A topic dear to your hearts. - Speed
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  1. #1
    XTC
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    A topic dear to your hearts. - Speed

    More haste, less safe on the roads

    By Paul Murray


    THE last time I looked, speeding wasn't one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

    But the way it is treated in WA these days, you'd think it had been specifically proscribed in the Ten Commandments.

    We're brainwashed by the slogan Speed Kills. The problem is that it's a lie.

    The facts speak for themselves. Last year, the WA police speed-checked drivers 19.5 million times and made 3.22 million pinches for exceeding the limit.

    The road toll last year was around 240. If speed killed - as we're constantly told - the road toll would be a lot higher given the amount of speeding going on.

    Speed, of itself, doesn't kill. If it did, we would be required to stay perfectly still at all times.

    Next week, a British academic will fly in from Bath Spa University College in England to debunk the Speed Kills myth for the Sydney-based Centre for Independent Studies.

    Sociologist Dr Alan Buckingham says the strategy is flawed and based on what he calls "flaky" evidence.

    In fact, he argues that speed cameras merely punish the best, safest drivers.

    "The net result of years of speed cameras in Britain and Australia is that road speeds have not slowed significantly, the downward trend in serious accidents and fatalities has been almost totally lost, hundreds of thousands of the safest drivers are convicted each year and the goodwill between law-abiding citizens and the police is evaporating," he says.

    Dr Buckingham says our road safety strategies don't acknowledge the distinction between speed, speeding and excessive speed.

    He argues that excessive speed is the important element - speed inappropriate for the conditions.

    "Speeding generally refers to exceeding the posted speed limit, and bears no relationship to the current conditions," Dr Buckingham argues.

    "While all speeding implies speed, it does not necessarily imply excessive speed. Few would claim that driving 10kmh above the speed limit on an empty motorway in good conditions constitutes driving with excessive speed."

    Dr Buckingham says the British Transport Research Laboratory had established speed is responsible for just 7.3 per cent of accidents, not the 30 per cent quoted by Speed Kills proponents.

    But speed remains the major focus of road safety campaigns.

    "When we come to the analysis of the relationship between 'speeding' (rather than 'speed' or 'excessive speed') and accidents, the evidence in Britain and Australia is remarkably thin on the ground," he says.

    "Indeed, US research on speeding has established that those who speed moderately tend to be the safest drivers. It is those who travel well above and well below the posted speed limit who are the biggest risk."

    That research showed the accident involvement rate for drivers travelling on streets and highways in urban areas was by far the highest for the slowest 5 per cent of traffic.

    Roadside speed cameras don't catch these dangerous slow drivers.

    What sort of law enforcement is that? And we're told this is a road safety initiative. So, what has been the result of the Speed Kills strategy in Australia?

    "Fatal crashes in NSW halved between 1980 and 1991, when speed cameras were introduced," Dr Buckingham finds.

    "Since then the decline has faltered, with a drop of just 3 per cent since 1993 despite the implementation of double demerit points in 1997 and fixed speed cameras in 1999.

    "Even less convincing is the case of WA which has experienced a drop of 20 per cent since speed cameras were introduced in 1988 compared with a fall of 40 per cent over the same period for Australia as a whole."

    The failure of speed cameras to reduce serious road accidents is not a quirk of British or Australian data.

    "Similar findings led the government of British Columbia in Canada to scrap their cameras, Dr Buckingham says. "Data from the British Columbia Coroner's Office on vehicle-related fatalities showed speed cameras did not save lives.

    "A 2000 report, entitled Safe Roads, Safe Communities, stated that the program had no discernible impact on speed or on the fatal accident rate. It also noted that most accidents happen at slower speeds, with two-thirds of all crashes occurring at speeds below the posted limit."

    Dr Buckingham warns that millions of motorists are being convicted each year for driving behaviour which is perfectly safe.

    "It is likely that motorists will come to view the police's actions as cynical, vindictive and unfair," he says.

    He says the issue of speeding highlights a familiar story of failed state intervention: The government moves to improve the well-being of a group of people. Simplistic theories of causation are assumed.

