Is it a bird..is ia a Plane?? NO - It's a diesel
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  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Is it a bird..is ia a Plane?? NO - It's a diesel

    Just had this arrive on one of the lists. Has anyone ever heard about this?
    They claim to have members in Australia, which knowing the standard of our diesel would be a worry. eek!
    Also, I wonder if they are thinking of Canola oil??? The mind boggles. I could be wrong, but I would feel much happier if I knew they weren't flying round me!!
    Hey hang on...it's not April first is it?? mallet

    "Hi I am in a group, where the members are building or plan on
    building, planes and hope to fit Diesel Engines to them.

    Do not worry there are flying Diesel planes using Peugeot/Citroen
    2ltr, 1.4ltr Citroen, 1.7/2ltr Isuzu *cast iron* .

    Anyway the 60 members are in Canada/Usa/Australia/New Zealand etc.

    Advertisement


    Almost NO ALL Aluminium Diesels are sold in these countries, even
    Japan does not sell aluminium diesels in Japan.

    So this is two fold, trying to find the most suitable motors and
    then may do a group buy.

    1. The lighter the better, has anyone weighed their motor.
    2. All aluminium.
    3. Direct or Common Rail.
    4. 3 or 4 cyl ***VW Lupo***
    5. From 1.2 Common rail or 1.4direct injection to 2ltr **60hp/100hp
    6. $$$ New and used as a short block except **hdi with computer**
    7. How are the spare part prices like for Citroen?
    8. Best years, models.
    9. Sites,Wreckers,Groups ??.

    Thank you for for taking the time, hope to hear from your group.
    Bye Tony Troy"

    Alan S whistle mallet
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  2. #2
    UFO
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    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
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    Can't remember the exact details, but diesel planes have been done. I'm sure Ray will know the full stuff - but it involved that knocker diesel that he brought to our attention some months ago. BTW - this was late WWII that it happened.

    Not a bad idea though I suppose. With the torque of a diesel it should make all that climbing easy roll_lau mallet
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    In the Second World War Junkers made a few diesel planes, mostly for transport, as they were fairly slow and underpowered.
    A friend of mine is an aeroplane freak, and he has told me that there are a few people in Australia who have fitted Peugeot diesels to their home built aeroplanes. I think it is a great idea, especially for a replica of a Tiger Moth or something, which even at their most powerful only had something like 90hp anyway.
    I think a replica of a Tiger Moth with a chrome moly frame and modern fabric fitted with a 90-100 hp diesel would be fantastic.
    Pugs Rule!

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  4. #4
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    I've sent all the links & details of this to my mate with the hire Tiger Moth which he unfortunately planted into the drink a few months back off Fraser Island cry mallet and asked him for his comments.
    When he gets back, if he's got anything of interest to ad, I'll post it here.

    Alan S whistle
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    An old bloke near me has a 1941 Guiberson plane engine in his garage on a stand and he started it up for me a few weeks ago. Ears are still ringing. Check out this site it has a fantasic picure & drawings.
    [URL=http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Duxford/Guiberson.htm/URL]

    Dallas-based Guiberson Diesel Engine Co.,was to be one of the pioneers of the radial diesel aircraft engine, flying more than 1000 hours with the A-1020 engine. The better-known application was for tank engines, and the Guiberson radial diesel became very well known as a land engine rather than an aircraft engine. The diesel was produced in 1940, and was a 9-cylinder four-stroke air-cooled engine. The engine used direct injection and had cylinders of 5.125" bore and 5.50" stroke, giving a swept volume of 1021 cu ins or 16.70 litres. A compression ratio of 15:1 gave 320bhp at 2200rpm. Cruising rating was 190hp.
    So many projects - so little time.

  6. #6
    UFO
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    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
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    Actually, if you go to:

    <a href="http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Duxford/avrange.htm" target="_blank">more diesel aero engines</a>

    it is quite amazing how many diesels have been used in aeronautical apps over the years. Thanks for the hint 604 Tragic dance
    Craig K
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    And this site, interesting information of multicrank opposed piston engines.
    <a href="http://www.histomobile.com/histomob/tech/2/120.htm" target="_blank">opposed piston engines</a>

    Ren
    cheers!
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  8. #8
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    There was an interesting article in an Australian Ultralights magazine last year covering the use of the 1.7 turbo diesel as found in the BX and 205?. These are fitted to a French 2 seat experimental/ homebuilt category aircraft called a Jodel D19. The engines were selected based on their torque performance in the 2000 - 3000 rpm range, which is where all good props need to spin. Basically the PSA engine outperformed the VW, Benz and at least one other euro I cant recall. Only modification to the motors was a redesign of the rocker cover to fit under the cowling and a reshaping of the exhaust/turbo routing. They bench ran a heap of these motors to failure and came up with a TBO of somewhere in excess of 3300 hours,based on a percentage of the time to the earliest failure(a valve stem) not bad considering your average Continental or Lycoming is up for overhaul at 1500 ($15K)and a poor little Rotax is good for 500 hours (if you are nice to it)
    According to the report the diesel climbout performance was excellent, better than the lycoming and fuel costs were somewhere around 5 euros per hour at 120 knots compared to 20euros for the lycoming on avgas. Noise and vibration also were no worse than the lycoming.
    Weight was about 40 kg more and was compensated by pruning some of the seat and interior trim and moving the diesel closer to COG.
    Thats about all I can remember from the report, took the article in to work and havent got it here for reference.

