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  1. #1
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    CVT Transmissions

    To the best of my knowledge, at of yet none of the Frogmobiles have CVT transmissions or have had CVTs. DAF started the trend of decades ago, but they've never really threatened the standard gearboxes.

    Was helping a friend get a car today and we stopped at Honda to look at the Jazz. Drove the 1.3 CVT, which was the first CVT car I've driven - quite a different experience. Those who drive French autos will probably understand my description - it's like an auto with one gear that seems to have a torque converter whose clutch is gradually locking up - just this whirring, revs staying up there, climbing a little, but the speed growing much faster.

    On the downside - CVTs don't seem to give you that kick in the back that you would with a manual - no clutch dumping here (then again, a base 1.3 isn't exactly tyre burning material). Instead you just get a smooth stream of continuous acceleration. Can't accuse the car of choosing dumb ratios either - cruising at 60, it'd go down as low as 1500 or so (fine by me, no reason to rev higher), but as soon as you prod the throttle to accelerate, ratios would change straight away.

    What do people think of the CVTs - they're quite interesting. Any other experiences?

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    Oh yeah, I'll get her looking at the baby frogs. But probably best to look at the C3, at least it comes in the colours she likes More seriously, after sitting in the Jazz, the Clio's got no hope in terms of spaciousness, but the C3's got that airy feel up front. The packaging is simply brilliant - the styling might take a hit, but the packaging really is great.

    Have to say though, the Jazz gets its tyres squealing very early, and I think Honda got Logitech or someone to design the steering - feels like a computer game, pretty much zilch feel when you get into the car.

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Given the french mastery of current autobox technology, I'd probably prefer they stay away from CVTs wink
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    Last edited by DTwo; 22nd August 2011 at 04:50 AM.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Mid year the C3 will get the 'Sensodrive' gearbox which is the latest version of Selespeed from Alfa/Fiat. It will only come with the 1.6 though, whereas the 1.4 has a conventional Autobox - French logic at its best?

    Audi now have a CVT on their less powerful V6 engines - not sure if you can get it here, but the reports seem favourable. But I like the idea if the new box in the Audi TT - semi or full auto with 2 clutches - one for the odd numbered gears one for the even - can change gear in .3 Msecs - according to the specs - just never want it to break down!

    Paul
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    honda had a cvt in their civics at one stage (i think..i m not sure if cvt was the correct term)they had a belt set up wia a conical transfer ...i dont know much about them...i did drive one or two at one stage but never long enough to get any kind of feel for it...all i can say is that it was very progressive and smooth....
    personally i cannot see any real need for them, i do like the current autos that offer the manual shift option....and in reg. to selesspeed, it seemed that there was as many people that liked it as there was that didn t...

    cheers
    dino

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! billtran's Avatar
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    The main stumbling block with CVTs is designing a belt which could handle the amount of torque in a larger engine - which is why they are mostly confined to small cars like the Honda Jazz and Nissan Micra.

    Audi have more durable design but it can only handle a maximum of 300Nm of torque (which is why it is only available for the 2.8L V6). In theory, the CVT has an infinite number of ratios but the Audi CVT computer is programmed for 6 ratios. The only problem with driving with a CVT is the 'shifts' are seamless so there is no feeling of 'kickdown'.

    The Williams FW14 was fitted with a CVT but was banned even before the car was tested. It would have been interesting to see how the engineers were able to overcome the torque.
    You're not paranoid if everyone hates you.

  6. #6
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    They've been around since the sixties... and this is what one looked like then...

    <img src="http://members.atlasf1.com/raybell/pics/daftrans.jpg" alt=" - " />

    This is fitted to a F3 Brabham, as I recall.

  7. #7
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    The Citroenistés out there will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the C3's Selectronic was a stepped CVT - a CVT that selects ratios. I know there are a couple of these in production as well as the Audi (Ford Fiesta?) but I haven't taken enough interest to remember. I remember driving a Honda City courtesy car a few years ago on which the auto had that 'single ratio sound' like a CVT as it accelerated. BTW I also just read that the Torotrak 'CVT' from the sixties is being resurrected as well - a clever variable transmission that doesn't use belts and pulleys, but steel wheels that vary the diameter they contact (I think). These can handle big torque and are more efficient than an auto so are being used for 4WD's.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Paul Smith's Avatar
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    Hi Stuey,

    No - the Sensodrive (that name - what were they thinking wink ) is definitely a conventional manual - PSA license it (as the do the HDi technology) from FIAT. Odd thing is that FIAT is developing all this great stuff but quite unable to persuade anyone outside Italy to buy their cars .

    For a good explanation see here.

