nightmare stuff in city traffic, not to mention the high attrition rate of associated equipment. You must have more money than you know how to spend. Import a busted on & do it up, it'll look thr part as well.
    Hahah, no I understand all of that. I'm talking about an equivalent daily driver. AWD + Turbo doesn't mean it can't be a daily driver.

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Elky,

    I've got a little project for you mate.

    Go to "Shannons Insurance" or "Young & Cool" on the 'net and get an online quote. Now speaking from experience from within my family, put in the details such that you are under 25, your postcode is always required as it has a bearing on premium and as a comparable vehicle, put in a Nissan Gt-R. say a '92 model.

    Now this will be something to compare to these rally cars; 4WD, 4WS, Turbo, Multi Valve, around 400 neddys under the bonnet, ABS, traction control, a vehicle capable of competition straight off the showroom floor, and let us know the premium, the excess and any other limitations or charges they apply.

    I think once you see that, you'll understand why PSA don't make a road car with those specs.


    Alan S

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    Default Oh yeah

    As Meg Ryan said to Billy Crystal - Yes, Yes Yes

    For all it's ideosyncrasies, I love my Pug and really enjoy driving it but... do I wish that Peugeot would bring out a turbo-4wd 206 or at least something with a little more than 180bhp... abso-frigging-lutely. Please don't get me wrong I'm sure the 206 GTi 180 is a great car but like the Ford Focus ST170 it's just not enough.

    Granted these performance vehicles are a much smaller market but each brand needs one or more real flagships and I think Peugeot's demographics are probably split between owners seeking reliable, different luxurious cars and a younger driver seeking something sporty & different. This is probably a whole 'nother' topic but what is Peugeot's flagship?? Would Subaru have sold as many Imprezas or Liberty's if they didn't have the WRX or would Mitsubishi sell all those Lancers without the Evo. IMHO the WRC cars create the initial impact but the road cars create the urban legends and drive brand loyalty and awareness.

    I'm lucky enough to have actually driven a 205-T16 and even though they were detuned for the road, they handle brilliantly and with minor mods would be an absolute road weapon.

    I think we all know that the WRC cars bear very little true resemblance to their on-road brethren but cars like the WRX, EVO or going back a bit, Lancia Delta Integrale, Audi Quattro or Renault 5GTT are awesome road cars.

    If Renault can build a rear-engine V6 Clio, what is Peugeot's excuse for not having a real flagship sportscar?

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    AlanS ...

    Not many 25YO could afford such machinery ... but plenty of mid 30's can - or are you saying they will be beyond it by then. Actually most of my WRX driving driving friends are the 35-40 set .. so why not a AWD, Turbo Pug ???

    - XTC206 -
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    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    There certainly have been a few on the 206gti list that have migrated onto WRXes too.

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I believe one reason for motorsport is to experiment with engineering ideas on a small scale and eventually feed that technology back into the production line.
    Well you'd dam hope so anyway.. lol

    Yes.. it annoys me that 4wd turbo options for the 206 does'nt exist..

    but hay.. i know complete utter didaly squat when it comes to running any sort of business.. so ill just sit here grumpaly in my corner and hope there is a legimate reason why they havent released such a weapon..

    I mean .. obvoisly it doenst have to be a WRC spec ball tearer.... and why couldnt they be under the $80,000 bracket to compeat with WRX's and Evo's

    He'll.. If there were available.. i think id seriously consider selling my left nut for one..

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    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Interesting preposition..

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XTC206
    AlanS ...

    Not many 25YO could afford such machinery ... but plenty of mid 30's can - or are you saying they will be beyond it by then. Actually most of my WRX driving driving friends are the 35-40 set .. so why not a AWD, Turbo Pug ???

    - XTC206 -
    I think statistics speak for themselves on that matter. Have a look at the Auctions list every week for cars in the category and the real life instance I have suggested be researched (Nissan Gt-R) or the WRX for that matter; there's rarely a week goes by that there's not at least one shown as a "Statutory write off."
    From a practical view point, get the quote if you can & see how much they quote regardless of how good a driving record you might have. Live in a capital City and usually the conditions are so strict you nearly have to have it locked in a vault 24/7 with an armed guard permanently on duty.
    My guess is that someone in Sydney or Melbourne would be lucky to get any insurance & if they could, it will definitely be over $10,000 for premium & excess combined.
    No doubts as you would be aware; no insurance - no finance unless you're prepared to risk $100K


    Alan S

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Guys,

    I really can't see the point to them making the cars above other than 'Image' for the brand.

