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  1. #1
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    The truth comes out...

    All day the news has featured the lead story about the joker who was killed on the Anzac Bridge in Sydney. The Commodore he was driving finished up on the wrong side of the bridge and brought Sydney traffic to a standstill for hours.

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    The story told how, seconds before his fatal crash, he had failed to stop at a radar speed trap.

    This evening, however, a new part has been added to the story... he was being pursued by police after failing to stop at the radar trap.

    In heavy traffic like this, surely it wouldn't be necessary to risk life and limb (one driver was trapped in his vehicle for four hours!) with such a pursuit?

    This matter should have been dealt with by other means...

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! jfn180's Avatar
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    i work on parramatta rd and from 7.30am till 12.30pm the rd was very very busy,most of the traffic was made to go on parramatta rd which is busy every day, most of the workers were late for work, one person say that it took her 35mins from ashfeild to leichhardt,it take on most days 10mins
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  3. #3
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Ray,

    Don't tell me you've forgotten Roy Rogers & Hopalong Cassidy; the sheriff and the posse always chased the baddies. roll_lau roll_lau mallet

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    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    About 8 months ago while on the quiet drive through the National Park south of Sutherland, I was passed by a Commodore driver on a mission going in opposite direction. Few seconds later by another Commodore driver on a mission to catch the 1st one, this one though had red and blue lights flashing.
    Next morning there was a report of a 19yo thief killed in Nat Park when his car left the road "shortly after the police called off the chase".

    I was just glad that me and companion werent on that corner at a time (we passed it 3 minutes before).

    Surely there are better ways, specially in places like Nat. Park where there is usually only one or two ways in/out.

    PS. chase originated in Campsie (Bankstown area) so it must have gone for quite a while.

    <small>[ 03 October 2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: tekkie ]</small>
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! buzzedmi16's Avatar
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    You know I got into this argument with my old man last night, and I'm gonna say the same thing here, it sounds as though you are blamming the police for this happening? The guy in the VL commodore, broke the law, the police are responsible for the law, I dunno what the news said up there, but what it said down here was, The commodore saw that the police had caught him speeding, so he sped off, the police gave chase, and when they saw him around the corner he had crashed into a couple of cars.
    This is in no way the police's fault, the dick head was the one that was breaking the law, then tried to get away from the police, at high speed in the middle of peak hour traffic.
    Point is he ran, police always give chase if you run, he could have been a drug dealer, a murderer anything.
    I dunno, im rambling, point is, it wasnt the cops fault it is kinda against the law for pursuit cars to take a radar photo, like stand still vans in canberra, or the red light camera's. The guy ran it was ultimately his fault...
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  6. #6
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    The police should not be chasing hoons in the city at 6:30 am in peak traffic. Its too dangerous. By the afternoon that bridge was as clear as a whistle no sign of anything....

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    It's not against the law for the police to take other measures, though...

    They take the numberplate and record the details, send a letter to the owner and demand to know who was driving that day. There is no way out of this, the law provides that they can issue an infringement notice or take more severe action if the owner fails to give the information!

    They can also call on a helicopter if it's that bad, or arrange for police in other areas to be on the lookout for the car, pull a road block, switch the lights to red to box him in... lots of things.

    The number of deaths that occur, as tekkie has said, just after 'police called off the chase' has to arouse suspicion anyway.

    And I'll never forget the case where three women were hit on a pedestrian crossing by a Police Charger on a pursuit near King's Cross one time... the court case lingered for years, in the end the worst injured woman was glad it was over even without getting proper justice.

    True, this guy might have been off the air, but it's unlikely that it was anything more than he got up a bit of extra speed on the off-ramp from the Harbour Bridge or something, with a speed camera at the bottom of the hill where the speed limit drops from 80 to 60 or somesuch.

    Taht's the likely scenario in that kind of a traffic situation... but he's run because he's probably out of points... and a tragedy (and massively expensive traffic jam...) occurs.

    Take away the radar trap and what would have happened?

    Abosolutely nothing!

    Which would you prefer? Cut the garbage and bring it down to these simple facts. With the radar trap there's a death, some injuries, millions of dollars in costs. Without the radar trap nothing... that is zero... goes wrong!