    But when evidence emerges to suggest that the policies are not working, they aren't dropped, but instead more extreme policies are designed.

    So, given the evidence he presents of the failure of speed cameras, does Dr Buckingham think they should be scrapped? No. But he says cameras should be used only to catch the excessive speeders.

    In other words, the police should push out the tolerances on the cameras, not reduce them. That can only be seen as revenue raising from safe drivers.

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    "Speed in itself does not kill, but inappropriate speed can kill," Dr Buckingham says. "What causes inappropriate speed is part of a wider issue of poor driving. Poor drivers can be those who simply do not care about other road users, they can be the inattentive or they can be the inexperienced.

    "Many of these drivers, just like safe drivers, may speed but they are also likely to behave in other ways that causes accidents.

    "Since speed cameras are unable to distinguish between poor drivers and safe drivers, most speed cameras should be removed and a return made to tried and tested methods of law enforcement."

    Paul Murray hosts the morning program on 882 6PR

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Email: [email protected]

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    October 25, 2003
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! AlsPug504's Avatar
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    "Fatal crashes in NSW halved between 1980 and 1991, when speed cameras were introduced," Dr Buckingham finds.

    There is no evidence provided to suggest that speed cameras alone were even responsible for halving road death.

    In Victoria the road death figure incresed when the cameras were introduce!

    When they talk about road safey I am pretty sure the goverment was not refering to the general publics saftey! But rather there improve financal position was the "saftey" they ment being funded by the roads!

  3. #3
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    Well it certainly pays well (for the govt anyway)

    State scoops $10m in speeding windfall

    By Ben Harvey and Amanda Banks
    West Australian Front Page April 24th 2003

    TOUGHER use of speed cameras and the new 50kmh law delivered an estimated $10 million boost to Treasury coffers last financial year.

    The extra money, uncovered through Freedom of Information laws, has raised questions over the effectiveness of Multanovas as a road safety tool and fuelled concerns they are used as revenue raisers.

    The Treasury windfall was revealed in an internal State Government email which outlined an unexpected $3.4 million payment to the Road Trauma Trust Fund in 2001-02.

    The RTTF, which pays for road safety programs in WA, gets a third of all red light and Multanova revenue, indicating an extra $10 million would have been generated by the changes.

    In the internal email, a road safety finance officer explained the increase.

    "Revenue from fines was $3,421,436 over budget," the officer wrote. "This was due primarily to the implementation of 50kmh, changes in camera tolerance rates (both of which resulted in an infringement level considerably higher than expected)."

    In March 2001, police announced Multanova tolerance levels would be dropped but refused to say by how much. Nine months later the 50kmh limit came in.

    Multanova and red light camera revenues for 2002-03 are down on the previous years, with Office of Road Safety executive director Iain Cameron expecting $11 million in 2002-03 - indicating a total of about $35 million.

    Police said this meant fewer people were speeding. They blamed this year's rocketing road toll on factors other than speeding.


    PS: Where does my money go?

    One third of the money collected from speed camera infringements are put into the Road Trauma Trust Fund which supports various road safety programs.

    Improving road safety co-ordination and supporting community education, are some of the worthwhile initiatives which are supplemented by speed camera fines.

    [meaning the gov't gets the rest - XTC206 -]
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Mitch Mi16's Avatar
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    I think you can say speed kills, but in another way you can't say it is the only factor when accidents involve drivers going over the limit.

    I think, as has been said the drivers who are confident and "better" (using that word loosly, as even the best can have an accident) drivers
    are normally the one who push the boundaries. Otherwise it's the drivers who lull themselves into believing they could handle any situation. Which is where problems occur.

    I will not say i am the best driver. But i have had some interesting situations, like the rear end slipping out of you under braking, in the wet, which has happened a couple of times. These incidents have made me realise that my driving skills, are good, but not the best. It has also made me realise i know where my boundaries are, and that most of the time i have not crossed these.

