sometimes it pays to not do it yourself. too much motor oil. nill gearbox oil.
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  1. #1
    SMP addict pugjet's Avatar
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    sometimes it pays to not do it yourself. too much motor oil. nill gearbox oil.

    err hi guysh,

    not too sure where i should post this but here goes...

    its a long and complicated story but to cut a lon story short errr, ummm...

    *in your humble opinion how long can a gearbox operate safely without any oil?

    and...

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    *what damage can errr, filling the engine up with too much motor oil do?

    ummm, errr im just kinda asking for a friend cry mallet

    yes, yes... i know, i know cry whip
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  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If it's a froggy I can tell you that I went for months without gear oil, courtesy of a "professional."
    Too much oil in the crakcase depends on just how much was too much? The problem here is that if there's enough to leak out the mains seal it can get on the clutch friction plate & stuff the clutch. My BXs take 5 litres with a filter but having said that, if I were to put 5 litres without a filter, I doubt it would stuff anything.
    I had a guy recently overseas have a panic about low - no oil in a gearbox (again courtesy of a 'professional') and I suggested he refill with Castrol EMS80 with 125ml of Nulon G70 in his oil. He did & reckons it's absolutely perfect.
    All you can do is drain the oil in the donk back to where it should be & use some additive to the gear oil. Don't put additive in the engine oil though.
    If it's all still going OK, sleep easy; it's froggy, she'll be right. dance

    Alan S cheers!
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    We had a Jeep Cherokee, and after 60,000km or so it developed faulty hydralic lifters. The dealer said its a big job and quoted $3,800 for replacing them. However as warranty has just ran out Chrysler Aus agreed to pick up the tab. But after 1 week nothing has changed, really doubt they had ever done anything.

    Coincidentally, I have "cought" them overfiling the crank by around 1 - 1.5L, 3 services in a row, so I reckon the car had almost always been running with too much oil in the engine.

    The faulty lifters may or may not be related to too much oil, but according to Haynes and other manuals, too much oil will cause oil foaming in places including the lifter. Leading to poor lubrication and overheating, thus extra wear/damage in the long term. (Please correct me if I am wrong..)

    Like Alan said, if it's still going ok, take care of her from now on and she'll be right.

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Alan S:
    Don't put additive in the engine oil though.
    Hi Alan,
    BTW would it be Ok to use engine flush before oil change, with an old dirty engine? Or it's best not to?

    thanks

    rc

    <small>[ 14 October 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: rc968 ]</small>

  5. #5
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i use an oil flush in mine around every 2nd to 3rd oil change just to make sure all the little galleries are kept clean

    i have also heard of good mechanics doing this as well

    not many dealers do though and we all know why that is
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  6. #6
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I'd be a bit cautious on using it on an "old dirty engine" as sometimes you can flush muck out of places you really don't want to flush muck out of; like behind oil rings and off valve stems.
    If however the engine is not too bad as far as miles & internal carbon/sludge build up, then it can do more good that harm by keeping the galleys & passageways nice & clean.
    We've just done a 16V motor and it was choked in some of the galleys with grit. However, it was by using a better grade oil & giving it a good hard run that it suddenly started absolutely drinking oil which brought to the surface the dodgy oil ring on one cylinder. Run on say 25W-60 it would possibly still be going as it was.
    Flushing is OK in the right circumstances, however, I don't think ageing motors already sludged are the right circumstances.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    My stepson's first car was a 200B... I went away for the weekend and told him to top up the oil (it was an old engine and used a fair bit) before he went too far.

    When I got back I heard tales of immense clouds of smoke, rattles from the engine, the whole lot!

    "Did you top up the oil?" I asked. "Well, I put it all in and it still wasn't full..."

    Classic case of foaming, the rods dipping into the oil as the crank rotates, whipping the oil like a pastrycook does cream. Air through the oil pump, bearings not happy, overflowing oil gets past rings etc, plenty smoke.

