Car of The Year
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  1. #1
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Car of The Year

    This morning on the Channel 9 today show they had Sammy Lukis doing the weather as always and she was in Melbourne checking out the contenders for the Car of The Year.

    They showed the Renault Clio and They showed the old R8 also.

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    Maybe the winner wil be the Laguna Hopefully.. renault_

  2. #2
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    Well at the end of the show they had a peak behind the black curtains and showed the car hidden under some tarps so you could make out the rough shape, and it was a similar size and shape to the Laguna. It could have been a Falcon, or a BMW or a Mazda 6, but the shortness of the "boot" and angle of the rear window reminded me more of the Laguna, but we'll wait and see.

    It's definitely not one of the smaller cars.

    Dave

    <small>[ 26 November 2002, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: fiveohs ]</small>

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Everyone seems hot on the Mazda 6, wouldn't suprise me.

    That design is going to date quickly I think...
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  4. #4
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    It will be interesting to see wont it?
    Maybe another Renault....

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    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Styling wise the 6 is hardly special,
    The "lexus" style tail lights are awful....

    It's interesting that the head of the team that designed the Mazda 6, is a big Citroen fan and apparently drives a Xantia....
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 05:15 AM.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Is it the BA Falcon?

    <a href="http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/news/blankstoryls.asp?ID=4541" target="_blank">http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/news/blankstoryls.asp?ID=4541</a>

    Or do I have the wrong awards?
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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Hmmm, it’s been a long time (if ever) since the COTY was awarded purely on merit.
    I’d have my money (if I had any) on the BA Falcon. Not because it’s the best of the bunch but it’s been a long time since Ford had any serious contenders and because the local industry is about due for another of ‘we make cars equal to the world’s best’ bullshit.

    Ren
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  8. #8
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    It has to be the Falcon, too much advertising revenue to be lost without it. Also it is like V8 Supercars, there has to be arity in there somewhere!

    Simon
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  9. #9
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    In my opinion the BA Falcon deserves the car of the year award. Finally the accountants were told to sit down and shut up and the engineers got to implement all the stuff on the car that they've been wanting to do for the past ten years.

    Things I don't like about the new Falcon:

    -fuel economy
    -steering is probably still a bit too light (but heavier than many other cars)
    -that chrome edging on the bottom of the tailights
    -I'm not too keen on cars that big (but that's what the market wants).

    Yes there's been some crap cars made in Australia (including many Falcons, particularly the AU), but the BA Falcon isn't one of them.

    Yes the Mazda 6, Laguna, etc are excellent but they're not the great leap forward in their size and price class that the BA is in its.

    Dave

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    These were the other cars in the running...

    BMW 7 Series
    Ford Focus
    Ford BA Falcon
    Holden Monaro / HSV Coupe
    Honda Jazz
    Honda CR-V
    Hyundai Getz
    Hyundai Tiburon
    Lexus ES300
    Mazda 6
    Mercedes-Benz CLK
    Mercedes-Benz E-class
    Mercedes-Benz SL
    Mini
    Peugeot 206CC
    Peugeot 307
    Range Rover
    Renault Clio
    Renault Laguna
    Saab 9-3
    Subaru Forester
    Toyota Camry
    Volkswagen Polo
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    Fellow Frogger! billtran's Avatar
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    fiveohs:
    In my opinion the BA Falcon deserves the car of the year award. Finally the accountants were told to sit down and shut up and the engineers got to implement all the stuff on the car that they've been wanting to do for the past ten years.

    Things I don't like about the new Falcon:

    -fuel economy
    -steering is probably still a bit too light (but heavier than many other cars)
    -that chrome edging on the bottom of the tailights
    -I'm not too keen on cars that big (but that's what the market wants).

    Yes there's been some crap cars made in Australia (including many Falcons, particularly the AU), but the BA Falcon isn't one of them.

    Yes the Mazda 6, Laguna, etc are excellent but they're not the great leap forward in their size and price class that the BA is in its.

    Dave
    My goodness Dave! I never thought I'd ever imagine you giving praise to a Foulcan. However, this is where we diverge. I think the Foulcan is least worthy of the COTY along with the new Crummydore. It is simply the wrong kind of car for this age (especially in Sydney or Melbourne). It is a dinosaur - big, heavy, fuel inefficient, lousy build quality and STILL ugly (then again Foulcans have always been ugly so perhaps this is continuing the tradition?). The Falcons and Commodores of this world should follow the way of the dinosaur and simply die out.

