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Thread: My Pug Dilemma

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    My Pug Dilemma

    Hey,

    I currently own a 1991 405 mi16, I love the car to bits but am considering upgrading next year..

    I'd like to keep my 405 but it has really hit me up with some bit repair bills in the two years i've owned it.

    It all started when I bought it, the guy I bought it off said "hopefully you won't have too many problems with it" in a sarcastic voice, followed by a Dr Evil laugh as i drive off in it.

    I knew there we're bound to be a few problems buying a car with 200,000kms on the clock... but anyway I liked the car and was willing to deal with any problems..

    After a week I noticed a coolant leak, I inspected and it was a plastic elbow under the engine, few days later theres another leak, this time it was the water pump. A new one had to be installed. I got a quote for $400 including timing belt change... My dad insisted on doing for me to save me some money.. arghhh big mistake :p

    He had no experience with twin cam engines b4 & rushed in like a monkey on speed. 4 hours it took him to change it.. then I tried to start it..
    nothing happened, my dads like, "try clutch start it". after 10 attempts failed, (the wheels werent budging for some strange reason).. turned out he didn't adjust the timing gears right and caused the all 16 valves to spear through the pistons & snap in half!!!

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    $5000 later, new engine, new hoses, new radiator, new clutch, new belts, new seals, new starter motor, new water pump, new catylitic convertor etc...

    the cars running good. the engine has a miss at idle bit & sounds like theres an air leak somewhere when im driving along, but i cant find it...

    All in all most of the problems we're due to my incompetant dad, but I can't blame him since he was just trying to help. he paid the $5000 by the way...

    Anyway, although i've experienced may problems with it so far, I just can't get over the way it drives, i've had it clocking 220 kph and the it was begging for another gear! *shush* my mate in his corrolla gti was but a spec in the mirror! the steering is so precise, & it drifts like a 180sx!, its really fun to drive!

    Next year i'll be looking for a newer pug, i like the 306 gti-6 & the 206 gti's, im only 20 so what can i expect for insurance on these, i can always insure under my dads name though, which of the two is the better option?
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Mods done to my car, 2 1/4 inch cat-back exhaust.

    k & n pod filter (was already on when i bought it i've hunter for a stock airbox but cant find one, if anyone knows where i can get one please help me!!!! as im aware they suck in hot engine bay air) but it makes the car sounds very evil under acceleration!

    thanks
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Even though I've got a GTi6 and are great fun, etc, etc.

    After the money you've(your Dad) spent and the extra cash you'll need to upgrade I don't think it's worthwhile unless you feel the Mi will fall apart anytime soon.

    Then as you mentioned your hit-up for insurance plus I like the convenience of having 4 doors and large boot space something I'm lacking dearly.

    My 2_cents

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    jason....sorry to hear about the misfortune u suffered with the mi16....it always freaks me out when i hear stories like this....your dad stuffing up your car...well i can sort of understand something like that happening but what pisses me off more than anything are THE VARIOUS MECHANICS who dont take pride in their work and after a few years of so called servicing they do as much damage in the long run....whichever car u decide to buy i d really sit down and figure a few things out.....do u want something new that u WILL NOT BE touching (except for the occasional wash)...if so i d recomend a clio maybe even a c3....if you wanted something bigger than the budget is obviously different.....maybe a 405 turbodiesel....(2 slow perhaps but a very sensible car nevertheless)....maybe an s16 or the gti6...2 expensive...???maybe even consider some of the OLDER cars...at least u might be able to perform basic servicing on them (not that u can not do that on a 16valve) but the insurance will be cheaper....here is a list of cars i would never say no 2: 205 gti, s16, 405mi16 or turbodiesel or just stock 405, 504, 306 range ..even base models have sufficient power and wonderfull chassis, etc etc...
    there are the non froggies (many great cars 2 choose from) but if u enjoy your driving and are passionate about the engineering characteristics of your vehicle of choice than the french are hard to pass....otherwise a 2 year old corolla will probably be as good as any acording to many of our members...ugh damn... wink

    cheers
    dino

    ps....or u could just keep the current car and make sure it gets serviced by somebody who truly knows and cares what they r doing... 2_cents

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts purrr-geot's Avatar
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    Hi welcome to the forum. Your horror story reminds me of our 505 gti, it was a great car but maintaining that required a seperate bank loan .