    Mind you i have been driving a 1982 VW Microbus since i started driving. So being in this,& it slipping the rear end out a frighning experience, when not expecting it that is..

    I think both sides have valid points, but it is hard to say that only speed kills..
    THE MAD PUGGA

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  5. #5
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    <table cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2" border="1"style="text-align: left; width: 65%;"><tbody><tr><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">Km/h in excess of
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">But not more than km/h
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">$
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">Demerit points
    </td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">9
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">19
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">100
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">1
    </td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">19
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">29
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">150
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">3
    </td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">29
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">40
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">250
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">4
    </td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">40
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">-
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">350
    </td><td style="vertical-align: top; text-align: center; width: 100px;">6
    </td></tr></tbody></table>

    What are the speed fine ranges in VIC / NSW ?

    WA they were .... (as above)

    but some of the tolerence has been reduced now ... 6kph over can get you a fine. At least it's better then 3kph !!!

    - XTC206 -
    You're not fooling everyone, or did you forget? .......




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  6. #6
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    I was fined recently on the Western Ring Road (3-lane divided freeway in Victoria) by an automatic speed camera. It was a Sunday afternoon with light traffic, clear weather conditions and excellent visibility. I was doing 113km/h in a 100km/h zone, which I admit is well above the limit, but not what I would consider "excessive" speed given the conditions. The fine was $200 and 3 demerit points which, in my opinion, WAS excessive given that I was clearly not driving in an unsafe manner and the risk of a fatal accident was practically zero.

    I would consider running a red light or speeding through an intersection or a school zone to be far more dangerous than going a few kays over the limit on a divided freeway, but the problem with the current system is that it does not distinguish between high and low risk situations. It also doesn't distinguish between capable and incapable drivers, good and bad weather conditions, well-maintained and poorly maintained vehicles, or light and heavy traffic. The system is inherently flawed because it has to cater for the lowest common denominator (ie. the worst conditions, the worst drivers, the worst cars).

    Applying a blanket law that covers all situations is clearly a compromise. I do not have a problem with this in itself. It is necessary to apply one law for everyone. However, I do have a problem with the fact that the Government seems to be taking advantage of the situation. Given the level of compromise inherent in the law, it is simply not right for the Government to apply such tight tolerances and steep penalties for breaking it. Not only is it bad practise, but in my opinion it is unfair, unjust, and even immoral.

    The State Government of Victoria predicts that revenue from traffic offences will be $427.5 million in 2003/4 (from their own "Arrive Alive" website). Is it possible that the Government is becoming reliant on this level of income? Could it be that they will do anything to protect it at the expense of the average person who is unwilling or unable to do anything about it? No, surely not....

    2_cents Dave

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    If you want to have a good laugh, read the State Budget speech for each State.
    Last year, Mackentrough our treasurer, stated that "income from traffic fines is set to increase by 16%" So I wrote to him and asked if motorists were doing what these camera things were supposed to achieve (ie) reduce the number of drivers speeding, then short of employing a clarevoyant, how could this figure be assessed unless the Police were being issued with quotas to achieve and/or setting entrapment situations so that these figures were attained.
    He naturally didn't answer nor has he answered every time I have made the same comment in the papers.
    I wonder if he'll answer after the next State Election when the Government member here who is apparently very vulnerable gets unseated?? Because I'll be doing everything I can to put him on the dole queue...and I've already told Peter Bjelke-Beattie that too. deal mallet mallet
    Politicians; if you see one on fire, have a bladder disorder; it'd be a waste of good p!$$

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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    ..... Alan. If i ever, ever at all!, step off line. Please put me in my place. As id hate to receive the full wrath that is ALAN S, if i ever acted otherwise. - chris

    ps. Speed Vs Negligent dotors... oh wonder how the two are related? ask me how?
    ... ptui!