    I agree with Ren Tin Tin, it isn't worthy but it will probably win the COTY anyway. To much bribery - oops - advertising revenue is at stake here.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    There are worse outcomes than a Falcon winning the COTY, it could be a Pajero, Landcruiser,etc., or would that be Truck of the Year.

    Ren
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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Well, there is a "Truck of the year" in the USA, so as with all these things, I imagine we'll have that soon enough.

    This years winner was the "Chevrolet Trailblazer"

    This has got to be the "best" version:

    "TRAILBLAZER EXT: THE NORTH FACE EDITION"

    Sounds like a special DVD release of a movie to me.

    You get embroidered headrests and an interesting combination of leather & nylon seats. I'm not joking!
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  14. #14
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    billtran:
    It is simply the wrong kind of car for this age (especially in Sydney or Melbourne). It is a dinosaur - big, heavy, fuel inefficient, .
    A far as out of date technologically goes, anything that doesn't use regenerative braking and hybrid or fuel cell technology has been a dinosaur for many years (if not decades). If the accountants weren't always getting their way we would have had these things 30 years ago, as they're not exactly new technologies either.

    I find it amusing when people refer to WRX's and the like as "high-tech", because I know that on the scale of all the technology we have available they are closer to the old carby, live rear axle cars, than to what we are capable of, but that's not to criticise them. It's just that it takes many years to update technologies when you're dealing with large scale manufacturing.

    So, in short to call any car "out of date" is laughable, because all but very few are.

    But then again I'm one of these people who is used to thinking of things on the evolutionary/geological/astronomical time scale, so in my opinion the industrial revolution has only just started!

    Dave

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    I hope something froggy wins, but i agree that lookig at past records it ill be Falcon, great interior/comfort/ergonomics!, but sadly barge like dynamics, biggest leap from previous models ever...
    give it to the froggy!!!!!!!!!!!
    ... ptui!

  16. #16
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Well the "chooktin" got it so you can imagine the amount of advertising revenue that should generate. (Which is what this is all about.)
    They should have got that twit to do the test drive that Adrian & I saw a couple of Saturdays ago who managed to spin one out from a standing start & ended up in a ditch.
    The biggest excitement for all concerned seemed to be that it was the first time in 36 years since F*#d last won it with.....wait for it....wait for it....the bloody XR eek! eek! which just about says it all. The XP I could understand; the GTHO phase 3 shaker I could understand but the XR!!!!! roll_lau roll_lau roll_lau
    I mean, fair suck of the sav...that'd be enough to put any buyer off. mallet

    Alan S
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  17. #17
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    Falcon won, was a nice event at Federation Square with Eddie McGuire doing the show. Nice crowd too.

    I've got no real problem with the Falcon winning. I did have a problem with the Barina winning last year.

    We had a presentation from a Ford (PCCV member) engineer at our last PCCV meeting, which was very interesting. I do have a handful of issues with the BA, but I believe it's a good car. Not outstanding, but very good. I believe, for the money, its one of the best value cars in the world, and love it or hate it, I think it's great to see that our car industry can produce such products. Getting into a new Toyota Camry makes you realise how far quality has gone in this country over the years.

    In regards to the Frogs. I couldn't see the 206CC winning it, nor the 307 (and Wheels has never loved it). The 206CC is good value, but flawed - those rear seats should be made illegal. The Clio didn't deserve it, nor did the Laguna - the Laguna is a good car and good value, but not an outstanding one. One only needs to look at how it fares in Europe.

    Out of interest,

    The Car of the 70s - Honda Accord
    The Car of the 80s - Mazda MX5
    The Car of the 90s - Lexus LS400.

    I would say out of the three above, I most agree with the LS400 - absolutely for me. I still remember when it came out, it did really slap the Germans in the face. There probably aren't too many Lexus fans here, and I can't claim to be one, but I couldn't help but nod my head to that award.