    Fast cars are no fun at all in traffic, and lets admit it, that's where most of us spend our time driving. Eg. I can have a LOT more fun driving a 2cv around town than my CX turbo. You can belt the sh!+ out of the 2cv, have it on it's door handles around corner and generaly drive like a suicidal lunatic without breaking the speed limit

    The CX, at any legal speed, you point the steering wheel that way, that's where it goes, even at stupidly reckless speeds around town, it just grips and turns Infact several days after my father sold me the CX, he headed out to daylesford, there is a roundabout in the road out to the that he used to throw the CX through at high speed everytime. I think he frightened the sh!+ out of himself as the modern Magna on 16" wheels he completely lost through it

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    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    I think statistics speak for themselves on that matter. Have a look at the Auctions list every week for cars in the category and the real life instance I have suggested be researched (Nissan Gt-R) or the WRX for that matter; there's rarely a week goes by that there's not at least one shown as a "Statutory write off." From a practical view point, get the quote if you can & see how much they quote regardless of how good a driving record you might have. Live in a capital City and usually the conditions are so strict you nearly have to have it locked in a vault 24/7 with an armed guard permanently on duty.
    My guess is that someone in Sydney or Melbourne would be lucky to get any insurance & if they could, it will definitely be over $10,000 for premium & excess combined. No doubts as you would be aware; no insurance - no finance unless you're prepared to risk $100K Alan S
    While insurance is part of it .. I can't seeing it being the crux of the matter. I know a few people running around in $100,000+ cars (e.g Porsche, Lotus and the like) that the owners pay about $2.5K a year in insurance. A reasonable amount.

    If pug released a "WRX like" car .. somewhere between $45K and $75K in sufficent numbers (not just a run of 100) .. it'd only be $10K insurance if under a certain age, with certain driving record.

    The people who can AFFORD such a car are usually the 30-50YOs, where age, experience and sensibilities are on their side.

    The reason Pug don't release a AWD/Turbo 206 is it was never designed for it (the WRC car is nothing like the road car - not even close). You don't go build 3.5 millon 206's then change your plans. Maybe a glimmer of hope with a newer model - but the 206's life is over, maybe a last ditch attempt at turbo's as the final swan song (which I think the GTi180 is all about) - but don't ever expect AWD.

    - XTC206 -
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    Fellow Frogger! bennymarsh's Avatar
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    I agree with Steve, there would be no where nearly as many liberties and imprezas on the road if it wasn't for the WRX! It will be interesting to see how many of those new roadsters they sell!

    But im always amazed to see how many young people are driving around WRX's. I had 2 guys in my soccer team last year with WRX's and they were both under 25! They never did tell me how they afforded them though! Espetially when they couldn't afford to buy a house! (then again thats probably why!)

    But as people have said, if they did make them im sure they would sell, first to eh the 30-50 year olds, and then you would see a filtering down to younger people! I mean how many of the people on here driving 306's got them new? Even many of the other common cars on the board? Not many!

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I agree XTC 206. (funny, we agree a lot on things).

    There is no HERO car in the PSA range. This really disappoints me. I'm relatively successful and have a high disposable income (yeah, I'm driving a Micra, but that's just for fun!), and I want my next car to be a decent piece of kit.

    I had a GTi-6, where do I go from there in the PSA range? Do I go down a size to 206 GTI 180? What about a sports car that is completely impractical, like the RC Spades and Diamond concept cars? I've got nowhere to go with PSA for my next single man car, except the 206 and I'm still not convinced by it.

    I don't want smaller, what happens when I have a family and want a performance larger car from the French? It's not just a lack of a rally inspired car, they're also lacking a decent performing larger car. A 307 with a decent engine in it would be a start, or perhaps they need to build that 607 concept with AWD and a turboed V6 in it.

    I feel the PSA range lacks aspirational vehicles. Do I have to buy a 406 Coupe and throw a turbo on that engine to have a performance larger car?

    Or, I might just have to leave the French and get a Liberty GT, 156 GTA or Volvo.

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    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I also don't agree that manufacturers don't build cars because of insurance. Yeah, insurance companies love charging a fortune for grey import performance cars. So they should! They're cheap and generally owned by hoons. It's OK, if I was that age and wanted a car, I'd be looking at the same and I'm sure with that much power I'd be at a much higher risk. But I don't think manufacturers care that much to not build a car.

    I heard the PSA chairman say something about them being a high volume manufacturer only. The niche markets don't interest them, but I love them to have an asprirational car of some kind.

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    Fellow Frogger! mi16_weapon's Avatar
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    I think the big difference is that i at the time of cars like the t16, rally cars were proper "production" models (with basic mods ie tuning, gearbox, tyres), meaning that the manufacturer had to build and release a certain number of the car before they were allowed to race it.

    Unfortunately with the current wrc rules the main wrc class is no longer a production class ( i think the xzaras used to be in a proper "production" class a couple of years back when they were blitzing the competion with front only wd).

    And of course these cars would be expensive as a production car... but how many wrxs do you see running around?? theyre as common as a#@holes! (theyre generally driving them too) And how many of em do you see running around with big intercooler, suspension, body and turbo mods?... loads! So doesnt it stand to reson that there is a fairly affluent market for this style of car??

    itd just be nice if they would do it. I might not be able to afford one now... but in 10 years time i could!!!
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    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    Default I think French engineers are....

    probably better than the Germans, and at least equal to the Italians, however in matters of marketing and support the Germans have it all over the others. I think this directly relates to what gets the production 'nod'. I can't imagine the M3 is a great money spinner for BMW, but jeez it provides some credibility. The Gti180 is a step in the right direction, that's for sure

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    So does this mean the next time somebody posts complaining about the size of their Insurance premium that I can refer them to this thread?




    Alan S

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