    But one thing I'd like to ask... the gearbox here wasn't an auto, was it?

    Otherwise, I'd say just top it up and drive on...

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Thanks Alan for your advice. Not sure how sludged the engine is at the moment, but I found out that it has been flushed about 30,000km before, using off the shelf engine flush (STP brand). I will be cautious about it.

    Thanks again.

    <small>[ 15 October 2003, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: rc968 ]</small>

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i've been doing it from not long after the car was new
    the oil comes out nearly as clean as it went in
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  10. #10
    SMP addict pugjet's Avatar
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    hello oh-great-way-goodlooking-french car gods,

    thank you for posting your comments - its a comfort to my dented ego.

    considering ive got nothin better to do tonight, i may as well fess up and give u the story.

    it was a frign bad day.

    in the morning my father and i decided to drain the motor oil and replace the oil filter (weve done it heaps of times b4). topped it up. we wondered why chloe (thats ma 205) only required a lil bit of motor oil... we thought nothing of it.

    anyways, after doing so i headed off. whilst driving every time i accelerated i could hear a whining noise. arrived home two hours later, and decided to eat and make a mess at home. i mentioned the noise to my father and he thought it was unusual too, but thought "we'd see how things go in the next coupla days".

    later, got a call from a mate to meet up. so i made myself pretty and started the car - frign smoke bellowed from her exhaust upon start up! eek!

    decided to call a family friend - hes a motor mechanic by trade.

    ok... hes come over. hes popped the bonnet. the engine bay was covered in oil! it was sprayed with motor oil and says its from the dipstick! hes checked the dipstick! yup... too much oil! actually about 6 1/2 litres! hes then asked us which nut we removed to drain the motor oil... we pointed," this one ey?".

    hes called us d!ckheads and says, " stupid! youve drained the gearbox oil instead! mallet duh! so obviously there was nill gearbox oil. cry

    from there, we ended up replacing the spark plugs coz they "drowned", refilled the gearbox oil, drained the motor oil and topped up to required level.

    talk about idiots whistle mallet

    and this is why i asked the questions in ma first post.

    the mechanic friend says that it isnt unusual for a gearbox to run safely for up to 6 or so hours (i ran mine for up to 2 hours). everything seems to be aok. no slipping of the gears. no crunching, no unusual noises, etc.

    guess i can consider myself lucky... if Alan s can run a froggy for 6 months without gearbox oil, 2 hrs isnt too bad, ey?

    how bout the engine? think it had about 6 1/2 litres and was enuff to spray the engine bay with lotsa oil when running. have i done damage to it by over-filling it with oil? it seems to run (now) as great as it did prior to the ill-fated change.

    be great to read more comments and advice.

    and yup, i didnt think itd get any worse.

    ta,

    pugjet

    P>S. oh yeah, whilst waiting for our mechanic friend, my father and i decided to drive down to the local k-mart to get consumables. we arrived back to the carpark to find his beloved sitrohen t-boned by an xr6 (without driver) . neways... security cameras caught the whole incident on camera, cops were called in hes car was towed and insurance was notified. the sitrohen is gettn panels replaced and sprayed.

    all in all it was a sh!t of a day.

    the only consilation was that i won a 50 dollar fuel voucher from the local servo. roll_lau

    and yeah, i do ramble.
    current frogs :
    '94 s3 alpine 205GTi

    daily ding magnet: '98 1.8 16v citroen xsara


    previous frogs:

    88 S1 205GTi
    '95 306S16


    gimme corners. . .


  11. #11
    SMP addict pugjet's Avatar
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    hi rambo, alan, ray, rc968 and to anyone else who might know wink , whats this talk about an engine flush?

    what do ya means about that? is it like a regular oil change? please explain.

    oh yeah, another thing, this mechanic friend said that the smoke that was bellowing from the exhaust on start up was burn off from excess oil on/in/near engine and from oil drenched spark plugs... and should dissapate in a few days... is this right?

    thanks again blush
    current frogs :
    '94 s3 alpine 205GTi

    daily ding magnet: '98 1.8 16v citroen xsara


    previous frogs:

    88 S1 205GTi
    '95 306S16


    gimme corners. . .