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    I 100% agree with you Ray.
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  9. #9
    XTC
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    And lets face it .... there is probably not a single traffic cop that doesn't like a good chase from time to time ... having said that at least they now have the sense to call them off if the driver starts to do stupid things (like driving on the wrong side of the road - or turning headlights off when it's dark dead ). Trouble is sometimes that call is made too late. The person is still breaking the law .... if they kill themselves then that's their fault - if they kill innocent by-standers they should be pubically flogged, hung, drawn and quartered !!

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  10. #10
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    Having talked to several members who have come under scrutiny for their driving in emergency and pursuit matters, Police (in victoria anyway) are slowly but surely changing there mindset on pusuits.

    There is now strict guidlines defining elective/imperitive pursuits.

    The members in the pusuit vehicle are advised by a pursuit controller as to the continuation of a pursuit.

    The observer in the pursuit vehicle relays information as to traffic, direction of travel, vehicle speeds inrealtion to the speed zone.
    The pusuit controller will usualy terminate the pursuit as soon as any traffic or other hazards are noticed.

    Having the pursuit overseen by an external and impartial figure, means the adrenilin factor is largely removed.

    The pursuit is cancelled by an audiable alert tone that is broadcast over the Polce radio....

    From what I have been told by a few mates in NSW, the "pursuit" vehicle barely even got up to speed when it rounded the corner and saw the commodore had lost control and hit oncoming traffic. I doubt they would have even had time to declare it a pursuit.....

    by RAY BELL
    They take the numberplate and record the details, send a letter to the owner and demand to know who was driving that day. There is no way out of this, the law provides that they can issue an infringement notice or take more severe action if the owner fails to give the information!
    Have you ever tried to take the registration number of a vehicle that passes you at 100kph?
    Not likely unless you have go-go gadget eyes

    BTW usualy a car that runs is a stolen car (especially commodores) and unfortunately we cannot issue a penalty notice to the thief unless we know who that person is.

    There is two side to every story, and the police will always be scrutinzed and criticised no matter what they do or don't do.

    Regards,
    Richard

  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Yes, I've read numberplates of cars doing 100kmh... and more.

    But I think you miss the point...

    Irrespective of whether he 'ran' because he was up on points or the car was stolen, it was obviously peak hour traffic. Nothing good could ever come of any pursuit in these circumstances, and he wouldn't have been tempted to 'run' if the speed trap hadn't been there.

    I agree that sometimes it must be hard to judge what to do, but this one was a no-brainer. If he failed to pull up on a signal, he was going to get desperate, no question!

    Which is worse? A dead driver (be he thief or unlicenced driver or simply up on points) or a stolen car that doesn't get recovered for another day?

    That's without factoring in the other injuries that were caused. That it became a multi-million dollar delay to the city's activities for the day only served to underline the waste.

    Now... had this happened westbound on Victoria Road at Ryde an hour later... different issue altogether!

  12. #12
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    Ray Bell

    I agree that sometimes it must be hard to judge what to do, but this one was a no-brainer. If he failed to pull up on a signal, he was going to get desperate, no question!
    To signal a driver to pull over you are already in a pursuit by it's literal definition.

    Which is my point Ray, if you saw a poilce vehicle with it's lights on behind you, performing a routine intercept, and then you happen to lose control for what ever reason and crash....even if there was no pursuit so to speak of, the media would still make a "crash as result of a pursuit" story out of it.

    As I said, from what I have heard, the police vehicle that had the radar, barely got up to speed (by that I mean, it had just pulled onto the road and was starting to accelerate to perform a routine intercept) when the other vehicle crashed.

    By defenition the crashed vehicle was being "pursued" but it was not the kind of reckless pursuit that you are claiming. You shouldn't believe everything that gets spoon fed to us by the media in search of a big story....

    But like I said damned if we do, damned if we don't..

    <small>[ 03 October 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    You have totally misunderstood me... I never once said that this was a crash caused by a 'reckless' pursuit.

    What I said was that to begin a pursuit in these circumstances was in itself fraught with danger.

    No doubt this joker looked in his mirror and saw the police car take off after him... that would be enough.

    Now, I don't know where the police radar was stationed, I don't know exactly where each of the events took place... there's insufficient information here to come to correct conclusions about this 'pursuit' and how long it had gone on.

    But there's no doubt in my mind that it shouldn't have happened at all.

  14. #14
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    Ray Bell
    If he failed to pull up on a signal.

    No doubt this joker looked in his mirror and saw the police car take off after him... that would be enough.

