Thoughts for a tow car
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Thoughts for a tow car

    Now being familiar with the R18 s/w, i realise it will never be useful as a tow vehicle. FWD is just not suitable, even with no trailor the 18 is very light on it's front feet and torque steer is massive. perhaps it needs a wheel alignment or maybe shockers. If not i see only two choices
    1/ A second car on CH Plates capable of towing, or
    2/ part with the R18 s/w & acquire something suitable

    Q. Are there any PUG's suitable, RWD a nessessity, for option 1/ over 25yo req'd. For either option as low a price as possible.

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    I'd prefer a french solution if possible, before looking at Toyzda's, Fordons or Mitzi's bitches.
    cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    ahh welcome to the dilema I just went through.

    406 can tow upto 1500kg's but it is the FWD.
    there is the new libery 4wd, 1400kg's

    I chose the evil route. VX commodore. upto 1600kg's, RWD, LSD, traction control.
    It was hard to go past it on cost'vs'functionality

    expect boring drives though.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

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  3. #3
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    What are you wanting to tow?

    I've never towed more than a car trailer with a complete and semi-loaded 504 Familiale behind my 504 Familiale.

    It's constantly got an overloaded box trailer on its tail...

  4. #4
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Without a doubt the greatest tow vehicle you're ever likely to find is a CX C-matic.
    I have towed boats, caravans, heavy trailers, trees, pulled trees out of the ground and rwd cars out of bogs....but if you scare easy, the suspension will be so simple it will scare you based on all the myths & fairy tales.
    I have never spoken to anyone who has ever used one as a tow vehicle who could fault it. Every one with a tale of woe is usually someone who's never been there done that. Best bit is, you'll possibly pick up a clanger for about $2500

    Alan S 2_cents
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    The recently departed Fairlane, did the tow job brilliantly but was so damn thirsty.
    At 2.5k the Cit' is off the list.
    The questions were asked because other than Renaults, i've not a clue on the configurations of the other French Marques.
    Thanks for the replies M8's.
    cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
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  6. #6
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    mistareno's Avatar
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    I had a feeling the R18 would stuggle....too soft at the rear, and they lift up the front.....They aint the best even normally..

    You could try getting some really heavy rear springs made up.....might stop the pivoting on the rear axle....

  7. #7
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by mistareno
    <strong>.....You could try getting some really heavy rear springs made up.....might stop the pivoting on the rear axle....
    How could this be so?

    The fulcrum point is still the same, the load the same, the lift the same... result will always be the same, but with a stiffer ride to boot!

    Damien, 504s and 505s are rear wheel drive, the wagons have solid rear axles.

    The only other Pug I'd recommend for towing is the 604. There's a couple for sale around here, not a bad idea, comfort plus and towing ease.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Hi Richard, I haven't tried towing yet, was having a spirited drive beside a Clio Sport along Springvale Rd this arvo Within the legal limits, and found the torque steer would force a lane change to the left if not holding the wheel firm enough, accompanied by tyre squeal in first 3 gears. Made me reflect on the fool hardiness, of hooking a tonne of trailor behind it, multiplying the problem several magnatudes.
    Perhaps some pump up shocker, like i used to use in the old HQ wagon for caravan towing, might help?
    cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  9. #9
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    Originally posted by mistareno
    <strong>.....You could try getting some really heavy rear springs made up.....might stop the pivoting on the rear axle....
    How could this be so?

    The fulcrum point is still the same, the load the same, the lift the same... result will always be the same, but with a stiffer ride to boot!

    Damien, 504s and 505s are rear wheel drive, the wagons have solid rear axles.

    The only other Pug I'd recommend for towing is the 604. There's a couple for sale around here, not a bad idea, comfort plus and towing ease.
    true
    grab a 78 model 604 and you have a 25 year old car so you are covered
    yes it does sound scary that these cars are now pushing closer to club plate criteria
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Quote "Damien, 504s and 505s are rear wheel drive, the wagons have solid rear axles."

    Thanks Ray! What do you mean by solid rear axle?
    I'm assuming solid casting or forging as opposed to tubular. cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! 604 tragic's Avatar
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    A second car on CH Plates capable of towing

    Damien
    Ha Ha Ha - be very very careful with this one, but the perfect solution is an early 78 (25yo) 604!!!!