  12. #12
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yeah, soon you'll be able to pretend it never happened...

    But you do have the opportunity to learn from the experience.

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    rc968:
    We had a Jeep Cherokee, and after 60,000km or so it developed faulty hydralic lifters. The dealer said its a big job and quoted $3,800 for replacing them. However as warranty has just ran out Chrysler Aus agreed to pick up the tab. But after 1 week nothing has changed, really doubt they had ever done anything.

    Coincidentally, I have "cought" them overfiling the crank by around 1 - 1.5L, 3 services in a row, so I reckon the car had almost always been running with too much oil in the engine.

    The faulty lifters may or may not be related to too much oil, but according to Haynes and other manuals, too much oil will cause oil foaming in places including the lifter. Leading to poor lubrication and overheating, thus extra wear/damage in the long term. (Please correct me if I am wrong..)

    Like Alan said, if it's still going ok, take care of her from now on and she'll be right.
    I read somewhere......

    The first run of LS1 powered commodores had the incorrect dipstick markings (for the locally fitted sump, I guess).....
    Holden quickly worked out that under hard acceleration the engines missed their oil pickup....
    The solution (before the replacement, with correctly marked dipsticks) was to "overfill" the engine with oil (not sure on amounts)....probably didn't hurt the early LS1 oil burning issues anyway

    I don't know what the deal is with jeep, only suggesting that it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the overfilling was intentional....

    Dealers aren't always the enemy, it's often in their best interests that their cars last the warranty period

  14. #14
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    early 604's had the same trouble and so an extra .5l of oil was always put in them
    this is a very well kept secret straight from renault australia back in the late 70's

    it was either under hard acceleration or cornering i can't recall which now but as a safety measure they always added a little more oil to the sump
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    DTwo:
    [I read somewhere......

    The first run of LS1 powered commodores had the incorrect dipstick markings (for the locally fitted sump, I guess).....
    Holden quickly worked out that under hard acceleration the engines missed their oil pickup....
    The solution (before the replacement, with correctly marked dipsticks) was to "overfill" the engine with oil (not sure on amounts)....probably didn't hurt the early LS1 oil burning issues anyway

    I don't know what the deal is with jeep, only suggesting that it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the overfilling was intentional....

    Dealers aren't always the enemy, it's often in their best interests that their cars last the warranty period D [/QB]
    Yeah, it was as a result of fitting smaller sumps to the Oz spec motors, which not only resulted in the dipstick debacle, but means the engines ran a lot hotter due to less oil in the sump for cooling.... mallet
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    What a great day Pugjet!! . Dont worry 'bout the ego, it will recover and I'm sure many of us have equally silly stories up our sleeve

    I think the only damage that engine might suffer from an over fill is bent rods if its really overfilled and its revved like buggery - might be a myth though. If its running OK now, all is good - same goes for the gearbox. I'd hold off on additives to the gearbox until you need them. If upon application of a good quality factory specified oil it behaves itself and doesnt wine, leavie it alone. Additives can sometimes make synchros do odd things.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  17. #17
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    .....I think the only damage that engine might suffer from an over fill is bent rods if its really overfilled and its revved like buggery - might be a myth though.
    Definitely a myth... just froths up the oil and leads to starved bearings.

    If its running OK now, all is good - same goes for the gearbox. I'd hold off on additives to the gearbox until you need them. If upon application of a good quality factory specified oil it behaves itself and doesnt wine, leavie it alone. Additives can sometimes make synchros do odd things.
    I'd agree with that... no whining, no problem. Some whining? Then you live with it...