    A gti-6 would be my first choice for sure!! However the fact that there isnt alot on the market+it aint cheap+comprehensive insurance for a 20 year old would be quite costly!!

    Maybe a s16 or even an xsi, there are heaps of xsi on the market at the moment. If you want value for money all round though id take a 205gti ANYDAY!!!It will probs give you the biggest grin after every drive to (other than a gti-6)

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback fallas,

    i think a gti-6 is a fair bit out of my range disappro I like the renault clios, but i'd only want the sport. i couldnt settle for the base model... im one of those people who wants the best version of each car, thats why i kinda didnt go for a new car in the first place.. like my mate bought a brand new mitsubishi lancer mr, and my 405 spanks it!!

    how do the 306 xsi's go performance wise, also what is the difference between a 306 gti-6 & a 306 rallye, i was under the impression it was mearly the interior, but a peugeot salesman told me they're to different cars all together

    I thought about getting a 205 gti & slapping my mi16 motor in it, i got a full set of instructions & parts list off pugspares.co.uk
    but after all the work gone & money gone into my 405 it would be a stupid move at the moment.. unless i crash it one day & the engine survives.

    i really want to keep my 405 as long as i can but i do get the feeling something else is about to go. and its the mother of them all!!! gearbox. its very stubborn sometimes, i think the syncros are shot... and theres a bit of a rattle when the clutch pedal is let out, when depressed it goes away. i've heard that this is due to a worn bearing in the box..
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  7. #7
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    after what you have spent on it and gone through with it i'd put another box in it and keep it

    in reality you have basically a new car mechanically

    there will be a few little suspension things over the time but you are going to get that in any 2nd hand car really

    there are a few people who have put the Mi engine into a 205 and used the 205 box so there is bound to be a few Mi boxes lying around the traps

    personally if i had an Mi with a new motor i'd be keeping it
    especially if it's a series 1
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    true,

    the motors not exactly new though, i got it from parramatta prestige, their a euro auto wrecker. it was a half cut, they said the engine has 140,000kms on it.. the engine cost $2300

    im a bit suspicious about it too, there was a big dent in the cam cover of the engine when i got it. the dents protruding outwards suggesting it shot a valve or something, my mechanic was a bit curious about it too, but said the engine runs alright so he just slapped it in... i think its had a hard life & been rebuilt..

    I wish i knew someone with another 405 mi16 so i could compare how theres runs to mine...
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  9. #9
    Cal
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    dino:
    jason....sorry to hear about the misfortune u suffered with the mi16....it always freaks me out when i hear stories like this....your dad stuffing up your car...well i can sort of understand something like that happening but what pisses me off more than anything are THE VARIOUS MECHANICS who dont take pride in their work and after a few years of so called servicing they do as much damage in the long run....whichever car u decide to buy i d really sit down and figure a few things out.....do u want something new that u WILL NOT BE touching (except for the occasional wash)...if so i d recomend a clio maybe even a c3....if you wanted something bigger than the budget is obviously different.....maybe a 405 turbodiesel....(2 slow perhaps but a very sensible car nevertheless)....maybe an s16 or the gti6...2 expensive...???maybe even consider some of the OLDER cars...at least u might be able to perform basic servicing on them (not that u can not do that on a 16valve) but the insurance will be cheaper....here is a list of cars i would never say no 2: 205 gti, s16, 405mi16 or turbodiesel or just stock 405, 504, 306 range ..even base models have sufficient power and wonderfull chassis, etc etc...
    there are the non froggies (many great cars 2 choose from) but if u enjoy your driving and are passionate about the engineering characteristics of your vehicle of choice than the french are hard to pass....otherwise a 2 year old corolla will probably be as good as any acording to many of our members...ugh damn... wink

    cheers
    dino

    ps....or u could just keep the current car and make sure it gets serviced by somebody who truly knows and cares what they r doing... 2_cents
    I think that might just be the longest sentence ever written. wink

    Sorry to hear of your bad luck. I would just keep the thing now you have spent all that money on it. What is left that could go wrong? You know what has been done to the car now. BTW, how did the engine rebuild cost $5000? Just curious.

