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  1. #1
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    Prefered handling traits...

    What do you consider to be the best handling traits for a car....

    Do you prefer gentle understeer on turn in?

    Or is the ability to tighten the line (or oversteer) the be all and end all for you?

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    Do you prefer firm suspension for ligtning quick reflexes or do you prefer a softer more forgiving setup?

    Do you like to feel every crevice an deviation in the road, or do you prefer a level of isolation?

    What car have you driven that you thought best represented your ideal chassis preferences, and why?

    <small>[ 30 October 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    205gti.....
    for me its hard to beat...anybody who enjoys total road feedback would love one of these....has to be one of very few cars where u will feel feedback even after running over a piece of straw....yes there is plenty of torque steer (which i personally enjoy) but once at speed its steering is very direct and precise....chassis probably a little bit to flexible but probably more liveable because of it...the car can ceartinly get a little bit tiring sometimes (its like a puppy that always wants to play)...so a RAW driving experience ...to say the least....

    i hate cars that do not transmit some kind of feedback....early rexes failed miserably in that respect and my friends gti-r (super quick car) felt completely devoid compared to my pug.....its the kind of car that will take to such high top end speed and than a corner would aproach...in which case u litterally have to check your speedo to figure out your chances of survival 4x4 or not...

    cheers
    dino

    205gti....
    s16....

    PS....i must admit a nice fuego has a very good suspension set up...quite unbelieveable that a car that rides so smoothly (softly) handles so bloody well even stock....

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    dino:
    Fuego....
    ...quite unbelieveable that a car that rides so smoothly (softly) handles so bloody well even stock....
    I would venture to suggest that smooth, well controlled ride and great handling are not uncommon bedfellows. Just look at stock standard factory spec (including dampers!!!) 404/504/505's, most Renaults and Citroens for examples.

    In fact I'm usually suspicous of cars with very stiff suspension. I think this kind of setup has more to do with satisfying an uneducated market demand for cars which have next to no body roll, than any genuine attempt at making a car handle well in all road and weather conditions. Suspension with very limited travel simply cannot keep all four wheels on the tarmac at all times on badly buckled or bumpy roads, especially when cornering quickly.

    On typical poorly maintained, unevenly surfaced Australian country roads, compliant, long travel suspension does a better job of keeping all four wheels firmly planted on the road at all times, than the more trendy (and flawed) stiff as boards approach.

    It is far better to have the wheels and suspension doing all the moving, while the body takes on a pronounced but stable lean, than to have over a 1000 kg of body weight bouncing around trying to follow the road's irregularities thank's to suspension that has no compliance.

    <small>[ 30 October 2003, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: frogs4ever ]</small>
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    i think u r absolutely right frogs4e...which is exactly the reason why the 205gti is such a PHENOMENA....my refernce to the feuego was quoted as a reference standard to the more mundane forms of transport u see on the roads everyday....jap and aussie...some of which have reasonably soft rides yet could not come nowhere near the fuegos handling capacity...wheelbase length and suspension geometry might have something to do with it ...i just wanted to point out the fact that from my limited experience the stock fuego was /is a very well sorted car even by modern standards...nice feedback, reasonably smooth yet fantastically effective...

    regardless of how good such a compromise might be....i d challange any fuego through (a reasonably smooth surfaced) corner with my 205 gti...i ve driven both hard....and the 205 WILL be faster through any given corner....

    cheers
    dino

    ps...we have all seen the 504 pics and the body roll...yet its still a great handler...so i dont mind a bit of body roll (s16 does so more than my 205) but i like it sensible 2...

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! nchandler's Avatar
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    I like a chassis designed for mild oversteer, pointing it in hard at the start of the corner, and flooring it out. I also like a bit of isolation and smoothness. Really, really hard suspension is fun, but not too rewarding on a rough road.

    Nick

  6. #6
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    dino:

    regardless of how good such a compromise might be....i d challange any fuego through (a reasonably smooth surfaced) corner with my 205 gti...i ve driven both hard....and the 205 WILL be faster through any given corner....
    You are forgetting one minor detail....Horses for Courses - The 205GTi has 185/60 R15 tyres (series II's anyway)

    Put that rubber on a Fuego and you will find the handling balance remains the same....Just the cornering speeds increase (dramatically)

    P.S....Then try fitting some REALLY good tyres (I have found 205/45 R16's are excellent ) and the only thing that EVER lets go is the driver, as you fall out of the seats.....

