New Cars vs Old Cars
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  1. #1
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    New Cars vs Old Cars

    Over various threads, I've certainly noticed that there are a loyal band of old car supporters. There are people here that love the new cars too and then those who like both.

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    I've read in threads that manufacturers have only just made cars quieter and safer, and otherwise haven't made any real progress - the old ones were more fun to drive. I think a reasonable definition of an old car is a pre '90s vehicle. Even cars from the early 90's are starting to feel old in my eyes I guess in my eyes, pre 306 is old. Pre Xantia is old. Pre Laguna I is old

    I have to say, I love new cars. I think engineering has improved over the years and it's only natural that cars improve. I'd like to think in 20 years that manufacturers have done something better than just cut a few decibels off at 100km/h.

    So, which do you prefer, new or old cars? Try to choose a position and don't sit on the fence unless you really think that way. Why do you think new or old cars are better? Where do you think manufacturers have made progress over the years?

    Let the posts begin!

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
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  2. #2
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    '90s is old?

    You have to get out more...

    My various 504s are not in any way old to me, though maybe there are some small points about them that date them.

    But they handle and stop well, have comfort to burn, like their predecessor the 404. Which was a truly great car.

    No, I think you have to go back to the sixties to find a genuinely 'old' car... and then it would be a carryover from the fifties.

    Unless, of course, you include BMC's mighty Marina.

  3. #3
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Well, there is a continuum. It probably goes something like this:

    Brand New
    Very New
    Pretty New
    Fairly New
    Not So New
    A Little Old
    Oldish
    Bloody Old
    Damn Ancient
    Prehistoric


    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Pug307:
    Well, there is a continuum. It probably goes something like this:

    Brand New
    Very New
    Pretty New
    Fairly New
    Not So New
    A Little Old
    Oldish
    Bloody Old
    Damn Ancient
    Prehistoric

    And then add oz built to the bottom of that list :p
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  5. #5
    pur-john, not pew-john! peujohn's Avatar
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    I drive a car which most people would call "old" but it's so capable and competent it makes plenty of "new" cars look pretty stupid. I've recently been in such vehicles as mid-nineties Corollas, 121s, Subarus, and various other Japanese cars. The 504 has more interior space, better seats, bigger boot, better ride, handling and steering, less road and engine noise, etc etc. It's also been proven to be very safe in an accident. If it had more power and a few convenience feature such as central locking and electric mirrors it would be just unbeatable. Add to the mix reliability, ease of maintenance and cheap parts, what more could you want? No wonder 504s are still being built.

    John
    John W

    1979 Peugeot 504 GTI 2.2 litre 5 speed - 72 kW at the wheels

    1974 Peugeot 504 TI
    - now on the road

    2009 Peugeot 407 HDI wagon - family car

    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



  6. #6
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    At the Newcastle Hill Climb, held recently on the Oct. long weekend, I couldn't help noticing that the majority of cars were pre '90. There were a few WRX's but nothing else post '90. What does that tell you?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  7. #7
    nJm
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    That people don't want to risk their lovely new cars paint work?
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  8. #8
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    It's a fair question but since this is a board for (mainly) enthusiasts the poll results will tend to be skewed. The great unwashed would have a different outlook. mallet

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    There are crappy new cars and there are crappy old cars

    From a french car perspective there hasn't really been a better time since the 60-70's?.....

    Peugeot, Renault and Citroen are selling.....there are quite a few decent models of each available and most of them are genuinely good cars (or at least competitive) compared to their peers.....

    anyone who doesn't like them now can buy them in a couple of years and grumble about new cars then

  10. #10
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    Bit off topic, but are you still looking for cars to replace your 205 with Dave?
    Tim

    2013 BMW 320i Touring M-Sport xDrive (Estoril Blue)

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Sergetov:
    Bit off topic, but are you still looking for cars to replace your 205 with Dave?
    hey there sergetov,

    Nahh, for now i'm just enjoying the 205 and channeling money into a place to live etc....

    I think i'll end up supplementing the 205 with something.....iduno....the word volvo keeps popping into my head roll_lau

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts silverexec's Avatar
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    I agree with peujohn, I'm annoyed when people ask me "why do you like old cars?" Just because something is new, it doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

    I mainly prefer older cars as I tend to like their styling over newer cars, as well as surprising people with the abilities of my older car in terms of handling and performance, as well as features in my car that people expect are only available on new cars (like electric windows, A/C, etc).

    They're easy to work on myself (I don't need to download software for my auto transmission :p ) and my Pug is quite inexpensive to maintain. I think they're more likely to last longer than newer cars as well.