    Cheers,

    Justin

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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    RE aussie technology.....
    australian built cars have a long way to go before they catch the japs and the euros....
    just look at the various power outputs per litre and thiings become very clear...hell the mi 16 was putting out 130 kw out of 2 litres a decade ago....the 30 year old commmmodorree motor is only delivering 155 kw with 3.8litres ...its just laughable....and didn t the falcon stationwagon ride on leaf springs up to only a few years ago....my old merc had twin cams back in 75...falcon gets them in 2002...hhee..what are their plans for the v8...the fact is that the australian car manufacturers will only deliver the basics to the australian consumer....at max cost....if u want high tech engines, chassis,suspension etc they know they can not compete with the europeans...eg..the old holden 6 was milked for all its worth for more than 20 years (same block)then they had to turn to nissan and finally settled on the old buick motor...which unfamiliar to the aussies apeared as fresh technology.....especially if u call it ECOTECH....in regards to the falcon....well considering how bad the old car was it wouldnot have been to hard to better it with some 1980s euro/jap technology....

  19. #19
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Consider the tasks that these cars have to do before you knock them.

    Secondly, ever heard the point "technology for technology's sake"?

    Finally, I hardly see how the BA Falcon's 6 or Control Blade is 80's Japanese/European technology. There are features in that car that are more modern than what is coming out of comparable products from Europe or Japan.

    Although, I ahve to say that the Commodore's IRS was a bloody joke. The engine is pretty tired, but at the same time delivers reasonable fuel economy given its situation. Adding more technology to the car to get more power - well, last time I checked, you aren't going to find too many people finding the car wanting for power.

    Finally, you can't say that everything coming out of Europe is space age. Look at the simple 1.4 lump in the 206 with its 55kW. No DOHC, 16V there. Even worse is that fact that VW was selling the Polo two years ago with a 1.6 lump that made 55kW.

    In regards to the comparison with the Merc and its twincams. In relative terms, how much did a Merc cost compared to a Falcon?

    It's a ridiculous comparison.

    The notion that Australian manufacturers deliver old technology at the highest possible cost is a load of utter crud. Consider the size of the market for cars like Falcon and Commodore. Maybe that's why they don't incorporate S-Class technology for $35k.

    Maybe they could if they were the size of a Daewoo Matiz. There is that Benz, the A-Class after all.

    Cheers,

    Justin

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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    justin...i am not knocking the aussie cars... i m just saying that they have a long way to go to catch the euros...and u r very mistaken about the aussie markets ..remember ford is more aussie than holden...these companies are not australian owned ..we are talking about multibillion dollar companies and what they see fit for the australians...if u diasgree on what they can deliver plaese explain on the issue of HOLDEN: WHO makes the BARINA, ASTRA,VECTRA, FRONTERA etc ON the issue of FORD: festiva, laser, etc....
    and remeber the oldies:mavericks,novas,corsairs,...rebadged cars ...how many people bought the lexcen....
    in reg. to power outputs...i am not comparing whats avilable to WHATS possible...the 55kw motor is an economy engine designed for euro markets and high cost of fuel..my 205 gti in euro spec delivers 93 kw in aussie only 76kw...THERE are reasons and explenations for everything,,,ALL i m saying is that a 3.8 should deliver more power and BETTER fuel economy than it does,,,and the technology has been available for over 3 decades now...yes my old merc was dearer than the falcon back than...but if toyota,nissan,honda and many others could have built multivalve -multicam motors back in the eighties why wasnt that technology made available to us via their (FORD/GMH)international arms.....instead if u wanted a twin cam FORD BLOCK six...u had to go to a guy in queensland (a privateer )who was adapting jag heads since the early eighties....in regards to suspension and shassis dynamics...well good on ford...but the australian roads do deserve an australian flavoured suspension chassis and tyres...also u really need to look at the price of new cars...ie calais,ltd,monaro,hsv to start comparing them to mercs and beemers..not to mention the quality of components or the fact that UPPER class europeans or japs CARRY UPPER CLASS engines....if u think having a VN engine in a 2002 coupe (monaro) is advancement than ,as much as i agree with a lot of what u have said,u are clueless of whats trully out there.....

  21. #21
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    Justin, I'm a Lexus fan. I got a Cressida because i thought it was the closest thing i could get to a reliable BMW inline 6. Lexus have a brand identity problem (all there cars look far too different from one another, no common theme). But Lexus was the only luxo jap brand to last (remember Eunos, Xedos?), largely because Toyota has VERY deep pockets.
    Tim

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  22. #22
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    sorry i just read dino's post, and would like to congratulate him on managing to miss the point completely :p :p

    If you keep going on like this you might end up with me going on a lengthy rant about THE MARKET! and you dont want that, trust me!
    Tim

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  23. #23
    nJm
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    No, please don't get Tim started on the Market!

    Back to getting more power out of a 3.8 & 4.0L family car engines - personally I don't think your average family car needs more than 160kw. It is just getting silly - there is no way to use this power in Australia (well, except for the NT, but how many Monaro owners are gonna take their shining new 2 door Commodore to the dustiest place in the world??). If we do start to use high technology, efficient engines then the Commodore and Falcon could probably make extremely adequate progress with something between 2.8L and 3.2L. At the low end we have the Peugeot/Citroen 3L V6 with approx 157kw, but there is then the BMW 3L from the x30i's which have a whopping 170kw.

    However, the Market isn't interested in small engines - Australians have been fed large capacity engines for too long now that that is all we expect. If the average holden buyer is told their new commodore has more power from a 3L than the current 3.8L I'm sure they wouldn't believe them and go buy a nice fuel efficient 5.7L V8
    Nick
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  24. #24
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I agree with Justin on nearly every point made. Just in response to Dino's criticism of the power outputs out of a strokey 4L in line 6, well, you're never going to get high power outputs out of an inline SOHC 2 valve per cyclinder engine. The engine was all about torque, as Australians appear to like RWDs that can tow...whether they do or not is irrelevant. They don't want high revving engines, they like lazy, effortless torque in their cars...hence the love for the V8.

    From all reports that new twin cam, 4 valve per cyclinder head they've thrown on top of the old block is great. I can't wait to drive it. The comparisons with the world's best inline 6s have already been made. I think it's great that the local industry can still manage to maintain it's own engines in the new 6 and XR8 V8 (Ford is the only one, Holden are using an old Buick block and a Chev engine, Toyota/Mitsu are locally tuned Japanese engines). For what it is, it is a good car, and it is a significant step forward in locally built cars, let alone WW AFFORDABLE RWD cars. This is the first RWD car in the Ford empire to have that control balde IRS. It's a proven effective rear setup, with Saab copying it on the new 9-3.

    If it was French, would you be bagging it?

    As Justin said, the 307 is a good car but is it significantly outstanding in it's class? Is it THAT much better than Golf? No, so right away it struggles to win Wheel's COTY. I'd throw Focus in the same boat, maybe if we got Focus 4 years ago, then it would've won. 206CC is too specialised, and not as fun as something like an MX5. Laguna? Well is it better than 406? Wheels did a comparison with 406 and Laguna recently and 406 came out above it, as I recall. There's no way it was ever going to win.

    I'd say the Clio would've been close, and the Mazda6 though. I'll try and pick up the issue today
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  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    nJm:
    No, please don't get Tim started on the Market!

    Back to getting more power out of a 3.8 & 4.0L family car engines - personally I don't think your average family car needs more than 160kw. It is just getting silly - there is no way to use this power in Australia (well, except for the NT, but how many Monaro owners are gonna take their shining new 2 door Commodore to the dustiest place in the world??). If we do start to use high technology, efficient engines then the Commodore and Falcon could probably make extremely adequate progress with something between 2.8L and 3.2L. At the low end we have the Peugeot/Citroen 3L V6 with approx 157kw, but there is then the BMW 3L from the x30i's which have a whopping 170kw.

    However, the Market isn't interested in small engines - Australians have been fed large capacity engines for too long now that that is all we expect. If the average holden buyer is told their new commodore has more power from a 3L than the current 3.8L I'm sure they wouldn't believe them and go buy a nice fuel efficient 5.7L V8
    It's all about torque....

    The reason they need all the torque is because of the size/weight of the cars.......remember the new foolcan is 1700kg eek! ! in it's base model

    Ultimately the easiest way to get lazy low RPM torque is from capacity rather than technology....there's no point having a 250kw turbo double overhead hubcap 2.5lt 4cyl in a 1.7 tonne car....it would be lethargic at low rpm, and wouldn't be a very good match for an auto

    The LS1 (5.7) is actually a pretty efficient engine....and really when you think about it, powerwise the commondoor with LS1 would have to be in the top 10% or so of "mass" produced cars in the world....there aren't too many BMW engines pumping out 255kw from the factory or 300kw.....
    (there aren't too many 5.7lt BMW engines either, but we won't go there )

    <small>[ 27 November 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: DTwo ]</small>
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 05:15 AM.

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