    <a href="http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/c3/sensodrive/page1.html" target="_blank">Citroenet on Sensodrive</a>

    Paul
    Paul Smith

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    1974 G Special 1220


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  9. #9
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    Thanks Paul. One comment - CAR reckon it's excellent, and one of the only paddle gearboxes that works for a small engined car.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  10. #10
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I had a CVT Micra and loved it (wish I never sold it, really). It feels like there is clutch slip, but you get used to the noise, the car is not being less responsive. It was such a fun car to have, throw the car into a corner and floor it and you're in the right ratio, no down shift/heel toeing, no waiting for an auto to kick down. You realise that a conventional auto is so inefficient in comparison, the kick down of an auto wastes time and often puts you in the wrong rev range. A CVT is perfect all of the time. It's always in the right ratio.

    I'm curious as to how the Mini drives with one. The Motoring mags have panned it, but I'm still awfully curious.

    The previous Honda Civic had a VTI Sedan wih it. All other Civics had a normal conventional auto. It had pseudo torque converter in itto give it creep like a normal auto, so people wouldn't be freaked out by the CVT's feature of dropping into neutral when stationary. I thought that feature was awesome as it saved fuel and improved the smoothness of the car at idle,(little engines are pretty rough still) it's just you needed to handbrake or be aware of the roll on hills.

    A lotof manufacturers are building them, I htink they will replace many standard autos in due course.
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  11. #11
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    GTI124:
    .....You realise that a conventional auto is so inefficient in comparison, the kick down of an auto wastes time and often puts you in the wrong rev range.....
    Something an enthusiast driver should almost not even know about.

  12. #12
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    motor bikes were also fitted with even further back
    i have pics here of a bike built in the 20's that had it
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  13. #13
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    I'll be seeing how the 1.5 Jazz is with the CVT - the 1.3 was a bit dozy, but very very smooth acceleration which probably contributed to this dozy sensation - one of the reasons I feel manuals feel faster is because the acceleration isn't as smooth. I've been in a manual & an auto of the same 0-100, and the manual will always feel faster, even if it isn't.

    I know the previous Civic sedan did have CVT as an option.

    Have to say, I like the idea. Although I worry about what funny things a French manufacturer would do with a CVT. Or how long a French CVT would last

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  14. #14
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    Ray Bell:
    Something an enthusiast driver should almost not even know about.
    Speaking of which, I had a go in an AUII Falcon yesterday and was pleasantly surprised that Ford have finally made an auto shifter with small, light flicks between speeds (when used manually). It was really quite good to use...

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  15. #15
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I'm enthusiastic when it comes to CVTs

    Justin, you're right, it's that smooth sensation that fools you into thinking the car isn't travelling when it really is. Kick down speeds are very impressive at any speed. I have an article where the compared the Micra Manual and CVTs against it's competition at the time and there was daylight between it and the CVT's competitors in kick down times. It even beat the manual kick downs, as I recall.
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  16. #16
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Gee these Micras are good little cars

    dino, where are you roll_lau

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  17. #17
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Micra is the same as 206, isn't it? roll_lau roll_lau
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  18. #18
    Tadpole
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    i m here....hehehheheh.....looks like this MICRA will haunt me for the rest of my life....i think i might have pissed of some renault guys as well...
    ahh well....

    cheers
    dino

    ps...I must admit when i was looking at the C3 at the show i remebered our debate and i still could not help but think about the fact that the C3 looked SO BIG compared to the images of the micra that still haunt me....

    pss. at least i m not mentioning the S**B word...
    what the hell was that about????

    psss...have a look at my profile..

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    What happened to the original Dino?
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  20. #20
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    very funny Dino. Why did u create a new profile though?
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    heheh..stupidity i guess...i had real problems getting onto the REply page today ..so i created a new profile thinking the forum might alredy be a bit alergic to my name....stupid really...although i managed to finally post a reply...i m not sure if it was funny enough to be worth it...the moderators probably dont think well of such action either...creates false statistics, i guess...
    i found (accidentally) that the reply page loads much better when my firewall is switched of...ANY REASON FOR THIS?WHY is the reply page so hard to get onto sometimes...???

    cheers
    dino

  22. #22
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    I saw that dino2 profile in the recent visitors list, and I was wondering whether we had a imposter posing as a troll on our hands

    Still, the profile was funny. You should've changed your username to "micramate" or something

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
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  23. #23
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    "I Luuuurve Micras" would've been good wink

    It was humourous enough, and you had your name on the recently joined list for a while....15 minutes of fame wink
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    I believe that the MGF was available in England with a CVT that could be used manually with 6 preset ratios controlled from the steering wheel or left in auto mode. I am not sure if it was available here or not.
    Manuals are the best anyway unless you live and work in the city (Taxis etc.). Autos are nice in traffic, but they can be frustrating on the open road
    Pugs Rule!

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  25. #25
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    For those technically interested, here's the supposedly excellent Torotrak 'infinitely variable transmission' that's recently been resurrected...

    <a href="http://www.torotrak.com/technical_papers.html" target="_blank">http://www.torotrak.com/technical_papers.html</a>

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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