    Think about it - they are so cheap and you will have all the advice you will ever need from AussieFrogs. As a tow car they are perfect eg: huge brakes and good power & really comfortable. Lots of them were on LPG.

    The problem will be to find a good one. I have heard of diesel 604s in Melb. but never seen one, now that would be absolutely perfect!!!
    So many projects - so little time.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    What sort of prices for doer upper 504,505,604's would i be looking at ? cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Bloody Alan!!! He already beat me to it wink

    Get yourself a freebie (or very cheap) CX 2400 C-matic, it might be a little slugish at highway speeds fully loaded with the R8 & trailer(then again, posibly not, as you'd be in the peak power range of the motor).

    A set of club plates at $90bucks a year & your set. I wouldn't recommend it as a daily car on a budget as you'll find it'll drink juice at about 22mpg around town eek!

    However if you want a brilliant, extremely cheap tow barge, I couldn't think of anything better If you don't believe me, a demonstration may be in order wink As a bonus they are an incredibly strong overbuilt beast. If you manage to kill it's motor, I've so much confidence in them, I'll GIVE you another roll_lau roll_lau Yep, they just keep going & going ...

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: You've never seen a FWD get power to the ground in the way a Citroen CX does. My CX2500 GTi Turbo you have to deliberatly provoke to get wheelspin. The BX's are bloody shockas, a bit of greasy road & they'll spin at nothing
    'Cit' homepage:
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  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Come to think of it, there was a CX2400 C-matic at the Concours for sale. I think he had $1750 on it, however I feel $750 will be closer to the mark once he starts getting really desperate to sell it.

    Body, not bad till you get upclose, a few battle scars & a little rust in the windscreen corners. The leather has gone hardish, so the stiching will be splitting. Finaly the door trims were sad and the steering wheel melted.

    However this cars is being USED, so I'm willing to bet will be in quite good mechanical shape. If I remember correctly the guys reason for selling is he's just bought a CX2500 ie pallas and doesn't have the space to park the C-matic anywhere.

    BTW: I just checked tow weight allowed on the CX2500, they appeared to have reduced the towing capacity to 1500kg to bring it in line with the GTW.

    The earlier CX2400s I thought were rated to tow 1800kgs (as are DS's).

    Of course this is all academic as by Victorian law you can only tow a trailer weighing the same amount as the tow car (I think, I'll have to check that).

    seeya,
    Shane L.

    <small>[ 03 November 2003, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: DoubleChevron ]</small>
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Thanks Shane, 22mpg round town, that's not too bad. The fairlane was 14mpg in town, 7mpg towing. Currently getting around 40mpg haven't worked it out in the R18 680km for 50lt of fuel. Please keep your eyes open for a freebee/cheapie CX for me. or a Pug at similar pricing .

    peugeot_ renault_ citroen_ cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  16. #16
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    grab either one or both of the 604's in tassie
    either throw injection at one or if you are game run gas on it
    do a few little bits around it and bobs your uncle
    maybe put slightly heavier springs in the rear end as 604's do tend to sag early in life compared to 504's
    but for a tow vehicle they are great
    i had one that got used for towing karts all over the countryside
    they cruise well, have plenty of torque and are very comfortable
    they all come with power windows and sunroof
    i think ben was open to a very nice offer on his 604
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Pug_405_Mi16's Avatar
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    Yes I am ! $500 and drive it away!

    Ben
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    1990 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo Wagon
    2000 Peugeot 306 XSI
    1973 Peugeot 504 GL





  18. #18
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Damien Gardner:


    Thanks Ray! What do you mean by solid rear axle?
    He means solid as in the rear wheels are solidly connected to each other (not independent), thus the rear camber stays at zero when towing a trailer.

    On the 504/505/604 sedans the independent rear end results in some negative camber when carrying a load, so if you're doing alot of towing, they can scrub out tyres quickly.

    A 504/505 wagon has a greater towing capacity than the sedans aswell. The 504 wagon has a total of four springs on the rear axle (as opposed to only 2 on the 505 wagon), so I'd be recommending a 504 wagon.

    The 5 seat 504 wagon has a slightly lower diff ratio and lower gears in the gearbox than the 7 seat version (504 familiale) or the 505 wagon.

    So basically the 5 seat 504 wagon is THE pick for a towing and general hauling vehicle if you're considering a 504/505/604.

    Dave
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  19. #19
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Well, we still don't know what kind of 'trailor' Damien has in mind...