  9. #9
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    How did I miss this one?

    Yeah, I know of one diesel aero engine... a Napier, which doesn't seem to be on UFO's list.

    <a href="http://www.home.aone.net.au/shack_one/nomad.htm" target="_blank">http://www.home.aone.net.au/shack_one/nomad.htm</a>

    Incredible, really... more detail:

    On the other hand, a far more thorough (if not to say brilliant) exploitation of compounding principles by Napier enjoyed no success at all: their Nomad engine, conceived at a time when propellors were expected to be the normal means of airliner propulsion, did not mature until the aviation world had gone over to jets. Like so many unusual engines, it arrived too late ; and to be truthful it may be argued that it never really matured anyway, since it was by all accounts a pig to start.

    Looking at its specification, this hardly seems surprising. The Nomad was a 12 cylinder horizontally-opposed liqid cooled two-stroke compression-ignition engine cmpounded with an exhaust gas turbine, both of these units driving a single propellor shaft through reduction gears. Even the basic construction was satisfying: the crankcase was a two-piece structure of magnesium alloy castings, the two cylinder blocks were of aluminium alloy with dry liners fitted in each cylinder bore. Each of the cylinders had its own aluminium cylinder head, elegant and simple in shape because the 8 inlet and three exhaust ports of each cylinder were of course in the walls.

    <img src="http://www.eaa1000.av.org/newsletr/dslnmd.gif" alt=" - " />

    As appropriate to a 2-stroke the the ratio of bore to stroke was unfashionably low, resulting in measurements of 6 and 7.375 inches respectively. This yielded a displacement of 2505 cubic inches, (41.2 litres), making a fairly big engine thet weighed 3580lb. Beneath and behind the crankcase was the turbine department, where a three-stage axial flow turbine rotor was mounted on a shaft which drove through a variable-ratio Bair fluid coupling and gearing which connected it to the propellor shaft - which in turn conected through reduction gears to the crankshaft. Coupled ot the turbine shaft was the compressor, a twelve stage axial flow affair delivering air to the cylinders at very high pressure (8.25 atmospheres) and in enormous quantities (13 lb/sec at maximum speed)

    Many an engine of much less complication has been debased by some want of efficiency in one of more of its component elements. It is a tribute to the design of the Nomad that, with so many constituent sections that could have let it down , it was in fact of extraordinary efficiency. The whole operating cycle was designed to extract every possible quantum of energy: nothing was allowed to to be wasted at any stage. After combustion was initiated by the injection of diesel fuel into the cylinders, the initial expansion of the charge would deliver power through the pistons to the crankshaft. As soon as the exhaust ports were uncovered expansion would continue through the exhaust manifold to the turbine, where the gasses and residual hot air produced by combustion would liberate more power for transmission through the hydraulic coupling to the propellor shaft.

    The total power from the crankshaft and turbine was considerable, and with water injection the take-off rating was 3476hp at 2050 rev/min. But there was more to come: there as still a little energy left in the exhaust gasses even after negotiating the turbine, and this was squirted out as a jet at the back to produce a further 250lbs of thrust, maing a total equivalent horspower of 3570.

    This was equivalent to a BMEP of 205 psi, a very high figure for a 2-stroke. The other specific performance factors were no less impressive: the engine weighed virtually one pound per horsepower and developed 10.5 hp for every square inch of piston area - which provides a revealing comparison with the 6.58 hp.in^2 of the Wright Turbo Compound. At maximum continuous rating the Nomad developed 2248 equivalent horsepower, ; but looming overall was an incomparably mean specific fuel consumption. The engine had after all been concieved as the propulsive unit for a really long range aircraft, intended to realise the most outstanding economy. Napier claimed 0.33 lb/hp.hour, although Air Vice Marshal Banks has hinted that it never quite achieved that.

    It was nevertheless a most satisfying performance. Napier were not to be satisfied though, for thay argued that it ought to be possible to do something with the unburned air in the diesel can only burn 70% of the air it breathes: they therefore inserted an afterburner nozzle in the exhaust manifold, injecting extra fuel to burn the remaining oxygen and thus allow the the turbine to make a much greater contribution to engine output.

    This and an intercooler betwen the the compressor and the cylinders added a mere 170lb to the total weight of the engine; but the result of this slight investment was a fantastic profit of no less than 530hp. On this basis the specific weight fell to 0.83 lb/hp - and who would have though that any diesel would have proved to be relatively lighter than the majority of spark-ignition engines gulping relatively larger quantitis of the best quality petrol?
    I hope that helps...

  10. #10
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    How did I miss this one?