    Richard
    - Richard

    Now: 405 SRI D70 '93
    - 2.0L manual
    Earlier: 505 GTi Executive '85
    - hence "Silver Exec"...
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    I voted for old.

    My definition of "old" is anything the predates ABS, ESP, airbags, EBFD and sunry other electonic "aids". My fear is that in 10 or so years, when the countless sensors, integrated circuits, computers, solenoids and stepper motors, scattered throughout modern cars start failing, these cars are going to become horrendously expensive nightmares to keep running. And it's not hard to imagine safety being seriously jepordised by failure of some of these items.

    As such, I'm predicting a "back to the basics" movement in market demands and car design, starting in about 10 years. I wouldn't mind betting that cars which, in the spirit of the 504, depend on simple but superior mechanical engineering fundamentals for their overall performance, comfort and safety, rather than electronic trickery, will lead this renaissance.
    2004 Clio Expression Verve 4sp auto -
    1984 Fuego GTX 5 speed (now a write off) -
    1976 504 GL auto (sold)

    French cars, Australian wine.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    hmmmm....pre nineties is old????man.,,,talk about ELITIST....me i like them old (cars that is)....but i m not exactlly talking mid eighties magnas or comodores.....i mean50s 60s 70s....they made some great cars back then....old mercs, lancias, just about every french car was great....think 404s 504s ds...etc etce...hell....i still love my 205gti and the s16(will see) and i m sure many will ,in thirty years, wish to have one of these classics....

    TO BE QUITE FRANK...i hate those people (i come across them often)that tell u that they drive an old car and u look outside and the THING is only three years old.....i think thats a load of crap and these types usually do not know which side their fuel tank filler is let alone where the spare resides.....hasle free motoring i know...but also consumed by drivers who after a breakdown (probably due to their negligence) will say...that the merc is a pile of crap and the hyndai sonata was much more reliable....

    at the end of the day...if i had to travel from melbourne to darwin...i know which i d pick....an older vehicle for sure....maybe a 69 merc or a 404...i know they d get me there...

    cheers
    dino

    PS...before i forget....
    am i right to assume that if u own and like a vehicle which is NEW now.....then u should also like that vehicle in 10, 20,30 years time ....its the same car????right.....

    maybe the reason i like some of the older cars is because my dad was a car fanatic who drove and owned many many different cars....so although i was a kiddie in the seventies....the cars of that era are WELL imprinted....and so r the many good memories that are attached to them....

  15. #15
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    dino:
    am i right to assume that if u own and like a vehicle which is NEW now.....then u should also like that vehicle in 10, 20,30 years time ....its the same car????right.....
    I can distinguish between liking and preferring something - as I've said, I believe engineering has advanced over the years (as it darn well should).

    You can still like the car, but chances are the car's successor is a better car overall. You still like the previous model, but you prefer the newer one.

    I've been fortunate to have good access to current cars and I enjoy trying the latest models. You can really tell where engineers have made progress and as a result, I prefer newer cars.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  16. #16
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    I was in 2 minds when submitting my vote.

    I like newer cars when it comes to cold weather starting, seemingly less fuss motoring, air conditioning & effective heating & electric convieniences. When I lift the bonnet of a new car I am confronted with a bunch of what does that do's.

    The quality older car is to me more fun to drive taking you closer to the driving experience where a newer car insulates you somewhat.
    When that little engine is revving I can see in my head what is occuring under the hood, & if anything fails, a fix seems a simpler task for DIY.

    If I had the choice in todays market, with pricing in sync & if it were possible, I'd buy a brand new late 60's or 70's model car as opposed to what is available now up to the $30K bracket.
    Problem is, a D Citroen could be worth over 50K -$60K Perhaps a GS Pallas then wink

  17. #17
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    peujohn:
    I drive a car which most people would call "old" but it's so capable and competent it makes plenty of "new" cars look pretty stupid. I've recently been in such vehicles as mid-nineties Corollas, 121s, Subarus, and various other Japanese cars. The 504 has more interior space, better seats, bigger boot, better ride, handling and steering, less road and engine noise, etc etc. It's also been proven to be very safe in an accident. If it had more power and a few convenience feature such as central locking and electric mirrors it would be just unbeatable. Add to the mix reliability, ease of maintenance and cheap parts, what more could you want? No wonder 504s are still being built.

    John
    Is it really fair to compare a 504 with a 121? I don't think the 504 was the bargain basement car of its time. What are the dimensions & capacities of a 504 compared to the modern benchmarks you are using?