    Please, it's 'trailer'...

    And if it's just a little box trailer carrying lightish loads then almost anything will tow it fine.

    A car trailer, or a tandem wheeled box trailer, or a caravan, then I'd go for the wagon for sure.

    Apart from the wagon having the live rear axle, the axle is relatively closer to the towball than on a sedan (longer wheelbase etc) so that it's a more stable arrangement.

    Of course, the 604 has a similarly long wheelbase...

    And if you got a 604, LPG would definitely be the way to go.

  20. #20
    Member LynCliff's Avatar
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    Have used both a 504SW 4Sp Man & a 604SL Auto as tow cars for towing car trailers and the 504 is almost perfect if a little lacking in power up long hills with a stock engine. The 604 was ok but a bit softer in the back end but still a good tow vehicle. I fitted the 504 with a Wade cam (65/25) and it it improved it markedly, 20mpg at 100kph with car trailer and 504 on top. The 604 averaged about 15mpg towing.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    The TrailEr being Tandem, fixed axle, 2 wheel brakes, adjustable height draw bar. 400kg with my R10 as load nose on. Trailor is balanced to suit this weight distribution. All up weight around 1.2T.
    As i understand VicRoads reg's. The trailer with 4 wheel brakes can be 1.5 times the weight of the tow car. This should leave [lenty of scope for tow cars.
    cheers!
    Health and good fortune always,
    Damien.

    We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
    We ran to the sounds of thunder.
    We danced among the lightning bolts,
    and tore the R10's assfromunder.

    Robert Jordan & memyself&I

    1/48th Scale Alpine A310,
    N-scale 1/160th Renault & Citroen, Advert. Signs & Billboards

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! PUG309's Avatar
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    The 206 tows a Hobie Catamaran on trailer, quite ammusing (towbar is rated at 50kg ball weight and total weight of 550kg) all up being about 300kg, I find the FWD is a good thing on boat ramps as the driving wheels are further up the ramp, I did have to get a couple of people once to sit on the bonnet to increase traction once but that ramp was very slimey
    Daniel Djuracic

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  23. #23
    nJm
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    I completely agree with Dave on the rear suspension on the 504/505/604 sedans - put a heavy load in the back (even just 3 people) and the rear wheels splay out like the old BMWs (and VT Commodore :p ). You can pick up a 1984-85 505 SR wagon for $3000-4500. These have the carburetor 2L pushrod motor and a 3spd auto. I think there is a series II 505 SL wagon (same 2L but with Bosch k-jet fuel injection) and 4spd auto going for around $4500 at the moment in Melbourne. Have a look through the classifieds on
    <a href="http://www.autotrader.com.au" target="_blank">www.autotrader.com.au</a>

    I guess what you're getting in a 505 over a 504 is the cloth interior, power steering, a/c and a few other things like central locking and front power windows. Those things probably don't matter to you, but they are there. Also the 505 has 8 seats (although if we're talking even medium sized people probably 7) as standard so you can always tow the kids around too
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Gee's guys,

    all this worrying about 'splaying wheels', heavy duty springs, solid axles, fuel injection, not enough power etc, etc ... Didn't you know Suspension, regardless of load on it, age, weight, height etc, etc was perfected back in 1955. The old 2.4 litre banger in the CX certainly isn't powerful, but it'll get you there, no doubt.

    You put the car on low, wheel the trailer over the tow hitch, put the car on high, it lifts the trailer up off the ground and sits at standard ride height. It will NEVER look overloaded, the car will NEVER sit down at the rear, the front wheels DO NOT head for the sky, the steering is unaffected (though keep in mind, you DO have considerable weight on the rear wheels, the car will more than likely understeer strongly if your stupid --Even though the car *looks* unaffected by the tow weight it is still there ...).

    Getcha self a CX, check the rear arm bearings are ok (who cares if there not, at $30bucks a side, it's not really an issue). The car will be dead & gone before the hydraulics die (most poeple cause for concern with these cars). I don't own a car without hydraulic suspension cos there to complex, to hard to work on, and to fragile roll_lau roll_lau roll_lau

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  25. #25
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Can't argue with that...

    And the rear wheels are nicely close to the rear on them too.

    Only other vehicle I can think of with a similar displacement of the wheels is a Wolsely 6/90, but my mate's 1938 Buick Special isn't too bad either.

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