    Cal.
    1995 Mazda MX5 - 2F Race Car
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    5000 grand inlcuded, second hand engine, various hoses, belts, seals & gaskets. radiator refurbishment, clutch kit, & labour...
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Cal,
    just curious, what type of oil do you run in your mi16 & how often do you do changes?
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Mitch Mi16's Avatar
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    I almost Cried when i read this. blush

    If all goes well on the weekend, and the report back from the NRMA check is good, i'll Be buying my mates Series 1 Mi16, next week sometime.
    My Mate called me last week, and said i'm getting a new car, you want it the pug..

    So stuck with the dilema, seeing as i wasn't gonna buy until early next year. I bit the bullet, and thought a deal this sweet wouldn't come around again.. Fingers crossed all goes well, and then i'll be a Happy Chappy.

    I'll PM you if all Goes well, and maybe we could meet up sometime..

    Greetz,

    Mitch
    THE MAD PUGGA

    1989 405 Mi16 (PGT-405)

  13. #13
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    One thing I will never understand about people and their cars...

    How they will conclude that spending a bunch of money on a car is reason to sell it!

    Like pugrambo said, all that might cost money is a gearbox.

    Keep the thing!

  14. #14
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    Hi Jason,

    I think the same as Ray - if you've spent the money and know there's not much else that can go wrong, why sell the 405? I'd be keeping it...

    Jason20:
    how do the 306 xsi's go performance wise, also what is the difference between a 306 gti-6 & a 306 rallye, i was under the impression it was mearly the interior, but a peugeot salesman told me they're to different cars all together.
    There's not *that* much difference.
    The XSi and the (Australian) Rallye are essentially the same car. The Australian Rallye was the runout model at the end of the 306 model run. The European "306 Rallye" is a GTi6 which is completely stripped to reduce weight. Having said that, there's not that much difference between a 2.0L 16v 306XSi or (Australian) Rallye and the 306GTi6 up to about 4500rpm. After that, the GTi6 has just that little bit of extra get up and go (and it redlines at 7000ish rpm whereas the 306XSi/Rallye engine redlines at 6000rpm.

    I'm exceptionally happy with my 306XSi I did nearly buy a 306 Rallye but it was priced far too high and they weren't willing to negoiate at all....

    Having said all that, I do still think you should keep the 405Mi16!

    Derek

  15. #15
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Ray Bell:
    One thing I will never understand about people and their cars...

    How they will conclude that spending a bunch of money on a car is reason to sell it!

    Like pugrambo said, all that might cost money is a gearbox.

    Keep the thing!
    Couldn't agree more. Better to get some value and pleasure out of what has been spent. I'd only get rid of it if the rest of the car is rubbish.

    What do they say? "Better the devil you know..."

    JohnW
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  16. #16
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Jason20:


    i really want to keep my 405 as long as i can but i do get the feeling something else is about to go. and its the mother of them all!!! gearbox. its very stubborn sometimes, i think the syncros are shot... and theres a bit of a rattle when the clutch pedal is let out, when depressed it goes away. i've heard that this is due to a worn bearing in the box..
    Jason,

    The fact that you say "sometimes" suggests it's not the synchros and the noise with the clutch pedal to me sounds like a throw out bearing that really should have been done when the engine was out. mallet
    I would suspect given the symptoms with the gearbox that the clutch cable needs adjusting and possibly your gearbox oil level is way to buggery below what it should be. I know, you've probably been told it's OK, everybody gets told that, but I'd suggest a complete oil change (approx 1.8 to 2.1 litres of 75W-80 gear oil with 125 ml of Nulon G70 added to it should sort the trouble out.
    If the motor's OK, your car should be good for at least another 200K klms...enjoy it & save your money. Find a decent honest mechanic if you aren't into DIY, that's always a good starter.

    Alan S 2_cents cheers!
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice,

    Mitch, sounds good. Once you drive the mi16 for a while you'll become obsessed with it! I'll definetly come cruisin with you.

    When I first bought my pug my mates with their rice chariots we're all bagging it out, now they all envy it! they really are fantastic cars.

    I know it does sound stupid to sell just because i've spent alot of money on it...
    I think i might keep it then... at least till im 25 and insurance is cheaper...

    Alan s,

    the gearbox oil was changed by my mechanic twice & the clutch cable was adjusted properly.. i exaggerated a bit when saying it crunches, because it only really does when its still cold, i guess thats normal,or occasionally when dropping down to second..... my gearstick is very notchy but thats probably to do with linkage wear & tear/adjustment hey?
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts purrr-geot's Avatar
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    Yeah jason stick with it man.