    What I said was that to begin a pursuit in these circumstances was in itself fraught with danger.
    The "signal" to pull over generally comes from a police vehicle being behind you.

    In this case, as you state corrctly, the guy looked in his mirror, knew he was done and took off.. and crashed about 10 seconds later...There was NO pursuit as such...but that seems to have been lost somewhere along the lne by both the media and you.

    They did not begin a pursuit, they began a routine intercept. By the time they got on the road the other car had crashed....

    <small>[ 03 October 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    mistareno:
    Have you ever tried to take the registration number of a vehicle that passes you at 100kph?
    Not likely unless you have go-go gadget eyes
    ....
    There is two side to every story, and the police will always be scrutinzed and criticised no matter what they do or don't do.

    Regards,
    Richard
    go-go Gadget eyes, its called a digi camera mistareno. not too hard to have them attached to a speed gun if only there was a demand to have them. it would remove any doubt who was actually getting scanned by the radar gun, AND it would take a nice happy snap of the offending vehicle and the driver if the shot was frontal.

    IT is good to see the police trying to use other measures to stop persuits. I just find it difficult to swallow "persuit was stopped 30 seconds before accident happened" thing. Campsie to Sutherland nat park is a fair hike (20kms+ easy) and to have the police stop the persuit after being 5 secs behind the car after some of the more twisty roads in national park in saturday when there are plenty of slow moving cars about is a bit... eeerrr. I'll stop now. *anger building* wink
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  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    What kind of semantics is this?

    My image of what happened was that a stationary radar trap was in place. I don't know... like I said, we don't know enough... and that he was flagged down and ignored that.

    Then, after that, the pursuit began. Call it an 'intercept' if you like, but it was a pursuit to anyone in the world but you. This pursuit didn't even get properly underway, however, before the jerk went ballistic and crashed.

    His fault, but the situation was created by a sequence of events that could have been stemmed.

    You will defend the police till you're blue in the face, I know... me, I only defend human life.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:


    His fault, but the situation was created by a sequence of events that could have been stemmed.

    You will defend the police till you're blue in the face, I know... me, I only defend human life.
    Ray,

    thats a tad harsh. Police are here to prevent laws being broken. and whilst under no circumstances do I condone the persuit that DID take place (police car winding up to speed), but to say that in peak hour traffic no speed enforcement to take place would be just as stupid. It is at that time that the most speed restraint should be made by the motorists as the lack of it has the greatest chance of hurting someone.

    my 2_cents
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  18. #18
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    Ray Bell
    [QB]What kind of semantics is this?

    My image of what happened was that a stationary radar trap was in place. I don't know... like I said, we don't know enough... and that he was flagged down and ignored that.

    [QB]
    My understanding was that the radar vehicle was performing a static patrol...there was nobody flagging down cars, they were just checking cars as they passed. The commodore went past above the speed limit, the police vehicle pulled onto the road to pull the driver of the other vehicle over, and it crashes at the first corner, about ten seconds after the initial radar reading...as you can (or maybe cannot) understand, I DON'T consider that a pursuit...but the media obviously does.

    As will always happen when someone is injured or killed and the police are involved (no matter how obscurly), it always becomes a finger pointing excercise. That fingerpointing is sometimes justified, but in this case I don't believe it is. In either case, it doesn't help the people who have lost loved ones.

    Oh, regarding the digital cameras on top of the radars... Great idea, but this would then make the radar (atleast all the current ones) non-compliant as it has to be free from any eletrical interference, and digital images are not allowable as evidence as the images are manipulatable.

    BTW when I said go go gadget eyes are required to read a plate of a vehicle at 100 kph, I meant if you were sitting in a car with a radar and getting people going past (ie:you only see the rear of the vehicle as it disapears at 100+ kph) Obviously if the car is coming towards you,as is often done in NSW and QLD, it is a fair bit easier, but we very rarely do radar traps like that in victoria. We don't like getting mowed down.....

    <small>[ 04 October 2003, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Is the media pursuing this instance?

    I haven't heard any criticism at all... but I don't see the papers very much, only hear the TV news generally.

    And there are no corners on the Anzac Bridge. Unless I have a warped idea of where this happened, I don't believe this 'went around the corner' business applies at all.

  20. #20
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    Ray Bell:
    Is the media pursuing this instance?