    The original fitment Michelin Metric TRX would have to be THE crapest tyre ever...They are good for one thing, and one thing only...Lasting 100,000K..(by which stage they are so rock hard that you'll probably fall of the road in the wet)

    Ah...the joys of Double wishbone geometry ...... something NO Mac strut can match...EVER

    P.S...The tyres even wear perfectly no matter how hard you drive the thing...

    BTW: How did this end up being a Car Vrs Car topic.....The topic is preferred handling traits...not a "my car will leap tall buildings in a single bound",grudge match

    <small>[ 30 October 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    I guess it depends on the drive system in the car.

    I have a driven a VH commodore that fed back information to the driver even mid corner, had mild understeer which could be very easily made into oversteer with a accelerator and would become understeer gently once again when throttle was lifted. It wouldnt bump or steer itself through the ruts in the road and could easily transport 4 adults in comfort on the way to the theatre.

    FWD. there is only one car that I would love to drive over and over again in every day situation. 306GTi. Without a doubt best handling FWD hatch I have driven. Mild understeer, which becomes liftoff oversteer which becomes understeer depending on the throttle application. Very predictable, as quick through the corners as the 205, would happliy absorb "state of the art" NSW 4wd tracks (also known as public roads) without jarring the teeth out, and ultimately passed my mums test for "thats a very nice and quiet car" . (if she only knew what it can do on desolate country roads) evil
    I havent really driven enough of the new cars to comment but the 306 is for me the ultimate daily drivers car. Ahh nice to have a fetish. Im sure there are cars that are faster through the corners, firmers, softer, but the 306 is just about perfect in my eyes.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    ahh I guess what the above means is that I prefer:

    mild understeer, which can be made into oversteer if the driver desires so.
    .
    1300cc's of jap buzzbox delivered the times below.

    EC 1:54.6 , Wakefield 1:13.15 , OP (short) 52.00 , OP GP 1:24.40


  9. #9
    Cal
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    Wild throttle open oversteer.
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  10. #10
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    tekkie:
    ahh I guess what the above means is that I prefer:

    mild understeer, which can be made into oversteer if the driver desires so.
    That would be my prefernce also...

    It means that even if you don't get the apex mm perfect, a slight ease of the throttle will tuck the nose in, and make you look (and feel) like a pro, without washing off to much corner speed.

    Fast, intuitive, safe(well kinda ) and predictable

    My pet hate is Roll oversteer....a japenese specialty (well it used to be)

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! briz205's Avatar
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    Hi,

    We all love french cars for their handling? So why are we pitting french cars against french cars?? Just seems strange that as soon as someone talks about a french car (205) beating another french car(fuego) we all go into battle against each other? Just seems odd since we all love cars than can actually handle?
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  12. #12
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    GTi Revolution:
    Hi,

    We all love french cars for their handling? So why are we pitting french cars against french cars??
    Cause it's fun and we all love our french cars...Its amazing what emotional attachment can do to a normally mild mannered car owner.

    Its what I love about french cars, they make you feel like getting in and driving, for no reason other than to drive, no destination is required.....They may not be powerful, they may not be sexy, but they become part of you...like a well lorn pair of shoes that you really should chuck out, but none of the new ones you try seem as comfy........unless its a 205GTi they're just shit

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Damien Gardner's Avatar
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    Everyone has their druthers, mine is for the neutral setup ahla R8-R10 rear eng/drv. When driving spiritedly the steering wheel is for pointing where you want to endup the GO pedal controls over/under steer. And similar to early fwd, never under any circumstances brake whilst turning. haven't driven any new fwd spiritedly.
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    mistareno:
    GTi Revolution:
    Hi,

    We all love french cars for their handling? So why are we pitting french cars against french cars??
    Cause it's fun and we all love our french cars...Its amazing what emotional attachment can do to a normally mild mannered car owner.

    Its what I love about french cars, they make you feel like getting in and driving, for no reason other than to drive, no destination is required.....They may not be powerful, they may not be sexy, but they become part of you...like a well lorn pair of shoes that you really should chuck out, but none of the new ones you try seem as comfy........unless its a 205GTi they're just shit
    They're the shit alright moit.....te shiznit that crap on your foolwaygoe

    doh!,
    I feel like i was channeling Pugjet for a moment there wink

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    For pure entertainment value, it has to be an R10S on 13 inch fatties and a tweaked motor. Power slides in this thing was a fine art to control (did a few 360s before I got the hang of it ) and a shitload of fun. The fatties reduced its tendancy for the swing axles to tuck under (at which point its all over and over you go... eek! ). I used to punt this thing all over Melbourne at silly speeds in my sillier days, pouring into a corner at full throttle, letting it understeer, and dropping the throttle quickly to make the nose tuck in obediantly, and pouring out of the corner with a little oversteer - yee hah!!. Poor mans porsche with super responsive handling/steering and feedback of all sorts, including a lot of noise .