    Yeah, I know of one diesel aero engine... a Napier, which doesn't seem to be on UFO's list.

    .
    Many thanks Ray - that's the first decent description I've read of the Napier Nomad. They suffered from the sudden arrival of the turbine and some very changeable British procurement decisions and only make turbochargers now as part of GEC I believe.

    However, add the Deltic and it's a pretty distinguished history of engineering compression-ignition engines. Add gems such as the Lion and the "slightly complicated" Scabre and I can only marvel at the quality of some of their design engineers. There are hardly any books about Napier - I know of "Napier - the first to wear the Green" and "Napier Powered", the latter mostly an excellent picture book. Do you know of more?

    JohnW
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  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Hmmm... I know very little, but I was taken by that one's complexity (combined with sheer madness and an element of simplicity, if you can understand that...) when it was revealed in this thread...

    <a href="http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1782" target="_blank">http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1782</a>

    And there's this one for more...

    <a href="http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1793" target="_blank">http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1793</a>

    Unfortunately they've been archived, so there are no additions to them. And because of the age, some of the photo/cutaway drawing links are no longer relevant.

    But there's still some very interesting stuff there...

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    604 tragic:
    An old bloke near me has a 1941 Guiberson plane engine in his garage on a stand and he started it up for me a few weeks ago. Ears are still ringing. Check out this site it has a fantasic picure & drawings.
    [URL=http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Duxford/Guiberson.htm/URL]

    Dallas-based Guiberson Diesel Engine Co.,was to be one of the pioneers of the radial diesel aircraft engine, flying more than 1000 hours with the A-1020 engine. The better-known application was for tank engines, and the Guiberson radial diesel became very well known as a land engine rather than an aircraft engine. The diesel was produced in 1940, and was a 9-cylinder four-stroke air-cooled engine. The engine used direct injection and had cylinders of 5.125" bore and 5.50" stroke, giving a swept volume of 1021 cu ins or 16.70 litres. A compression ratio of 15:1 gave 320bhp at 2200rpm. Cruising rating was 190hp.
    Did he ever take it to the Avalon airshow? I remember seeing (and hearing !!) a radial deisel engine on a stand. Bloody amazing sound!
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    Did he ever take it to the Avalon airshow? I remember seeing (and hearing !!) a radial deisel engine on a stand. Bloody amazing sound!

    Hi Haakon
    It probably was him as he's an old aero nut & goes to Oskosh.
    That engine is truly incredible as you tune it by holding the exhaust pipes whilst its running. If one pipe is too hot to hold onto then that cylinder needs adjustment. I held all 9 in turn and you can feel the slight heat differences!

    This guy picked up a huge amount of air-force surplus stuff after ww2 (picture a row of RR Merlins line up in his shed). He also has a wealth of knowlege and experience, I got him to split a Matchless crankcase that had water in it for a few years and had frozen together - as nobody else could do this job. He wouldnt say how he finally did it (but he charged me $50 for gas).

    Do any of you diesel blokes know anything about the Mazda 2 litre supercharged diesel engine in the early 90s Capella (626) or Bongo van?

    Also - anybody got any AJS / Matchless VTwin stuff (MX) they will part with?
    So many projects - so little time.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That Napier sound awesome!!!!!!!!
    The Joduls sound fantastic too. Just imagine one of those in a Tiger Moth replica with a chrome moly frame. It would be better than the original!
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi, I haven't had time to read all of the above but the word "knocker" jumped out at me.

    Ray would be right in making aconnection between the Tillings Steven horizontally opposed diesel used by the Rootes group in Commer trucks and WW2 planes. Apparently this design was developed by the Germans and used in Stukers, but I was never sure whether they were diesels.

    Very interesting motors and a real snack to do pistons and rings on. In each side and drag the piston assemplies clear of the rockers. The new ones are fitted through a tapered ring compressor. Having no head made it really easy.

    They were two stroke with ports for induction and exhaust and with a supercharger (Rootes blower) to force the induction.

    Cheers

    Jim

  16. #16
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I really have no idea... but I loved the sound of those double knockers out in the mountains at night... down another gear and roar!

    Here's a little picture for those who want to know how they worked...

    <img src="http://www.topolino.demon.co.uk/go_ts3.gif" alt=" - " />

    And another...

    <img src="http://www.topolino.demon.co.uk/cutaway.gif" alt=" - " />

    Hooked up to a six speed box, nothing like the trucks of today. Unique sound...

  17. #17
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    a mate of mine used to have a knocker in the farm truck and used to bash it around the paddock
    the farm has been sold on now but the truck could well still be there
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    What a truly bizarre contraption!
    The chap with the radial diesel at the Avalon airshow said that the reason it was never used in aircraft was becuse of the huge amounts of torque it had - when the pilot booted the throttle for take off, it had so much torque it would twist the plane so much one wing would hit the ground!

    Saw some great engines that day, a cut away V12 Merlin, the 32 cylinder dual radials on the Constelation with turbo and supercharging.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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