    A 504 is about 4.49m long correct? A 121 is 3.8m long! Compare a 504 to the shorter Honda Civic hatch currently sold and then tell me which car has better packaging. Packaging has improved leaps and bounds over the years, and it's not all due to a growth in external dimensions. A 504 is bigger than a Corolla and Impreza.

    I'd be surprised if a 504 has less engine/road noise than a modern equivalent - I think new cars have made huge leaps and bounds in refinement.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    justin....u r right ofcoures,....there are many wonedrfull cars on the market and many like the volvos wink are very very solidly built (sure to last many decades)....BUT u have to also FACTOR in the fact that many of the older cars WERE so ADVANCED for their time.....u only need to mention the ds.....let alone many other advancements made by the europens that didn t become mainstream till mid eighties....irs, fuel injection, turbochrging,etc etc etc....here is a simple one for u?: i owned a 75 compact which back then had a twin cam motor.....WHEN exactly did falcon start building them???hell even toyota was there almost two decades ago.....

    when it comes to the engineering aspect....well really???besides the many many TECHNO/ELECTRICAL ADDONS....structural design hasn t changed that much putting aside styling differences and the humble crumble zone...i d be really interested how many of the current technologies could simply be INSTALLED onto an older model and HEY PRESTO we have a RETRO 504....

    cheers
    dino

  19. #19
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    I think the progress that has taken place in cars has been largely negative. Car's are more like appliances than ever before. I really don't want to drive a fridge.

    A car can have character and yet still be a great car with no major drawbacks.

    So many cars these days are designed to appeal to the widest possible audience.

    And from an engineering viewpoint, I think the key word has been evolution rather than revolution.
    Engines have evolved.
    Packaging has evolved.
    Suspensions have evolved (often to fit the packaging)
    Braking has evolved (ABS, EBD, AYC, traction control tec)

    But IMHO there has been no adoption of completely new technology in the past 20 years.... unless you view a Toyota Prius desirable??

    On the last Aussiefrogs cruise that I went on, I had no trouble in keeping up with ANY of the NEW cars except for the WRX, who blew the door handles of the rest of us in a straight line.

    I followed the Clio Sport and was amazed as it's rear wheels left the ground and the rear of the car skipped sideways, whilst my car felt as solid as a rock over the same piece of road.

    I followed Pug307 and noticed that it would hoist the unloaded rear wheel skyward at the first sign of a tight corner. I also watched it nearly turn itself inside out when the driver (not Pug307) backed of to prevent the front washing out on a highspeed corner (quite amusing in retrospect)

    My car would have had by far the least power out of any car there, yet (from my view) it would have been the easiest to drive at the pace we were travelling (except for the WRX.)

    My cars styling may not appeal to everyone, but it still turns heads 20 years on...I wonder how many of todays cars will do the same..

    PS...Atleast the 307 tells you how much mileage your getting....I have to make do with a fuel gauge......Damn antique

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! vanderaj's Avatar
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    I like new cars for getting from A to B and driving. Eminently more comfortable, far safer, quieter, fuel efficient and relaxing than older cars. Modern cars make ordinary drivers safe, and good drivers look legendary.

    I have a 33 year old VW Type 3 fastback and that thing is just plain scary on the freeway. I honestly don't know how I drove at freeway speeds in my old Beetle (my first car) as the stopping distances are truly appalling, and the interior is simply out to kill you.

    But I also like the look of older cars. One day I'll own a Karmann Ghia and a DS. Just need a house with a much larger garage so I can breed cars.

    I just don't want to be in them and be involved in an incident.

    Andrew
    2003 C3 Exclusive Panoramique auto

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    Well, I have a 403, a 404, a 604, an Austin 1100, a series 1 Land Rover, and a share in a Morris Minor. I wonder which way I should vote
    Dad runs a '69 Transit, my brother has a XY Falcon, and we are restoring a Humber Vogue as well.
    The newest car I have ever owned is my '80 604, and the newest car we have ever had in my memory was an '82 Landcruiser (we did live WAY out in the bush at the time, a Subaru couldn't get up our driveway, and the 'cruiser didn't always either).
    I quite like the 405, 205, and the 306, but there is nothing to beat lifting the bonnet and knowing what everything does.
    Pugs Rule!

