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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default "Fastener specifications"

    This could rate as humour...but you have remember that it is a paragraph in a nut and bolt specification document from the USA.

    The writer obviuosly has an issue with the USA not taking up metric more enthusiastically...read to the very end...it's a hoot!

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    Metric system (SI). The abbreviation for the metric system is SI, the International System of Units (from the French, Systeme International d'Unites). It evolved from the original French metric system and is currently being used virtually worldwide. Long the language universally used in science and among technically adept individuals, SI has also become the dominant language of international commerce and trade. All new USA standards (ASTM, ANSI, SAE, IEEE, ASME, etc.) are now written in metric, as the lead engineers in these organizations recognize the importance of trying to get the USA on track with technically advanced countries, in an effort to regain lost USA competitiveness in a global economy, as there is essentially no global market for the archaic, oddball, incompatible product dimensions USA arbitrarily comes up with, while they forfeit industries and jobs to third-world countries who have no problem understanding something so simple and fulfilling the need efficiently. IEEE was intelligent enough to recognize this decades ago. Japan also was intelligent enough to recognize simple matters such as this long ago. This small country, defeated in WWII only 60 years ago, has since captured a large portion of the global economy due to their intelligent progress, and consequently has become a major global financier, while USA has become a world-class debtor to the tune of trillions due to inefficient business practices, low educational level, slackerism, and inability to solve or understand even simple problems such as metric conversion.

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    Beautiful - if ever i need to describe the expression 'tongue in cheek' i'll just drag out this note.

    As for the topic - sadly it is the truth.
    Those people that say I know - generally don't.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bahay View Post
    This could rate as humour...but you have remember that it is a paragraph in a nut and bolt specification document from the USA.

    The writer obviuosly has an issue with the USA not taking up metric more enthusiastically...read to the very end...it's a hoot!


    John

    Metric system (SI). The abbreviation for the metric system is SI, the International System of Units (from the French, Systeme International d'Unites). It evolved from the original French metric system and is currently being used virtually worldwide. Long the language universally used in science and among technically adept individuals, SI has also become the dominant language of international commerce and trade. All new USA standards (ASTM, ANSI, SAE, IEEE, ASME, etc.) are now written in metric, as the lead engineers in these organizations recognize the importance of trying to get the USA on track with technically advanced countries, in an effort to regain lost USA competitiveness in a global economy, as there is essentially no global market for the archaic, oddball, incompatible product dimensions USA arbitrarily comes up with, while they forfeit industries and jobs to third-world countries who have no problem understanding something so simple and fulfilling the need efficiently. IEEE was intelligent enough to recognize this decades ago. Japan also was intelligent enough to recognize simple matters such as this long ago. This small country, defeated in WWII only 60 years ago, has since captured a large portion of the global economy due to their intelligent progress, and consequently has become a major global financier, while USA has become a world-class debtor to the tune of trillions due to inefficient business practices, low educational level, slackerism, and inability to solve or understand even simple problems such as metric conversion.
    I wonder if some pom could come up with a similar piece of "prose" about the British system.
    BSW, BSC,BSF, BSP, BA and they still love them.... BA is still used on some electrical switch gear and fittings. And we are well and truly stuck with BSP

    At least Peugeot and Citroen have stopped inventing metric bolt diameters and pitches and adopted SI bolts.

    But to be typically French they now make the fitting and removal tools many and varied.
    Last edited by robmac; 23rd November 2010 at 07:12 PM.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    pardon my ignorance, but what does that mean?
    Quite correct, I should have said Iso metric standard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

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    I love it!
    What's the source, please?

    Cheers!

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    BA is still used by some locksmith supply companies. To say I hate one company in particular is a massive understatement! They have the contempt for the end user that is hard to believe.
    "No we don't provide the fitting screws that's up to you."
    "Sorry we can't supply details of the screws because your not a locksmith and you'd know what they are anyway."
    If I won a massive Lotto prize I'd buy the company and sack the lot of them!

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    1000+ Posts bluey504's Avatar
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    At least with BSP we'd be in the merde without it!

  8. #8
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    Default The Source

    Quote Originally Posted by 505604 View Post
    I love it!
    What's the source, please?

    Cheers!
    I'm pleased to advise that my engineer daughter pointed out this 'rant' to me ....


    http://euler9.tripod.com/bolt-database/22.html
    The rest of the data is technical specification... The Metric SI para is where he lets loose & shows his frustration with the good ole USA.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    At least Peugeot and Citroen have stopped inventing metric bolt diameters and pitches and adopted SI bolts.
    I think that's a bit harsh, Rob, even with your later clarification. The weird sizes on the DS19 (e.g., 23 and 29mm heads on the steering relay mounting bolts) are exactly as specified in the old French metric standard of 1930.

    My gripe is that the Sloughs used BSW and BSF bolts to mount some of the things of their own manufacture, such as the seats on my DS19. Whitworth on a frog!

