Citroyota or Toyogeot - any suggestions??
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  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Citroyota or Toyogeot - any suggestions??

    This came thru on one of my mailing lists this morning - Does this mean that we will see names like Citroyota or Toyogeot? Or will it just mean that future Froggy Freaks will miss out on the joys of heaters that work when they feel like it & electricals that make brave men go weak at the knees??
    Not trying to be racist but - if ever I saw two races poles apart in culture & demeanour, French & Japanese would have to be the furtherest. How will they co-exist ??


    June 29, 2001

    |---------------------------------------------------------|
    |PSA PEUGEOT CITROËN and TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION Announce|
    |They Should Sign Agreement on Joint Development and Joint|
    | Production |
    |---------------------------------------------------------|

    Advertisement




    PSA PEUGEOT CITROËN and TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION today announced
    that ongoing cooperation talks should lead to the signing of a
    memorandum of understanding on 12 July for the joint development
    of a new vehicle platform to be used in joint production in
    Europe of small, entry-level passenger cars for both parties.

    Primarily designed for European markets, this new car concept
    has been conceived to meet the changing needs of local drivers.
    Cars produced using this common platform will have a three-fold
    advantage: they will have prices lower than those in the current
    small-car segment; feature a high-level of standard safety
    performances; and offer excellent environmental achievements.

    PSA PEUGEOT CITROËN views this new cooperation between two
    independent companies as a further materialization of the
    Group's strategy aimed at reaching agreements on the joint
    development and production of mechanical components and platform
    elements, with the objective of obtaining economies of scale.

    TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION considers this collaboration as one of
    its efforts to meet consumer demand for low-cost, fuel-efficient
    and environment-friendly vehicles. It believes that working
    together will provide a capable response to the expanding small
    passenger car market.

    TMC President Fujio Cho and PSA CEO Jean-Martin Folz intend to
    sign a memorandum of understanding in Brussels on July 12, 2001,
    after which they hope to outline this new cooperation at a joint
    press conference, on the same day. Details on the conference
    site, etc., will be provided through a media advisory at a later
    date.
    Alan S


    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  2. #2
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    Maybe Peugeot is merging with Toyota!

    C'mon its not that silly! Renault just bought Nissan.
    "Indecision is the key to flexibility" Anon.

  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I used to manage a Toyota outlet & a big one at that. Toyota are so much in touch with the market that there is no way in the world that they will not bring Citroen sales up to around what Mitsubishi is at present, on that I have no doubt.
    What is the worry is that Citroen as an entity will disappear as Toyota is passionately Japanese & may drop ol' Andre's handle just for the hell of it.
    Japanese culture being what it is "keeping up with the Jonses" could become "keeping up with the Fords" hence the innovative Citroen legend will die away.
    Now whilst those who are of the "we must move with the times" type of logic which would have made poor old AC turn in his premature grave may have a point, it must be remembered that in the past couple of years, GMH have proudly announced that their "cars" now have variable power steering - gee whizz dead set - hey the Cits had that 45 years ago - 'n 'n active suspension - hey Citroen shelved that idea 55 years ago only to revive it when Volvo decided it was a great thing for modern motoring !! So the greatest thing for Toyota to achieve with this "memorandum of understanding" is that Citroen is, was, & always will be the benchmark of innovative car design & forward thinking development within the motor industry. Although Toyota was instrumental in the improvement of the A40 motor (Corona) & the Mercedes OHC design, (CROWN) they will only stagnate if they keep copying & improving on older designs & restrict the imaginative innovations of the Citroen engineers which to this day still follow the basic principle as laid out by Andre' Citroen before the turn of the Century.

    As I say - it's got to be - a bit of a worry.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Alan,
    couldn't agree more, this continual movement toward sharing common components and homogenisation in the motor industry ultimately has to be a backward step, it wont be long before we will have a choice of any colour...... as long as it's black. I hope my current vehicles see me out because I just wouldn't feel right in anything other than a Froggy Cit.

    by the way missed your piece in the Sunday Mail did they publish.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  5. #5
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    No; Mr Packer's boys (& girls) thought it was a bit hot for his political bias so did not print it. However I also sent it to our local rag who also decided to give it a miss, so I stuck it up the local yokel & threatened to send a complaint to the press council based on the obvious political bias being shown, as a result I received an apology from the Editor in person today & an assurance that it will appear in this Friday's paper.
    Just to show I don't have any obvious bias to any political party, I've given the State Transport Dept a serve for insulting the intelligence of the average taxpayer & then sent a broadside at li'l Johnny just for good measure. I always was the diplomatic type; the Editors think so anyway

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  6. #6
    zac
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    Hey Toyota make great cars, Citroen, well, a lever to make suspension adjustments??
    Sorry citroen owners, we used to own one of those though

    But yeah I hate this too, looks like we are moving closer and closer to the '5 big manufacturers' that has been predicted

  7. #7
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Hey Zac,
    I was starting to like you, have you ever driven or even been a passenger in any Citroen, wash your mouth out and gargle with LHM. I vote for a ban on the T word.