    I haven't heard any criticism at all... but I don't see the papers very much, only hear the TV news generally.

    And there are no corners on the Anzac Bridge. Unless I have a warped idea of where this happened, I don't believe this 'went around the corner' business applies at all.
    I was under the impression the driver lost control while turning onto the bridge approach I was told that the accident was on the western approach to the bridge and thats what was blocked, and not the bridge itself.... mind you I could have it wrong
    I am a thicktorian after all

    <small>[ 04 October 2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    C'mon Guys,

    calm down. Every police chase in Victoria that crashes ALWAYS was called off minutes before the crash I just can't understand why the public doesn't by this excuse anymore roll_lau roll_lau

    What's the alternative? There was one just outside ballarat recently that crashed (luckily I don't think any innocent partys died), it was a long chase, that the police called off minutes before the accident happened ... mallet mallet roll_lau

    What can you do though, call off the chase as soon as a speed hits xxxxkm's/h? Won't work, the first thing you would do if persued would be accelerate like a crazy [email protected]$tard to that speed and hold it as you know they'll stop chasing...

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  22. #22
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    driving down the main street yesterday in peak hour i had a double bubble on my rear bumper all the way
    i had a car pull out from the other side of the road over double lines right in front of me so i had to either stop to let him go or hit him (i was that close)
    now then the police did nothing
    the bloke could have gone in the direction of traffic and chucked a u turn at the round a bout up the road to head where he wanted to go or go around the block
    now he was in a fairly new statesman and around 50 yr old
    if it were say me in a sporty little red car i would have been pursued and booked for the offence
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  23. #23
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    DoubleChevron:
    C'mon Guys,

    calm down. Every police chase in Victoria that crashes ALWAYS was called off minutes before the crash I just can't understand why the public doesn't by this excuse anymore roll_lau roll_lau

    What's the alternative? There was one just outside ballarat recently that crashed (luckily I don't think any innocent partys died), it was a long chase, that the police called off minutes before the accident happened ... mallet mallet roll_lau

    What can you do though, call off the chase as soon as a speed hits xxxxkm's/h? Won't work, the first thing you would do if persued would be accelerate like a crazy [email protected]$tard to that speed and hold it as you know they'll stop chasing...

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Although cinical in nature, you have hit the nail on the head. A police chase can not be called of at a set speed as such. It is usually terminated by the pursuit controller (an external officer that oversees the pursuit by monitoring radio coms) The decision to cancel is usually influenced by traffic, road conditions, the actions of the vehicle being pursued etc.

    The reason why alot of pursuits end up in the pursued vehicle crashing a minute or so after the pursuit is terminated is because the police identify a hazardous situation and don't proceed.

    The driver of the pursued vehicle doesn't generally have the luxury of an observer relaying real time information to an external controller. Hence they fail to assess dangers and inevitably crash.

    Seeing as every word that is said on police com channels is recorded and, in the event of a pursuit collision is assesed by the coroner, it is quite hard to fudge the outcome of a pursuit or when it is cancelled.

    As the Vic pol onboard cameras come on-line next year, and every minute of every shift is recorded. It will be interesting to see what the cynical do-gooders will blame for the crashes when they see that the majority of the pursuits are terminated.

    It's a catch 22 situation, if a pursuit starts, it is usually as a result of an attempted routine intercept.

    Whether it's cancelled matters not, the fleeing driver will continue to drive like a maniac long after the police vehicles have been ordered to abandon the chase.

    The only solution to prevent pursuits ending in accidents is to stop all routine intercepts, radar sites, Booze buses....you get the picture.

    And as I'm sure most can understand, that is not going to happen.

  24. #24
    XTC
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    mistareno:
    The only solution to prevent pursuits ending in accidents is to stop all routine intercepts, radar sites, Booze buses....you get the picture.
    What a radical idea !!!! whistle Should we start a poll :p

    - XTC206 -
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  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    The only solution to prevent pursuits ending in accidents is to stop all routine intercepts, radar sites, Booze buses....you get the picture.
    Nope, I love to see them all increased... The only thing that's really sh!+s me about speed cameras is the totaly LUDICROUS 3km/h margin. If it was changed to an 8km/h margin I think EVERYONES complaints would stop. However the revenue cameras would then make no $$$. I'd love to know the $$$$ made due to cameras booking people for 63-65km/h. This is a complete injustice, and pure & simple revenue raising

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