    Roger

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I want to know why I don't own any tools that fit the fasteners on my australian build lawn mower I thought we were a metric country !!!!

    seeya,
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I want to know why I don't own any tools that fit the fasteners on my australian build lawn mower I thought we were a metric country !!!!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Don't get me started!!!!

    Whoops! Too late! You did!

    Shane, you and I both were at school since 1972 when metric became the standard of measurement taught in Australia, yet I still hear and see people talk and write about someone being 6 foot tall and so many stone - people younger than you or I.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Don't get me started!!!!

    Whoops! Too late! You did!

    Shane, you and I both were at school since 1972 when metric became the standard of measurement taught in Australia, yet I still hear and see people talk and write about someone being 6 foot tall and so many stone - people younger than you or I.
    Well it isn't me they're talking about. I'm 5'9" and 10 stone 9 lbs.



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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Shane, you and I both were at school since 1972 when metric became the standard of measurement taught in Australia, yet I still hear and see people talk and write about someone being 6 foot tall and so many stone - people younger than you or I.
    Thats because for everyday measures, certain imperial measures are easier.

    Inches and feet are a far better measure for the average human to imagine.
    180 or 175 means nothing to me, where I imagine a massive difference between 6 foot, and 5 foot 8 inches.

    I'm educated in metric but i'd really have to think hard if addo sent me off for a bit of wood 1500 long and there is every chance I'd come back with the wrong bit, whereas if he said 5 feet, I'd know exactly which bit of lumber he was talking about and would instantly know which bits were not 5 foot long.

    As far as fixings go, the only totaly weird assed thing I've even been stumped by was my koni orange shocks.
    I cant remember what the thread size is, but its not a normal metric size, and one which tested the warehousing skills of my local nut supplier.


    Jo

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Thats because for everyday measures, certain imperial measures are easier.

    Inches and feet are a far better measure for the average human to imagine.
    180 or 175 means nothing to me, where I imagine a massive difference between 6 foot, and 5 foot 8 inches.

    I'm educated in metric but i'd really have to think hard if addo sent me off for a bit of wood 1500 long and there is every chance I'd come back with the wrong bit, whereas if he said 5 feet, I'd know exactly which bit of lumber he was talking about and would instantly know which bits were not 5 foot long.

    As far as fixings go, the only totaly weird assed thing I've even been stumped by was my koni orange shocks.
    I cant remember what the thread size is, but its not a normal metric size, and one which tested the warehousing skills of my local nut supplier.


    Jo
    Whether you like it or not some industries are still imperial measure. Nor are they ever likely to change.

    Printed circuit board design is one such industry.

    Various attempts have been made to change, usually by trying to "metricate" imperial measurements.

    However, solid core board producers will still scoff at metric measurement and elect to use the precise imperial baseline equivalents.

    What's worse some component manufactures have actually producing metric spacing devices.

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    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    Default Yankee Metric

    Interesting that the yanks also use a "metric" form of imperial measurement, which in fact, I find quite easy to use, and I first came across it about 1970, in Australia, long before Aust went metric.
    They use tenths of an inch instead of sixteenths. So measurements can be expressed as 1.25", 2.30", etc. Very easy to use.
    I have tried for years to get a measuring tape or rule marked in both mm and tenths of inch, but can only get sixteenths, even now thats what you'll find in the shops.

    Where I first came across it was in the car design industry, where full size engineering drawings of cars were drawn on a 10.00" grid (subdivided into 5.00" grid) and all detail was in tenths (or hundredths) of an inch.

    As far as I know, most of the aircraft industry also uses this system, as the majority of manufacturers originate in USA.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO View Post
    Don't get me started!!!!

    Whoops! Too late! You did!

    Shane, you and I both were at school since 1972 when metric became the standard of measurement taught in Australia, yet I still hear and see people talk and write about someone being 6 foot tall and so many stone - people younger than you or I.
    1972 .... I wasn't born in 1972 ... I think it would have been about 1980 I started school. I've never used or seen anything other metric through all the schooling I did. The imperial system still doesn't make a lot of sense. Metric is so simple, why would anyone want to use imperial. Even the most basic daily used stuff.... Eg: A 13mm spanner is slightly to small. I know without thinking about for even a pico-second, I'll be wanting a 14mm spanner..... Now if a 9/16 " spanner is too small....................... Um......... You grab every imperial spanner and go through them one at a time hoping one might actually fit. After all where do I go from 9/16?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    After all where do I go from 9/16?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Shifter or vice grips.


    Jo

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    Shifter or vice grips.


    Jo
    A well worn 14mm will fit.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fordman View Post
    Interesting that the yanks also use a "metric" form of imperial measurement, which in fact, I find quite easy to use, and I first came across it about 1970, in Australia, long before Aust went metric.
    They use tenths of an inch instead of sixteenths. So measurements can be expressed as 1.25", 2.30", etc. Very easy to use.
    I have tried for years to get a measuring tape or rule marked in both mm and tenths of inch, but can only get sixteenths, even now thats what you'll find in the shops.