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Not a manual gearbox, but on my to Perth, I put an additive in my auto trans to try to cure a shifting problem (that turned out to be a weak electrical connector on the speed sensor). When I went to a auto trans shop to ask advice (one that was reccomended as knowing about froggy autos) he said very bad move - all they do is soften and swell rubber seals and end up doing a lot of damage when the seals let go early. Starting to think all my auto box may really need is new internal seals....

    I now figure if the engineers spending countless hours and a lot of Francs on development didnt put additves in the lubricants, they probably shouldnt be there ever!! (except maybe as a "get you home" emergency fix, but certainly not long term)
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  19. #19
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I wouldn't touch engine additives for thousands of good reasons, but gearbox ones I started using after hearing nothing but positive reports from owners here (aussiefrogs) and other boards as well as owners.
    The argument about the engineers not using I can agree with until it's taken into consideration that when designed, engineers at car plants and scientists at oil companies make no allowance for wear & tear and contaminents introduced by lack of routine servicing. Their calculations are based on regular routine oil changes but I wonder how many on this board can tell me how often their gear oil should be changed and when theirs was last done? Anyone who's ever driven any of our cars before and after the boxes have been treated wouldn't argue.
    By the same token, I can't believe that there would be a universal additive for Auto transmissions. ATF comes in a multitude of types and has some very weird characteristics built into it. I have a CX C-matic that is supposed to run on Total "Fluide T" anybody ever seen that at a servo? I get away by using Castrol TQF. I can't use Dexron 3 because those who have tried it finds it causes the car to jam in gear; why? because it's got friction enhancers in it to help the bands to grab, so imagine adding anything to that which may help reduce friction eek! cry eek! and that is only 3 of I suppose a dozen different types of ATF.
    The reason I suggested the additive is that if there's any bits of metal swimming around in there it would be nice to have something in there to counteract the potential damage they could cause, but Haakon mate, unless someone has developed an additive for autos, I'd reckon your transmission didn't die; you could have murdered it. mallet mallet

    Alan S cheers!
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Alan S
    [unless someone has developed an additive for autos, I'd reckon your transmission didn't die; you could have murdered it. mallet mallet

    Alan S cheers! [/QB]
    This was a specific ATF additive, designed to "stop leaks and restore hydraulic pressure". I should have known better.
    And, yes, I probably did murder my trans - me and the previous owners who thought the dipstick was for decoration and ATF was supposed to be black and lumpy mallet
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  21. #21
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    i used nulon in a 604 auto and it worked extremely well and kept on working well for a number of years
    it was either that or the box needed an overhaul as it was slow picking drive and reverse which is a well known fault in 604 boxes
    it is about the only time i have ever had praise for an auto additive
    i also used an additive in a 5spd commode i had which was getting pretty sad and it also worked a treat and the more i drove it the better it got
    but i must say i have only ever used nulon
    i also do throw a bit of redex in the tank once in a while
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  22. #22
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Haakon,

    You've got me in; what brand makes an auto tranny additive?

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Alan S:
    Haakon,

    You've got me in; what brand makes an auto tranny additive?

    Alan S
    Most of 'em, Nulon, redix (or something), mobil, shell, BP Etc and I used a Valvoline one.

    <small>[ 15 October 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Haakon ]</small>
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger!
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    DTwo:

    I don't know what the deal is with jeep, only suggesting that it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the overfilling was intentional....

    Dealers aren't always the enemy, it's often in their best interests that their cars last the warranty period
    I fully agree with you there.
    That's why at the time I thought the dealer would know better than me, so I asked, but they apologized about overfilling, and that's also kind of why they agreed to fix the engine after warranty expired.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger!
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    pugjet:
    hi rambo, alan, ray, rc968 and to anyone else who might know wink , whats this talk about an engine flush?

    what do ya means about that? is it like a regular oil change? please explain.

    thanks again blush
    Engine flush is adding some cleaning detergents (solvent type I think) to the old oil in the engine that is going to be drained. Run the engine (but not drive) for 15 min or so before draining. To clean the inside of engine where oil flows, "flush" out sludges and varnishes etc.

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