Torque spanners
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 3 123 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 51

Thread: Torque spanners

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Victoria
    Posts
    1,001

    Torque spanners

    How necessary is it to tighten up bolts to the "correct" torque? I've got an old torque spanner hanging around in the garage but I've never used it.

    Advertisement


    I've always just done up bolts until they "feel right", and I've never really heard of anyone using them lately, except in American movies - "hand me that torque wrench would you..."

    Cheers,
    Richard
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Wendouree Vic. Aust
    Posts
    2,436
    I religously Torque down all Head & Bearing bolts, as well as Crankshaft pulley bolt,and Half shaft/hub bolts. The rest are done by feel 30 odd years had made that FEEL reasonably accurate.
    cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    8,923
    On alloy motors such as the Mi16/BX16V it would be a very brave mechanic who did anything too major just judging on feel, particularly spannering a head down and more so if he was imbibing a drop of the ol' John Barleycorn at the time. cry mallet a_drink

    Alan S cheers!
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Castle Hill, Sydney
    Posts
    7,396
    The crankshaft pulley on early XU9 engines is particularly important to get right. Get it wrong and the oil pump stops. And how about 200Nm for a driveshaft/hub nut? Too hard to guess.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  5. #5
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    4,917
    It seems to me after owning 3 french cars that the french love torque screws for stuff on their cars... 2_cents

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Like some others, I'm religious about using the torque wrench on heads, big ends and main bearings. Occasionally there are other things that seem to need care and I use it with them too...

    The one bolt that seems to me to be in big danger otherwise is the one (there are two, actually...) that retain the rocker cover of the XN engines. I've had one break... to get the broken end out finished up being too hard. That makes it virtually a head-off job, certainly an engine out job, to replace the thing... and without replacement there's oil everywhere!

    I might in future change these to 8mm bolts instead of 6mm on my own cars. Maybe...

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,630
    There are some things that simply HAVE to be torqued right.

    Most of them fit into particular categories:

    Major engine assembly fasteners

    Head bolts are an obvious one, though the procedures for this these days often involve angle guages and the like rather than torque wrenchs. Bearing caps, crankshaft end nuts/harmonic balancers and the like too. I usually torque rocker arm retaining nuts too. Don't like uneven stresses in the head.

    Things that hold in oil (especially if they are easily deformed).

    I always torque rocker cover retaining fasteners (too tight can be as bad as too loose with these), sump pan nuts (although this matters less these days with modern sealants I generally prefer to use old fashioned things like aircraft gasket goo, at least on older vehicles), fasterners that hold together transmission cases, rear exles etc.

    Things that rotate fast.

    Wheel bearing nuts are an obvious one (another one where too tight can be catastrpohic), but alternator shaft nuts are another.

    Things my life depends on

    Many suspension components and brake retaining fasteners.

    Personally I like using good torque wrenchs. They have a nice feel to them and leave you feeling "secure" about the work you've been doing. Make you concentrate too.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 02 September 2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, Peugeot 406 ST (deadish), Peugeot 307 XSE, - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Victoria
    Posts
    1,001
    Thanks for the responses. The next time I do up a bolt I might give the torque wrench a go. In the past I have been guilty of snapping a few bolts, thankfully not major ones like head bolts though eek! . I was aware that these needed to be done up with care but head bolts are things that I wouldn't really be working on anyway with my limited knowledge at the moment.

    Me and my dad had a hell of a time when I stupidly tightened a transmission sump pan bolt as tight as I could get it (long after the gasket had already sealed) and snapped it off flush with surface of the transmission. The EZ-out we used to try get it out also snapped inside the bolt, and since that was made of some sort of hardened steel, the whole mess couldn't be drilled out. We eventually solved the problem by tapping another hole next to the original one.

    I then proceeded to tighten up one of the banjo bolts that join the fluid cooler pipes to the transmission, and yep, I snapped that too...
    mallet moon spanner

    I think I better find that torque wrench.

    Cheers,
    Richard
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    Sounds like you have to cut all your spanners in half...