    My dads biggest regret was selling his 505 gti for only $500. It may have been costly to maintain & he spent HEAPS to keep it going but the driving satisfaction it would give you just driving to the shops and back was priceless. Heck peugeot seats are the most comfortable things ever and a proper justification to keep the car

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! Mitch Mi16's Avatar
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    Well Jason, I'll let you know. I just have to look over the NRMA inspection report with my parents and if it's all good, i'll have the car next week...

    I was addicted after i first got into the passanger seat. I had a quick drive last Sunday, but not enough to get the blood pumping.. So fingers crossed..
    THE MAD PUGGA

    1989 405 Mi16 (PGT-405)

  20. #20
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Jason,

    What brand, grade & type of oil was put in the box?
    The reason I ask is that some mechanics have more theories than Albert Einstein (mostly unproven) about what should go in.
    I recently struck a guy from Oz on a board in the UK who was having trouble changing gears, similar symptoms to yourself, on a BX (same or similar box) and it turned out his mechanic was using Dexron 3 in it. This is an ATF with friction enhancers. Another favourite is to use heavier grades and this also will create problems.
    These boxes are particularly troublefree which is why I am sceptical about the causes of the problems.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! mi16_weapon's Avatar
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    howdy Jason, good to see someone else thats caught the mi16 bug. I first fell in love with em when i was about 14 when they first came out, it took me untill 2 months ago to get my own!!

    I dont know if itll help, but if you wanna meet up and compare cars, thatd be cool, just send me a mail and let me know. Id love to see what your air filters like anyway, been looking at doing something like that...
    1992 mi16
    Toyota aware driver
    there are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots..

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Not to sure which type of box oil my mechanic used Alan...
    he changed it twice because after the first time I took it back to him because it was notchy & crunching, he said he'd try something a bit thicker, i noticed a bit of an improvement but it still felt stubborn.. i've also had a lot of problems with oil leaking from the gearbox.. they've tried sealing it manytimes & finally got it sealed after about the 5th time i took it back. they used this stuff that looks like liquid nails.. maybe its a a touch low on oil, its a pain in the but though, because theres no dip stick to check the depth... i guess i should really empty it and refill it.. and stop whinging!

    Mitch,
    which year model is it and how much are you paying for it? I paid $8600 for mine, its a 1991 pov pack version (no sunroof) it had 192,000 kms on it.. this was two years ago.. I paid too much,i've seen 1993 series 1's with low k's for $8000 in the trader. how come your mates selling it? cust curious.

    Keep me posted if you get it buddy,

    Jason
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  23. #23
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Jason,

    Castrol EMS80 is the oil. Anything any thicker & you will have problems with it changing.
    I've seen boxes with as little as 300ml in them & still not noisy, just strange changing similar to your description.
    Where has it been leaking? Using stuff like liquid nails to stop it sounds a bit howsyerfather eek! eek! Normally, if they're going to leak it is from the seals on the driveshaftes; anywhere else is a total mystery really.
    To drain, be careful you remove the drain plug which points towards the rear of the car and not the retaining bolt for the reverse idler shaft and fill (approx 2 litres) through & up to the level of the level bolt on the end of the gearbox.
    As you're in Sydney, I'd suggest you look at saving up for a trip to Paul Vassalo and I'm a bit surprised some of the Pug guys from down there haven't suggested this before now. mallet

    Alan S cheers!
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Alan,

    Thanks again for your help. I didn't realise the oil selection was all that important. I'll take your advice and put some Castrol Ems80 in it.

    My Mechanic only used a liquid sealant because the leak was coming from where the gearbox bolts onto the engine or something or other, he said he would have to remove the gearbox to change the gasket, (this was just after they did the engine change) so I wasnt going to fuss, he said he could seal it with this special stuff without removing anything. it looks bodgy but who looks under there anyway right wink

    jason
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! Jason20's Avatar
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    Oh yeah,

    I got that Paul Vassalo guys details off a webpage who recommended him. Should i take my car to him for inspection, his workshop is close (kinda) to where i live... will he charge an arm & a leg?
    1990 series 1, 405 Mi16 <-- Sold
    1998 Nissan 180sx TypeX, 2lt, rwd Turbo.

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