    Where I first came across it was in the car design industry, where full size engineering drawings of cars were drawn on a 10.00" grid (subdivided into 5.00" grid) and all detail was in tenths (or hundredths) of an inch.

    As far as I know, most of the aircraft industry also uses this system, as the majority of manufacturers originate in USA.

    Chris.
    That is the circuit board "standard" most standard components are on 100 mil (.1 inch) grid.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    1972 .... I wasn't born in 1972 ... I think it would have been about 1980 I started school. I've never used or seen anything other metric through all the schooling I did. The imperial system still doesn't make a lot of sense. Metric is so simple, why would anyone want to use imperial. Even the most basic daily used stuff.... Eg: A 13mm spanner is slightly to small. I know without thinking about for even a pico-second, I'll be wanting a 14mm spanner..... Now if a 9/16 " spanner is too small....................... Um......... You grab every imperial spanner and go through them one at a time hoping one might actually fit. After all where do I go from 9/16?

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    The imperial system uses a geometric progression of 1/2 ratio for the denominator, effectively creating a baseline scale that can be infinitely divided further (1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/16, 1/32, etc). For instance if you want something very close to 9/16 all you need to do is go to the next term in the geometric progression by amplifying the fraction (9/16) by 2. That gives 18/32. Now if you want something incrementally larger, you need say 19/32, or incrementally smaller, 17/32. the problem is they don't make tools in all these fine steps, so you might have to go a little bit further up or down, but at least you know you need something around 18/32. If you can't find it, amplify this fraction by a further factor of 2, and look for something around 36/64.

    Personally I think all these systems are redundant and serve no purpose but to confuse people (especially as some size tools are not available as explained above) after everybody agreed to promote the SI (credit here is due to all the academics in the US who insist in their books that the SI system should be used and work only in SI through all the problems and exercises they offer their students). There are however industries which originated and developed strongly in countries which at the time used the imperial systems and are today the largest manufacturers in these industries so there's no scope for them to change. The drilling industry still uses imperial measures everywhere and of course the oil industry uses the same, as they drill the most. it only follows naturally that pipelines are all in imperials and of course then, the associated threads need to be imperial as well.

    The confusion is dramatic when the two different systems are used by countries trying to colaborate on a project as demonstrated in the ESA-NASA mission to Mars not so long ago when the lander crashed into the red planet because the two groups just used their own systems without bothering to check what the other party was doing. Lesson learned, so hopefully we're not going to see the LHC plagued by the same problems.

    For our friend above who couldn't find the right metric size bolt, please note there are three (at least) pitch sizes used: fine, normal and coarse. So you can have a M10 bolt in all three pitches for instance. The problem is that the fine pitch for a M10 bolt is not going to be the same as for a M4. One possible confusion is that some UNF threads come close to some of the fine pitch sizes of metric. This was at the origin of an airplane drama some time ago when a tech replaced the UNF screws on the windshield of a BA BAC 1-11 jet with the metric size which was just a tad smaller, but enough that the bolts came loose and the plane lost its windshield midflight with dramatic consequences for the crew.

    There are also a variety of heads, and for instance japanese manufacturers like to use undersized bolt heads. A normal hexagonal M8 bolt head for instance should require the use of a 13 spanner, but often you will find on Japanese cars they need a 12. Just guessing, they probably use these because they require less access room around their heads, which could possibly help with lowering manufacturing costs as all shoulders on say cast items can be narrower (think sumps, etc).
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 24th November 2010 at 05:52 PM.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts mr bern's Avatar
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    If my constituents considered themselves divinely empowered to carry weapons, I probably wouldn't be in a hurry to push the metric system down their collective throats, either ...
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    I reckon the poms are steadfastly refusing to go metric for the same reason they don't want to be part of the EU...cos they still hate the french.

    Get with it England.

  23. #23
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    And driving French cars I an understand why!

    Fento

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    i must be living in the past, around 1972. there is a speed information rig near Geraldton that tells you the speed you are doing in Miles Per Hour. It does not compute with me, even though I was born in 1941. Even my 1971 DS21 has a KPH speedometer that I fitted. The Mericans think they lead the world but they are light years behind everyone else.

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    And to further confuse the Imperial system the poms reduced the standard bolt head size to save metal during WW11. The logic of changing the stamped size on their spanners to match seemed to have escaped them, however.

    schlitzaugen has hit on an interesting point, that the Imperial system used FRACTIONS of an inch, while pommy engineering used DECIMALS of the same inch. Hence 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, to infinity with fractional divisions, and the common thousandths of an inch with decimal divisions.

    I have a Vernier caliper that has both Metric scale and Imperial fractional scale. I trot it out occasionally to ask learned tradesmen to read it. This exercise has led to many interesting sessions at the local pub.

    Regards,

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