    Keep the Frog French.

    Hope your sticker fades to nothing.
    Just Kidding
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Great idea Chris, we should start a Keep The Frog French movement,
    a ban on the T word, could anyone imagine a Cit being as boring as a camry or a Pug being as ugly as a celica.......VIVA LA FRANCE!!!!!!!!!

    David.

    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

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  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I think the one thing that should worry anyone with an attachment to French cars is that whilst the Japanese motor industry have made some reasonably good cars, their ideas of innovation is by & large based on copying the ideas of others. They also have the habit of building in "planned obscolesence" by either direct or indirect means.
    Here's a good example/comparison: What did Toyotas look like in the '60's & '70's ?? Aerodynamically - bricks. Remember the Crown & Corona? Mechanically they didn't even have independent rear suspensions and had drum brakes. By comparison Citroen had the full hydraulic suspension all independent, and power disc brakes & steering, & front wheel drive. Aerodynamics which were breathtaking, & safety features which Toyota & others had to have legislation passed to force them into.
    Toyota's greatest claim to fame in those days was that it copied a Mercedes motor but didn't tell anyone that the temperature switch didn't operate if the water got low or if the pump intake hose sucked in shut (which they often did) that it had no water level warning switch & hence they cooked motors like they were going out of style. Now here's the best bit - to my knowledge that "oversight " still existed in their vehicles up to recently & may still exist to this day, so 30 years from now, do you think there will be as many Citroyotas around percentage wise as there are genuine Citroens today??
    BTW before we start getting too excited about what "great cars" Toyota make, consider this - The era of Toyota I have used above as comparison with Citroen was one where their sales were very high per capita by comparison to Citroen. It was also a time when Toyota were as interested in making cars that would last as well as sell, an ethic they have long since abandoned. Now, sales are everything, parts prices extortionate, but of the many thousands of older Toyotas which were sold, how many do you see on the road, advertised or regularly driven by comparison to Citroens of the same age??
    So to describe a Citroen as being something with a lever to adjust the suspension as being it's greatest attribute, is really an insult to everyones mentality whilst at the same time demonstrating a total lack of genuine knowledge of the motor industry.
    FWIW, the Toyota franchise I worked for was the biggest outside any capital city in Australia, so I'm not sitting on my vocal cords when I make statements about Toyota as others have about Citroens

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! billtran's Avatar
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    Who knows? Look at the positives, Citroen and Peugeot might gain the build quality and reliability of a Toyota - lets be honest, something both cars desperately need.

    Yes, Toyotas are exceedingly dull but that doesn't mean Citroen need to become dull as well. I believe Toyota holds a major stake in Yamaha who make some of the best and most awesome bikes on the market.

    Then of course, sharing platforms will save PSA money - more money that can be spent into R&D. The VW experience shows this works very well whilst ensuring their different brands maintain their 'identities'.

    You're not paranoid if everyone hates you.

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    lets be serious here, you can buy a new Camry for considerably less than a new 'Cit'. I wouldn't even say the two don't compare. My mother had a lease camry through her work last year. The thing was a bloody good car apart from the fact it bored me to tears. Now being a lease car, we all sort of drove it as such...

    With a Quad overhead cam V6 with variable timing, umbelievably smooth Auto and a 0-100km/h time of about 8seconds (7.5 for the manual) it's as quick as the CX turbo, MUCH quieter, rode nearly as well, and handled OK.

    How can Citroen compete nowadays other than have something 'different'. The competition actualy makes bloody good cars for less money. Even Crumydores, and Fowcans aren't a bad car anymore...

    I'll probably always buy french cars, but can see in the future I'll end up with an 'ordinary' car for the family car. (maybe they'll sell 1000's of C5 turbo diesels so I can still drive 'Cit', it'll just be bland...)

    seeya,

    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  12. #12
    zac
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    Sorry to offend GreenBlood, I should have known better than to post a post like that in the middle of such a passionate forum!

    I would have liked to keep Nissan japanese too . Is it ironic that I now own a Renault?!

    We did used to own one of those Citroen wagons with the adjustable suspension! Trying to think, it would have been late 70s or early 80s model. I never got to drive it though. The suspension used to go up and down just on its own, is that normal?

  13. #13
    zac
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    Sorry to post again, but I remember reading the other day that Peugeot are trying strongly to stay independent and hope the release of great new models will allow them to do that.

    So why do they announce that they 'should' join with Toymotor. Doesn't make sense!

    I am pretty sure I read it in the latest Wheels magazine (Mini on the front). I'll check when I get home.

  14. #14
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Peugeot have announced on numerous occasions that they plan to stay independent as far as company control is concerned.

    However, they have also said that they would like to do alot more joint projects with other manufacturers.

    This is why they signed an agreement with Ford for a joint Diesel engine factory.