    The Fuego with power steering and very good 195/55 15 tyres scared me a couple of times when I ran out of bravery long before it was thinking of letting go. Again, very responsive steering and suspension fairly firm but compliant enough to keep its feet firmly on the ground.
    An almost perfect setup, but a bit nose heavy (read power understeer) and a bit firm for daily use (in my book anyway). I did enjoy its ability to offer up oversteer on demand by dropping the throttle harshly mid corner, but of course it was supremly controllable.

    The R25 is just a bigger Fuego handling with a more compliant ride. Wont go through corners quite as fast simply beacause its carrying 150kg more, but for me it is great. Very responsive steering full of feedback, but with enough isolation to keep it from been tiring as I have found some to be. A great touring car with my favorite traits - cushy enough to spend the whole day in, but involving, responsive and capable enough to enjoy that day!

    I havnt driven any modern pugs or renos, but I imagine they have improved on this - making great handling that wont kill the kidneys. Am looking forward to an Mi16 next year...
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  16. #16
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    tekkie:
    and ultimately passed my mums test for "thats a very nice and quiet car" . (if she only knew what it can do on desolate country roads) evil
    Your car's quiet? eek!
    Musta been before the exhaust went on...

    Derek

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    u guys.....seriously though....
    i was asked (as per original post):
    What car have you driven that you thought best represented your ideal chassis preferences, and why?
    i answered : 205 gti ....i then listed some of its "qualities" (maybe not to everybodys taste) which I ADMIRED.....i then mentined some of its failings...ie.it can be tad tiring sometimes...

    I then went on to proceed to mention the famous FUEGO....i mention the fuego as i was very IMPRESSED by its suspension compromise (wHICH I BELIEVE IS A REASONABLY QUALIFIED STATEMNT AFTER OWNING SOME 30 ODD CARS AND HAVING DRIVEN HUNDREDS OF OTHERS)...so i dont need some journalist to tell me how good a fuego is or a little corrola gti IS....

    SO in many ways i would have like to have mentioned that the fuego covers some ground the 205 fails (ie comfort and day to day livability and possibly even reliability)....so NO ITS DEFINITELY NOT a grudge match...if anything it was meant to be complimentary....

    AFTER frogs4ever responded with what is a perfectly sensible and agreeable response i FELT that my reply demonstarted that although there are
    many RICE style cars out there with silly suspension set up.....not many (EVEN after what appear to be quality mods) can match the little 205gti....i think the 205gti is much more raw and its chassis just like fuegos is superb....but at the end of the day I did COMPARE STOCK vs STOCK (so lets not bring tyres, what if this what if that)....
    So since the issue of body roll was brought up in defence of handling prowess i thought it was only right to CHALLANGE the statement that a stock fuego with its body roll could not keep up with a STOCK gti through any given corner....
    pretty easy to understand....

    cheers
    dino

    PS...infact....my preference is very similar to misteranos and tekkies...light understeer (definitely not like the 505) which can be easily corrected by throtle....

  18. #18
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Cal:
    Wild throttle open oversteer.
    sure sure....isn't it having enough turning circle tomake that Woolies carpark?
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    mistareno:
    What do you consider to be the best handling traits for a car....

    What car have you driven that you thought best represented your ideal chassis preferences, and why?
    In the super car ranks, the Lotus Exige has what I (personal and subjective) thought was very balanced, the suspention, tyres, brakes, gear ratios were heavenly combined with the sweet K lump and beautifully worked together. Shame you need to be a contortionest to get in and out....lol
    In the real car terms, i love the MX5 SP (turbo, 6 speed)..... like above but just needs better brakes. Nice.

    As for traits, im finding myself moving away from power oversteer cars, (Ie GTs skyline) to neutral balanced machines (like GT2's), that give me a race feel, can take track day punishment and NOT brake something.... ironic coming from a S16 owner.lol

    Also a VERY worthy mention are Lotus super7's and R6 Yamaha.... but neither are very livale are they.

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    <small>[ 30 October 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: CHRI'S16 ]</small>
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    sorry again.

    <small>[ 30 October 2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: CHRI'S16 ]</small>
    ... ptui!

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Jez 405's Avatar
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    I dislike rock-solid suspension, I like my suspension travel and a bit of body roll. On that note, I can't stand a car that's poorly dampened that pitches, floats and yaws. Ideally, it should be able to deal with bumps mid-corner with little fuss. Well dampened IRS.

    I want direct, communicative steering, which does not necessarily mean heavy or quick. I want to feel the front wheels responding as I turn the wheel, not after.