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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts TroyO's Avatar
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    I really do like my Xsara, it's a fantastic car to drive, but I do miss the simplicity and the ease of servicing of older cars. The Superbrava never went to a workshop for any work, bar getting the valve seats reground once when the head was off. I suppose I had the advantage that my Dad had years of experience working on Italian cars, but it never had to plug into a computer to diagnose problems. Parts were relatively cheap and available, I never had to get parts ordered from overseas. There are none of the electronic aids, safety features and other gadgets that with age can go wrong, and are costly to fix (if they can be) or replace. And most new cars seem so sterile is comparison, they are so quiet, isolated from the outside. I miss the buzz of the engine and the exhaust note intruding in the cabin.

    On the flipside, there is the warranty, the space and the fact that the Xsara outperforms, outhandles, outrides and outstops the Superbrava. It's is safer and has better load carrying capacity. Neither is it a pig to start and run in cold mornings. It also has none of little niggling electrical problems.

    Troy.

  23. #23
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    I'm sometimes astounded when talking to people about their cars.

    The whole attitude of 'old' when applied to cars less than a decade old simply defies my understanding.

    Sometimes I look back, though, and see some of the rudimentary things on older cars. Things you'd never see today.

    Like the clutch rod on the early 203... designed to fail, surely? Or the faith held in some of the nuts and bolts of yesteryear...

    There's no doubt that more thought is given today (and for the past forty years, probably) to little items like that.

    But I remember a conversation I had with a guy at Lakeside once, the owner of an Austin A95. "I can see thirty years improvement between an A-model Ford and this car," he said, "but I can't see thirty years between this and the latest Falcon or Holden."

    To a large degree he was right, but there's been a quantum leap since then. Car design has improved out of sight.

    But that leap has been to one side, with front wheel drive taking over...

    I currently own the newest cars I'll ever own. I guess I'll go to electronic injection some time, but I don't see much else I'll be changing.

  24. #24
    nJm
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    I don't have anywhere near the same experience most on this board have, and my 505 is probably the oldest car I have driven. For ownership experience I'd always prefer a new car. Not because I believe they will be more reliable but because you have a warranty to pay for everything (Justin should agree with this!). Nearly everything that can wear out has been replaced in my car over the past year. I am now fairly confident that if I treat it well it should keep going for another decade or two (I can not say the same about my parent's 9 year old Magna V6).

    When it comes to actually driving them, sure at times I'd love to be able to just hop into a powerful automatic car with power steering - driving slowly up a hill during peak hour would be a great time to have this. However I don't think either new or old cars are more fun. I've driven some ordinary new cars, and some very ordinary old cars. I drove a 1978 W123 Mercedes 230E and it has to be on of the worst cars I've driven if you're after fun. However, not quite as bad as the 1990 TP Magna I drove a few weeks ago.

    I then compare that old Merc to the other older cars I've driven (the 505s and an E28 5 Series) and you just can't compare. I do love the 505 GTi - the quick, responsive steering with plenty of feel, enough power for every day use, great comfort and fantastic handling. I've often found modern cars do lack character. I always thought I prefered the older pugs to say a 307 (that massive understeer was a real learning curve mr reno!). It is not as comfortable as the older ones, in terms of standard features doesn't have much mine doesn't have - it has auto climate control. In terms of space efficiency it is definately pretty amazing, but then again so is the 505 when compared to the new Mitsubishi Magna!

    I don't doubt that a new car with modern suspension designs and expensive tyres could corner faster than my old car - and you don't need electronic controls to make this so. I've been in a new M3 with all its DSC systems turned off racing around Eildon at insane speeds that a peugeot could only dream of and that is because companies like BMW do put a lot of effort into making their cars with decent chassis and suspension. I might add that having driven quite a few new $70-90,000 Volvos that they certainly aren't there yet. Those cars can corner faster than my car as well, but they aren't as much fun when doing it. In the 505 you have the extreme body roll which makes it feel like you're really pushing its limits, but also the wonderful steering and the neutral handling, letting you eventually oversteer slightly. I'm not saying the 505 is the be all and end all of driving entertainment, but it is certainly pretty good 'bang for your bucks'.

    I think many people on here are going to prefer older cars as in some cases that is all they really have experience with, but what fantastic old cars to have experienced. If we were asking this question on a Ford or GM forum I'm sure most people would jump and say "yes! New ones as they have just fitted semi-trailing rear suspension..."

    <small>[ 28 October 2003, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  25. #25
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    DTwo:
    I think i'll end up supplementing the 205 with something.....iduno....the word volvo keeps popping into my head roll_lau
    <img src="http://users.bigpond.net.au/skystar/Bloodyvolvodriver.jpg" alt=" - " />


    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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