    Joint projects with other manufactures is nothing new for Peugeot. The Douvrin engine factory that produced OHC 4s and V6s, was a joint project with Renault, and partially with Volvo also.

    Peugeot have shared their diesel engines with others for a long time. The Ford Sierra used a 2.3 litre Peugeot Diesel (as used in the 504 and 505). Mahindra and Tata have also used Peugeot Diesel engines for many years. Some of the latest Mahindra Jeeps even use the Peugeot BA10 5 speed gearbox, to replace the old 4 speed which is based on the 3 speed used in the original Kaiser-Jeep CJ-3B.

    Many other manufacturers have had joint projects and shared models with another manufacturer, without actually merging or ceding control to the other.

    I think Peugeot will have a joint model/s or project/s and possibly factory, with Toyota, but I doubt that they will merge. They are both too big and are wary of the merger problems recently experienced by other manufacturers.

    Dave
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  15. #15
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Its sad to think that this has to happen but thats progress, Toyota is already building a factory in northern France, to be running soon, expected to produce 200,000 cars per year for the European market. Product sharing is nothing new as we all know, Dave, the Ford Sierra/ P504 deisel motor, whos motor was it, it looks alot more Ford than Peugeot and it just has signs of Ford all over it, it doesn't look like a Peugeot or even French design.
    I once owned a Renault 9 that had a compliance plate on it that said it was made in South Africa by Leyland motor corporation so our beloved French cars arn't always what they seem.
    Seeya's,
    David.

    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

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  16. #16
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    A small number of 505s were made by Leyland in Sydney too, but they weren't up to scratch so JRA decided to focus on importing them instead.

    The 504 2.3 diesel engine was designed by Peugeot and is a slightly redesigned and enlarged version of the Indenor engine which first came out in about 1958 (built in their Indenor engine plant). They look like tractor engines, because that is what they are. Peugeot tractors use the same engine. I think those engines look quite at home in those Indian Jeeps. The are a simple low output engine, but they get the job done.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
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    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  17. #17
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Actually, thinking back on it, I'm not sure that there were "Peugeot" branded tractors per se, but I read that the main source of sales for the original Indenor diesel engine were for "industrial and agricultural use", so obviously it is the type of engine which you would see attached to generators and mounted in forklifts and tractors. This explains the non-crossflow siamesed exhaust port design.

    The 403 was the first Peugeot passenger car to use this engine.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  18. #18
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    Davemcbean mentioned the Leyland buiilt 505's. I had one of them, a 1981 GR. Of course after a cars been around for 20 years you stop worrying about shut lines and the quality of plastics ...

    As for Peugeot vowing to stay independent, sounds a bit like Alfa before the Fiat buyout, and Fiat before the GM buyout. Its all politicking and its probably designed to drive up the buying price. None us would really know what's going on. After all as much as we are passionate about our French cars, to the people who own the companies it all pretty much comes down to money.

    As for Citroen, they gave up true innovation many moons ago. Their current range of cars just try to look a little bit different but what have they really added, all they do is keep reinventing hydropneumatic suspension. I can't imagine that "Citroen", as opposed to PSA, has their own bunch of engineers who spend all day dreaming up wacky concepts in order to revolutionise motoring. In fact I am starting to wonder why Citroen even existed after the XM which was their last real "oddball".
    "Indecision is the key to flexibility" Anon.

  19. #19
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Just a thought, seeing as I used to work with these cunning little (careful now!!!)
    Remember how both Nissan & Toyota both worked with GMH? Hence we got the VL Commodore (Skyline donk) and the Holden Nova (gee looks just like a Camry)? I just wonder ????????? How do you think a Toyota Cillycar would go with a PSA 16V turbo in it?? And - apart from when Mazda copied the Perkins Diesel motor for the Mazda E & B 2200 series, have the Japs ever made a real good oil burner since? If they have-I haven't seen it.
    Waddya reckon??

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  20. #20
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Paul,
    I guess it is disapointing that Citroen are currently looking to build cars that have mass appeal, we know that at the end of the day it is a matter of $$$$. Don't dismiss the contribution that has been made and can be made in the future if the marque can make inroads into higher sales volumes. I for one have not driven the new C5 so reserve judgement, I'm not thrilled with the look of the cars exterior or interior, apparently the C6 will have closer links to the styling Citroen drivers are drawn to. It's hard to improve on perfection and Andre came close in the 50's, a good ID did most things better than anything around it then and for many years after. My 74 D is still very capable in traffic and on the open road, comfort yet to be surpassed, good economy, very respectable handling, great brakes ect. ect. yeah so it's a little noisy by modern standards but at least you know your alive.
    If we are waiting for Citroen to do something as amazing as the ID then I guess it's going to be a long wait, but it's interesting to see that we look to and expect that kind of quantum leap from Citroen not other manufacturers.
    Sorry did I get on my soapbox
    Enjoy your Pug
    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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