    You don't need to tighten them that much. Just so they don't come undone.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,630
    I might be wrong, Richard, but I have a sneaking suspicion you were using a socket wrench on those sump bolts. People sometimes wonder why others still use tube spanners in situations where a socket wrench will do the job. The answer is leaverage.

    You can put a lot more force than you ought to on a 10mm bolt head with a 30 centimetre long socket wrench. A hell of a lot more than you exert with a 15cm long spanner or tube spanner tommy bar. Its certainly way, way too easy to go beyond the 10 Nm or 7 lb ft that you are meant to use on a sump bolt on a 505!

    Just by the way, overtightening sump bolts is more likely to cause leaks than prevent them. You simply end up stuffing the gasket and distorting the sump pan.

    Like Ray says, if you don't use a good torque wrench, use something short on small nuts and bolts.

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, Peugeot 406 ST (deadish), Peugeot 307 XSE, - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Burpengary and Murrumburrah, Qld and NSW
    Posts
    9,223
    I'm just wondering if Richard should do a course working on Datsuns and Toymotors?

    The bolts on Peugeots are incredibly strong... and compared to Japanese bolts of the same size they cop a heap of tension that would have broken the Jap one twice over.

    This isn't the case with some special bolts, of course... like the head bolts and those holding down rocker gear (generally), big end or main bearing bolts are also good gear.

    But you get around the rest of the cars, if there's an 8mm bolt anywhere I'll just about guarantee you can break it.

    In almost forty years, I think I've broken about six bolts on Peugeots. One was a clutch retaining 8mm bolt on a 203 engine, I'll never forget it, the first one I broke after already having fiddled with Pugs for five or six years. Some of the others were (and this will ring bells with everyone, I think) bolts I've been unscrewing from the ends of the bumpers.

    Yeah, rusted in, lean on them severely, bang!

    This is why the rocker cover bolt that broke somewhat surprised me...

    Completely agree with the business about overtightening sumps etc. The cork gaskets squeeze out and split down the middle, that does them no good at all.

    On the other hand, big end bolts on XN engines don't feel right to me at the recommended 30ft/lbs... I give them a little more... about 33ft/lbs.

    As for the 'torque to yield' head bolts on later model engines, they've lost me! What happens if you do re-use these? Surely you can't count on them giving the right tension if they've already had one stretch?

  12. #12
    nJm
    nJm is offline
    Guru nJm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,930
    What can happen if you tighten the rocker cover too much? I don't have a torque wrench, and when I replaced the rocker cover on my XN I used my socket set (no doubt over tightening it). I should probably go and buy a torque wrench... shy
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,244
    Guys,

    there's only two rules you need to follow:

    1. If it breaks, that was to tight.
    2. If it falls out, that was to loose.

    What else do you need to know mallet roll_lau moon 2_cents

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,630
    nJm:
    What can happen if you tighten the rocker cover too much? I don't have a torque wrench, and when I replaced the rocker cover on my XN I used my socket set (no doubt over tightening it). I should probably go and buy a torque wrench... shy
    Much the same , Nick. You reduce the effectiveness of the gasket and risk breaking or distorting something (though its probably not quite as vulnerable as some of the earlier Peugeots which used studs rather than bolts to secure the cover.) Again, about 10 Nm or 7 lb ft is correct. This = "firmish but not as tight as you can get it" when using a short handled open ended spanner. Essentially you want to compress the gasket but not squish it to a point where it loses its elasticity.

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, Peugeot 406 ST (deadish), Peugeot 307 XSE, - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,630
    Speaking of rocker covers - what's your favourite?

    I used to love the solid duralium covers on 403's with the machined carby seat and flange.