  9. #9
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Unfortunately mate, I worked in high stress, high pressure, results dominated industries at a fairly senior level and it has become part of my make up not to swallow bullshit or be pushed around with people full of their own importance (ie) Senior Public Servants and Politicians being good cases in point, in fact if you saw a couple of references that I received regarding a recent appointment, they would make your hair stand on end the way my character & principles were described; I had to look in the mirror to see if it was the right bloke they were talking about.
    Having said that, if you spoke to those who know me, I would reckon (hope) that the description would be of being possibly the most layed back character you're ever likely to meet, so I really don't bite although at times that might be hard to believe. dance mallet

    Alan S
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  10. #10
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    Almost two years ago the Metropolitan North East Community Road Safety Council wrote to the Victorian (Steve Bracks) Labour Government asking that the 10 per cent tolerance level be restored and that the Government provide overhead facilities whereby motorists in Victoria could check the accuracy of their speedos over a range of values (60kph, 70kph , 80kph, and 100kph)as the committee noted that police on that committee had advised that the highway speed indicators (presently provided) were notoriously innacurate to plus or minus 5 kph and worse.

    After some procrastination the reply from the Bracks Governement was a flat NO.

    Now you might ask, why would a Government refuse to provide the motoring public with a means to check speedometer accuracy, particularly when discarding a longstanding 10 percent tolerance for speed camera operations?

    Also why would a Government refuse to certify the accuracy of the present overhead speed indicators placed on the main highways into Melbourne. (there are disclaimers now on those signs that the indicated speeds are a guide only)

    You might also ask why can't the Government ensure they are accurate devices when they are prepared to fine motorists by way of other mechanical/electrical or radar/laser operated devices.

    Well the wonderful spin is this, the whole road safety apsect is an argy bargy cover for a wonderful windfall to a government that had overspent, what better arrangement is there, where you can levy additional funds for general revenue while claiming the "high moral ground of saving lives", and yet knowing that the majority of motorists that will be fined are those straying a small amount over the posted speed limits!

    Yes this is the basis for the strategy, as it is this section of the long suffering motoring public that will pay their fines without taking the matter to court and thus ensuring a bountiful windfall to the state revenue. Not only that but some of those motorists will write to the papers and even defend the goverment actions in the name of "road safety"

    Why not target the specific speeding offences that do contribute to collisions and are truly innapropriate behaviour by a small proportion of road users? Well I can answer that easily, those offenders are the ones that will use every device within our rickety system of justice to fight the matter in court, and often they win because there are fundamental flaws in the operation of devices such as speed cameras that can be exploited.

    The goverment is very quiet on where the bulk of the 400+ millions of revenue come from. You won't hear exactly what proportion comes from people straying 3 to 4 kph over the limit and how many successfully challenge the speed cameras and at what speed ranges over the limit.

    They tend to quote the hackneyed saying that wipe of five will save lives. Well if that was true then the whole speeding thing would be fixed by downgrading the speed limits by 5kph. Of course they know that it is innapropiate speed to the road conditions that actually introduces risk, but they will never admit this.

    They have a fervent hope that eventually all the "law abiding motorists" will have a "change of attitude" which will lead them to drive so slow that they won't be booked any more (by about the time that the opposition party wins power!!)

    Never-mind that the roads will clog up and frustrations build between drivers, its all part of the spin doctoring and has nothing to do with road safety ( if it has an effect it will be by accident only)

    What can we do - well the only answer would be for every motorist to take their case to court and the result would be instant chaos and a revenue neutral system, and maybe a recognition by the government that their cynical exercise in duplicity has been exposed and a backdown on placement and frequency of cameras.

    What else - Well we could ask that every politicians publicly funded (Taxpayer funded) car
    be fitted with an accurate external speedometer to show other motorists how they and their staff stick to the road speed and the bonus then would be that we can check our own speed against their indicated speed (Oh and report any straying over the speed limit of course!!) Sort of putting the boot on the other foot so to speak...

    Oh and press for return of the 10 percent leeway tolerance...

    Oh and ensure your vote counts at election time.

    Ken

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    Having been a recidivist speedster in the first few years of my driving, I feel that I have some authority to talk on these matters.