    As for handling, I prefer a car to be neutral bordering on the oversteery at the limit. I can't stand cars with vague turn-in or excessive initial understeer which is why I dislike AWD's/4WD's, overpowered front drivers (usually anything more than 4 cylinders or 2.5 litres) and anything too nose-heavy (like cast iron V8's).

    The Jaguar XJ Series II and III's I think are absolutely brilliant. Firm damping, without being harsh. Very plush and well controlled with a good dose of body roll and travel but very little float. The steering is VERY light - probably overassisted - but is as accurate as any car I know. Once you get used to it, it's a joy to drive.

    My Peugeot 405 (non Mi16) is another great car. The steering is simply marvellous. Ride is reasonably plush, and well controlled. Almost no pitch under braking, body roll present (so you know when you're approaching it's limit) but not excessive. Brakes are more than adequate and the handling benign until you really push it, where you can hang the tail out a little. Brilliant.

    I thought you couldn't get much better than the 405, until I drove an E36 BMW 318iS. I've driven more than my fair share of E36's (mostly sedans, 4 and 6 cylinders), but the early 318iS Coupe without the airbag really shines. Everything the 405 can do, the 318iS does better and at higher speeds. Not having driven an M3, convertible or Compact, I think this is the best of the 3-series range. The 318i sedan I found a nicer steer than the 320i/325i, but the sedans and 6 cylinder models don't seem to have the same immediate response or steering feel of the 318iS. Handling wise, the sixes are still great cars to drive, but don't have that teensy extra that makes the 318iS so marvellous. But you can do wonderful powerslides in the 325.

    The 84 528i I've got isn't so happy. Can't complain about the steering, which is well weighted and direct, if rather slow. It's laughably oversteery especially in the wet, but rolls around corners like a yacht and the 70 series tyres on 14" rims really don't help matters. But I get such a kick winding up the big six to 5500rpm, I really don't care... Nothing some Koni shocks, Eibach springs, 15" wheels with 225/55 Yoko A539's, an LSD and a whole stack of $$$ can't fix.
    2_cents
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  22. #22
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    regardless of how good such a compromise might be....i d challange any fuego through (a reasonably smooth surfaced) corner with my 205 gti...i ve driven both hard....and the 205 WILL be faster through any given corner....
    Challenge accepted ... dance Infact lets put megabig $$$$ on it. I'll just get the motor in my brothers Fuego running again. I'm sure, make that bloody certain it'll whip the 205's arse snail .

    Did I mention it's a real cheapo that we got through the auctions years back with a re-built engine, obviously heavy duty suspension (as it's the firmest Fuego I've ever seen). Maybe I should mention the fact that it has 16" wheels shod with 215/45 16" tires eek!

    You lose your nerve before you lose that car, we've all had it 'skittering' across corners at incredibly insane speeds and it STILL never let go (and if it did you were going that bloody fast all was lost anyway whistle ).

    Here's a challange for your little 205, I pick the stretch of road, and I bet your 205 can't keep up with my bog standard 1963 ID19. 0-100 in about 45seconds, and 165 tires. I'm serious, no car is perfect in all situations, and I betcha my old '63 ID will beat the 205 down any stretch of road I chose roll_lau (that's if the little 205 actualy manages to make it through alive :p )

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  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    as for handling,

    no doubt, mild understeer into corners, the ability to tighten the line by lifting up, and certainly the ability to get the tail around on liftoff at the cars limits (but not before, you want the car to be safe for others to drive as well wink ).

    Of course, for strictly fun, gimme my old Morris Marina 2door coupe paddock bomb, nothing, I repeat NOTHING handles as badly as that thing, terminal understeer, or terminal overstear, depending entirely on the alignment of the planets at that particular time. The most unforgiving, un-predictable car known to man roll_lau The trick to making it predictable was 'flicking' the clutch in mid corner, ie: flat to the boards AT ALL TIMES (which always resulted in un-ending wheel spins and instability) 'flicking' the clutch in mid corner never failed to produce rather spectacular amounts of over steer (as opposed to terminal understreer which would switch to terminal oversteer with no warning or change to the cars behaviour).

    We should all have one head_ban

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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  25. #25
    Cal
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    Jez 405:
    Handling wise, the sixes are still great cars to drive, but don't have that teensy extra that makes the 318iS so marvellous.
    A mate of mine has an E36 318is with M3 suspension, M3 Wheels, good rubber and a few other tweaks here and there. I don't think I have been in any car that has higher cornering speed that this thing. That's a big call I know. It was truely astonishing.

    Cal.
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