    (the 403 carby sits directly on the rocker cover which actually forms part of the inlet manifold - the rest of the manifold was in the head - this made things like the tension of the retaining nuts and the condition of the gasket especially critical if you wanted to avoid fuel vapour leaks)

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, Peugeot 406 ST (deadish), Peugeot 307 XSE, - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Wendouree Vic. Aust
    Posts
    2,436
    DoubleChevron:
    Guys,

    there's only two rules you need to follow:

    1. If it breaks, that was to tight.
    2. If it falls out, that was to loose.

    What else do you need to know
    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Shame shame Shane, this explains a lot, Especially after the hydraulics failure on the GRO run, the parts in the boot i'll fix it next time it breaks sure keep[s the cars in tip top shape. NOT.
    Just keep in mind, to remain a happy MAN. Keep your Nuts well adjusted and your Bolt well lubricated.

    cheers! whistle dance roll_lau
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  17. #17
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    4,917
    Damien whats happening with your R18 wagon anyway?Is it going or not? head_ban

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,326
    Danielsydney,

    The "torque" screws you referred to in a previous post are related to the name of the head on the screw - they are a star pattern rather than a phillips head or slotted screw - a bugger to deal with unless you have the right screwdrivers.

    I think the spelling is different though.

    It is different to the torque wrench the others are thinking of.
    KB


  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,630
    Yep. Those are "Torx" head screws (its a brand name), designed to increase the surface area of the bit contact in the head. Different thing.

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, Peugeot 406 ST (deadish), Peugeot 307 XSE, - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

  20. #20
    UFO
    UFO is offline
    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gerringong, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    9,616
    renault8&10:
    Danielsydney,

    The "torque" screws you referred to in a previous post are related to the name of the head on the screw - they are a star pattern rather than a phillips head or slotted screw - a bugger to deal with unless you have the right screwdrivers.

    I think the spelling is different though.

    It is different to the torque wrench the others are thinking of.
    I think Daneil is refering to TORX screws/bolts.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  21. #21
    XTC
    XTC is offline
    VIC: a fine driving state XTC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Location Location Location
    Posts
    8,566
    All this talk about torx and torque is making my head spin !!!

    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




    '02 Peugeot 206 GTi / '07 VW Golf GTI
    Now this is a .sig
    AF'd in PER, MEL, SYD, ADL, CBR

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Wendouree Vic. Aust
    Posts
    2,436
    Daniel, i'm having trouble getting a windscreen, otherwise it's just a lack of money holding me up cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  23. #23
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    20
    Richard,
    Be careful with your torque wrench/spanner it it's being lying around for a while in the workshop and has been dropped etc, it could very well be out of tolerance and could lead to over tightening. We use torque wrenches in our line of work and we have them calibrated every 12 or 24 months. If in doubt get it checked because it may cause you some heart ache if you snap abolt.
    spanner cry

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Victoria
    Posts
    1,001
    Thanks for the warning. I just checked out the torque wrench in the garage and I don't think it would be very useful anyway. It looks like it's for heavy duty bolts as it's got a scale from 0 to 600 lb ft, so it would be hard to accurately measure smaller torques on it.

    Rod and Ray, I keep snapping bolts because of my sheer strength! roll_lau No really, I probably was using my socket set to tighten up those bolts I'd snapped. I tend to use my socket wrench for everything except where it won't fit, and in those cases I'd use an open-ended or ring spanner or whatever else fits. I'll try to be a bit more careful.

    And about torque figures for bolts, Rod, I noticed you mention 10nm for sump bolts but where can you get these figures from? They don't seem to mention all of the torques in the Hayne's manual.

    Cheers,
    Richard
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
    25 GTX '86
    - manual conversion

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,630
    silverexec:
    And about torque figures for bolts, Rod, I noticed you mention 10nm for sump bolts but where can you get these figures from? They don't seem to mention all of the torques in the Hayne's manual.

    Cheers,
    Richard
    \\ You'll find that one in Haynes on page 29, Richard. It was pretty standard on Pugs from the 403 through to the 505. Its gone up a bit on the more recent cars though.

    Sounds like that torque wrench might have been for a diesel. You really need a couple. A small one for low readings (up to say 30 or 40 NM and another one for higher figures. No need to get up to anywhere near 600 lb ft on a 505 though! Even the crankshaft pulley nut only needs 125ft lb!

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod's Home Page

    Rod's car page

    Peugeot 407 SV HDi estate 2008, Peugeot 407 SV Hdi Sedan 2006, Peugeot 406 ST (deadish), Peugeot 307 XSE, - Previously 403s, 404, 504, 505 sLI Wagons, 306 XSi, Renault 12, Citroen DSpecial

Page 1 of 3 123 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •