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  1. #1
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Stopping Power!!!

    Got to get me some of deez!!! eek!

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    <img src="http://home.iprimus.com.au/bwjones/pictures/stoppingpower.jpg" alt=" - " />
    B to the R to the A from the D
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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! WRX2PUG's Avatar
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    Hey, my car looks like that when I go round corners - Doesn't quite look like that when I'm braking though
    Renault Clio F1R27 road car and Supercharged Lotus Elise track car

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Great shot ... forget the brakes, GIMME the car!
    ashleyt

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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts n b j's Avatar
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    Ahhhh love it!!!
    great shot

    gotta love those porsche brakes wink

    I onced pulled up our porsche RS to a standstill from 220km/h in less then 300 meters

    Just about squeezed my brain out of my eye sockets approve

    head_ban
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Reno's Avatar
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    i took my old mans Boxter S for a few decent drives... it pulled up on a dime, the beaks in those we strong enough to give you a nose bleed, i'd hate to think what that car can do....

  6. #6
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    I was just looking at an old CAR mag on Sunday that had a test of the 306 S16 and Porsche 911 Carrera against a McLaren MP 4/9 F1 car. They did the 0-100mph-0 thing. The Pug did it in 30.4 secs, Porsche 17.9, and the McLaren in 6.4!

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  7. #7
    UFO
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    Gee, we hydraulic Cit drivers can pull our cars up pretty short too - but certainly without that horrendous nose dive! Love the way they all squat on all four wheels when you really pull up!

    dance citroen_
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    UFO:
    Gee, we hydraulic Cit drivers can pull our cars up pretty short too - but certainly without that horrendous nose dive! Love the way they all squat on all four wheels when you really pull up!

    dance citroen_
    lol,

    My first drive of a DS I almost launched all the occupants through windscreen when I hit the button...erm brake "pedal"

    Probably looked alot like that porsche shot

  9. #9
    UFO
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    DTwo:
    UFO:
    Gee, we hydraulic Cit drivers can pull our cars up pretty short too - but certainly without that horrendous nose dive! Love the way they all squat on all four wheels when you really pull up!
    lol,

    My first drive of a DS I almost launched all the occupants through windscreen when I hit the button...erm brake "pedal"

    Probably looked alot like that porsche shot
    No, the DS would have just squatted down. If you brake hard in hydraulic Cits (esp DS) the arse just tucks down due to the rear swing arm suspension. If you then hold your foot there for a few seconds while the system sorts itself, when you let the brakes off, the rear will rise quite rapidly head_ban

    You and your passengers get a forward momentum effect at the time of braking but the car does not nose dive. Gentle braking in a DS is an acquired art. Even better if you can pull up without the flex in the driveshafts gently rocking you. The front brakes on a DS are inboard next to the gearbox.

    A gentle caress of the button is all that's required. whistle And if you treat the brake pedal the same way the car stops gently
    eek! whip citroen_
    Craig K
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    UFO:
    DTwo:
    UFO:
    Gee, we hydraulic Cit drivers can pull our cars up pretty short too - but certainly without that horrendous nose dive! Love the way they all squat on all four wheels when you really pull up!
    lol,

    My first drive of a DS I almost launched all the occupants through windscreen when I hit the button...erm brake "pedal"

    Probably looked alot like that porsche shot
    No, the DS would have just squatted down. If you brake hard in hydraulic Cits (esp DS) the arse just tucks down due to the rear swing arm suspension. If you then hold your foot there for a few seconds while the system sorts itself, when you let the brakes off, the rear will rise quite rapidly head_ban

    You and your passengers get a forward momentum effect at the time of braking but the car does not nose dive. Gentle braking in a DS is an acquired art. Even better if you can pull up without the flex in the driveshafts gently rocking you. The front brakes on a DS are inboard next to the gearbox.

    A gentle caress of the button is all that's required. whistle And if you treat the brake pedal the same way the car stops gently
    eek! whip citroen_
    Yes, I picked up alot of these points as the owner was explaining them through tears of laughter and ridicule

    <small>[ 23 July 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: DTwo ]</small>

  11. #11
    nJm
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    I've never timed my 505's braking efforts, although I'm not so sure I'd like to try it. I'm a strong believer in ABS, having experience both it, and my pug's locked up wheels at times. I'm sure the 307 has a decent stopping time. However I believe (for a standard road car) the better efforts come from the Volvo S80 and BMW M3 (both around 2.6 seconds for a 60mph-0 stop).
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  12. #12
    UFO
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    NJM

    Remember one important factor. ABS will not pull a car up sooner. If you took an ABS car and compared it to its equivalent without ABS you will find that the ABS car will equal or will use slightly more road for the same stop. In a straight line slam on the foot brake, the non ABS car will lock up all wheels with constant brake force on the road surface whilst the ABS will pulse on and off and therefore use more distance.

    ABS allows the driver to maintain directional control of a vehicle and therefore steer the car around the upcoming hazard while still braking. eg swerve around the truck that pulled out but propped (heaven forbid you would hit it!)

    ABS can also be detrimental on a dirt road as I found out on Saturday in the XM (no collision). The ABS was hammering away but the car was not stopping fast enough. It DID allow me to steer slightly off the road whereas a non ABS car would have just ploughed on.

    Also, ABS does not stand for anti lock braking system - someone posted the true meaning on AF sometime ago but I cannot recall it or find the reference.

    And remember, if you have an ABS car and have not trained yourself on the feel and effect of the ABS working, go out and find somewhere safe to practice so that you know what it feels like when it happens.

    BTW - the opinion given re the stopping distances is backed up by at least two professional driving schools that I know of.
    Craig K
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  13. #13
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    ABS does mean anti lock braking, it just that it's in German - Anti Blockier System or something like that.

    I'm pretty sure you (and two professional driving schools!) are generally wrong in respect of the average to good non-professional driver, at least. Maximum braking effect occurs when the wheels are on the point of locking. A really good driver with loads of practice in a particular car on a particular surface can keep the wheels at this point, or will use cadence braking (like pulsing the pedal to the point of lock over and over) to achieve this. But this is quite difficult, and of course the average driver drives on all different surfaces/conditions all the time. ABS removes this factor and allows the wheels to get to the point of almost locking for more of the braking time. Non ABS cars are better on loose surfaces because locking up on these surfaces digs in and builds up a wedge of gravel etc. that helps stop the car.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Yep, I'm with Stuey on this one. In real life, regular driver, emergency situations on a bitumen road ABS usually does outperform non-ABS in terms of stopping distances. Not many people have the skill to modulate pedal pressures as effectively and you can go on sliding for a long, long way, especially if the road is wet.

    I agree with you about testing it out deliberately though, UFO. Its an unnerving feeling the first time you eperience it.

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 24 July 2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! crosspug's Avatar
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    Yep, I'm with Stuey on this one. In real life, regular driver, emergency situations on a bitumen road ABS usually does outperform non-ABS in terms of stopping distances. Not many people have the skill to modulate pedal pressures as effectively and you can go on sliding for a long, long way, especially if the road is wet.
    As much as it hurts me, I agree. 90% have no idea of control.

    But I agree with the idea that a non-ABS car will stop better if stopped perfectly. Especially in the wet.

    Funny thing was when I did my Advanced driving course I stopped better in the wet than in the dry (on the straight line tests) deal whip

    Jono

    BTW that porsche thing, easy peesy.......... I can do that in my sisters Daishitzu Feroza II. roll_lau whistle
    Bloody dangerous car that one, nose dives something chronic..........
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  16. #16
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    crosspug:

    But I agree with the idea that a non-ABS car will stop better if stopped perfectly. Especially in the wet.
    Perhaps, but this is irrelevant.

    Under emergency braking conditions, when you know you are not going to stop in time, the instinctive reaction is to press the brake pedal HARDER. In a car without ABS, it is almost inevitable that your wheels will lock up, ESPECIALLY in the wet. Once you have locked up your wheels on the wet road, you may experience aquaplaning as the tyres skim across the surface of the standing water, increasing the braking distance dramatically.

    The risk of aquaplaning is greatly reduced with ABS.

    Dave

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    ABS is for the everyday driver, non-abs is for the experianced racer or similar.... both will pull up the same car in very similar time vs distance test.
    ABS helps an average driver reach higher potentials... bu wont pull the car up in a shorter distance.
    Good/better brakes will.... bet you that porsche has 6pots carbons at the front and 4 pot vented at back or better... but probably no ABS.
    Tyre-on-surface grip levels have a contributing factor too,.. cheers Chris

    ps top shot brad, were did you find that?
    ... ptui!

  18. #18
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    UFO:
    Gee, we hydraulic Cit drivers can pull our cars up pretty short too - but certainly without that horrendous nose dive! Love the way they all squat on all four wheels when you really pull up!

    dance citroen_
    Hey thats strange, Thats the way I would have described my Xsara braking. The couple of times I have had to brake hard, thats exactly what it felt like, it just seemed to squat down and just grip the road. But.....it doesn't have that special suspension, so whats going on here? It does have ABS and EBD.

    Dan.
    <img border="0" alt="[Citroen Emblem]" title="" src="graemlins/citroen.gif" /> 2002 Xsara VTR

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Luffy did mention that for 90% of the population the ABS will stop the car faster than the non-ABS.
    In the wet, or less grippy conditions you will maintain the control instead of plowing ahead. There is a prolem with ABS in snow/ice conditions though as the car cannot "collect" snow in front of the wheels to help with braking (probaly similar to what UFO experienced) but rides over the top.

    btw, I think that Porsche is just coming in to land, I just cant imagine a LWB sports car doing that.
    .
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    But I agree with the idea that a non-ABS car will stop better if stopped perfectly. Especially in the wet.
    Its the other way around, crosspug. Its in the wet that ABS shines. On dry roads there is very little difference. On gravel, ice and snow non-ABS wins. But its in the wet that ABS beats even a sensitive right foot.

    There is a nice analysis of the pros and cons on the NHSCA web site at <a href="http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/808206.html" target="_blank">http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/808206.html</a>

    It concludes:
    The principal findings and conclusions from the statistical analyses of accident data are the following:

    ABS significantly reduced the involvements of passenger cars in multivehicle crashes on wet roads. ABS reduced police-reported crash involvements by an estimated 14 percent, and fatal involvements by 24 percent. The finding is consistent with the outstanding performance of ABS in stopping tests on wet roads.

    Certain types of collision involvements on wet roads, such as striking another vehicle in the rear, or striking a stopped vehicle, were reduced by 40 percent or more. This benefit, however, was partially offset by an increased likelihood of being struck in the rear by another vehicle. The better your own braking capabilities, the more likely that a following vehicle with average braking capabilities will hit you.

    ABS had little effect on multivehicle crashes on dry roads. The contrast in the results for wet roads and dry roads is consistent with findings in stopping tests, where ABS improved stopping distances and directional control substantially on wet surfaces, but much less so on dry surfaces.

    The risk of fatal collisions with pedestrians and bicyclists was reduced by a statistically significant 27 percent in passenger cars with ABS. Unlike the effects for multivehicle crashes, this reduction was about equally large on wet and dry roads.

    All types of run-off-road crashes - rollovers, side impacts with fixed objects and frontal impacts with fixed objects - increased significantly with ABS. Nonfatal run-off-road crashes increased by an estimated 19 percent, and fatal crashes by 28 percent.

    Rollovers and side impacts with fixed objects - crashes that typically follow a complete loss of directional control - had the highest increases with ABS. Nonfatal crashes increased by 28 percent, and fatal crashes by 40 percent.

    Frontal impacts with fixed objects, where the driver is more likely to have retained at least some directional control prior to impact, increased by about 15-20 percent, both nonfatal and fatal.

    The negative effects of ABS on run-off-road crashes were about the same under wet and dry road conditions.

    The reason for these negative effects is unknown. One possibility is that average drivers may at times steer improperly in panic situations. Because ABS preserves steering control under hard braking, cars may be swerving or heading off the road.

    The observed effects of ABS on snowy or icy roads, while not statistically significant, were all similar to the effects on wet roads - i.e., positive for multivehicle collisions, negative for run-off-road crashes.

    The overall, net effect of ABS on police-reported crashes (including multivehicle, pedestrian and run-off-road crashes) was close to zero.

    The overall, net effect of ABS on fatal crashes was close to zero.
    They offer a concluding word of caution however. One of the big unresolved issues at present is whether the accident rate will decline as people like us (who learned to drive with non-ABS systems) get used to the idea of NOT modulating pedal pressure.

    And, of course, as more cars are fitted with ABS the chances of being collected in the backsideon a wet road by someone using a conventional system should decline.

    I personally suspect though, that part of the reason for increased single car accidents is partly at least due to people having too much confidence in the system and travelling too fast for the conditions accordingly. (The increasing number of SUV's in the states might well be related too)

    Cheers

    Rod
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  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Regardless of ABS's pros and cons...

    ABS should not replace the knowledge of how to brake correctly.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    I agree D2. In fact in some ways it adds to the learning load. All drivers really need to learn both ABS and non ABS braking techniques and limitations these days.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  23. #23
    UFO
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    Rod Hagen:
    I agree D2. In fact in some ways it adds to the learning load. All drivers really need to learn both ABS and non ABS braking techniques and limitations these days.

    Cheers

    Rod
    Rod

    Are you suggesting that aussie drivers be properly trained? eek! How politcally terrifying that would be tongue

    I'm glad that even though some people have pointed out the errors in my statements, which I accept, that this topic has stirred up some more knowledge increasing debate. head_ban
    Craig K
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Rod

    Are you suggesting that aussie drivers be properly trained? How politcally terrifying that would be
    Never, UFO! If people learned to drive properly I'd miss out on the wonderful accumulation of bits of bumper bar and broken headlight in the gully in front of our house!

    While I was sticking the bins out the other day I watched no less than 15 cars in a row cut the double lines on our little winding stretch of hill, despite traffic heading up in the other direction and a perfectly adequate amount of bitumen on their own side of the line .

    Given the comparative ease of pointing a car where you want it to go these days (compared to the time when Holden EHs, XL Falcons and Morris Minors dominated the roads) you'd think it would be easy.

    Anybody else think that the quality of "line selection" by far too many drivers these days is either incredibly lazy or incredibly dumb?

    I rememeber times when the cops used to actually pick a nice place off the side of the road to book people for this sort of thing. Haven't seen them do it for years now though. Can't see why you couldn't simply modify a camera to do the same job!

    Mmmm. I might wander down the front yard with the digital camera and email a few shots off to the VicRoads revenue raising branch to stir their imagination! evil

    Cheers

    Rod
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  25. #25
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    FatDan:
    Hey thats strange, Thats the way I would have described my Xsara braking. The couple of times I have had to brake hard, thats exactly what it felt like, it just seemed to squat down and just grip the road. But.....it doesn't have that special suspension, so whats going on here? It does have ABS and EBD.

    Dan.
    Dan,

    306's and Xsara's will both do this because of the rear suspension design, for the same reason as hydro-Citroens do. It's also why when you park on a downhill slow your Xsara will look like it's been "slammed" - with the rear wheels right up inside the wheel arches.

    This is a possible reason why some member's 306's (including GTI124's old car, and my car) seem to wear the rear pads as fast (or in GTI124's case - faster) when compared to the front pads... tucking the tail of the car down puts more load on the rear brakes.

    I'm not 100% sure about the reason for that though, it's just something I've been trying to figure out and it could be a reason. 306 (and presumably Xsara) brake bias is not adjustable in cars fitted with ABS braking - it is controlled by the ABS unit. In comparison, most cars would wear the front pads more rapidly than the rears of course.

    Derek.

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