    I was a hot headed lead foot in my younger years, and I must make it clear that, in retrospect, I'm not proud of many of my early driving exploits. One such example of my early love of speed, was a drive, late at night, in a Datsun ute, from Hobart to Devonport (300km) in 2 hours and 5 minutes. This trip involved cruising at over 160 km/h where-ever the road permitted.

    In the 18 years that have passed since I got my license, I've had several near misses, and some far more serious indicents, all of which occured in the first six or seven years of my driving. The most serious of them are listed below. As you will see, despite my former predilection for speed, only one of the indidents would most definitely have been avoided had I not been exceeding the posted limit.

    Anyway, the incidents and their causes are briefly outlined as follows:

    1. Slammed into a telegraph pole at an intersection in town, causing $3600 (in 1983!) damage to my Dad's R16TS.
    Cause: excessive speed for the conditions (pouring rain). I don't think I was exceeding the posted speed limit.

    2. Spun the Renault on an overpass after rounding a corner way to fast, narrowly missing an oncomming car. I was exceeding the legal speed limit by approximately 70 percent.
    Cause: excessive speed for the corner.

    3. Collision while overtaking (nearly could have been a head on).
    Cause: I did not pay sufficient attention to a road undulation big enough to hide an oncomming car. I was speeding, but that was not the primary cause. Inattention to the road undulation was the primary factor.

    4. Knocked down a pedestrian in town, at low speed.
    Cause: fogged up windsreen on cold morning - I should have cleared it before driving to work.

    5. Rear-ended a Volvo at an intersection.
    Cause: excessive speed for the conditions (rain) combined with dumb, slow, Volvo driver changing lanes without checking mirrors. I was probably not exceeding the posted limit.

    6. Spun the Audi on ice rounding a corner well below the posted speed limit.
    Cause: driving too fast for the conditions.

    7. Spun out R16 at highway speed, narrowly missing an oncomming truck.
    Cause: not watching the road while I was groping around on the the floor looking for something. At the time I was almost certainly not exceeding the posted limit.

    Of these seven incidents, only one would certainly not have occured if I had been observing the posted speed limit, and that was number 2. The other six incidents were caused by a combination of inattention, inexperience and over-confidence.

    I think the lesson from this is that it extremely important to alter your speed to suit the conditions and pay very careful attention at all times to the road and what is going on around you.

    And it would be fair to say that several of these incidents may not have occured if I had spent quality time on a wet skid pan as part of my driver training before getting my full license. This would have taught me to to have far more respect for wet roads.
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  12. #12
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    frogs4ever:
    And it would be fair to say that several of these incidents may not have occured if I had spent quality time on a wet skid pan as part of my driver training before getting my full license. This would have taught me to to have far more respect for wet roads.
    Having spent a lot of hours submitting & researching this topic for my Travelsafe Committee submission as well as a fair amount of time on the phone to departmental heads in Brisbane, I can tell you what the desk bound 'road safety experts' response to that is vebatum "Ya see, if ya get 'em out on those kind o' things, then whatcha doin' is teachin' 'em ta drive fast on wet roads....now that's what we're tryin' ta discourage!"
    That's the mentality you strike constantly within the Departments supposedly chartered with the resposibility of drafting legislation to improve Road safety, unfortunately it all begins with a $$figure and it's all downhill from there, which explains why as I stated previously, I can be such a cynical & short tempered [email protected][email protected]&d at times, particularly when I have to deal with them. mallet mallet

    Alan S cheers!

    Footnote: Frogs4ever, if I ever look like coming to Tasmania, I think I'll give you a call, find out where you're likely to be driving whilst I'm there and a description & rego number of your car.........then drive on the other side of the Island and keep my eyes peeled...bloody 'ell mate; bit of a scarey record. cry mallet
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    [quote]Alan S:
    Frogs4ever, if I ever look like coming to Tasmania, I think I'll give you a call, find out where you're likely to be driving whilst I'm there and a description & rego number of your car.........then drive on the other side of the Island and keep my eyes peeled...bloody 'ell mate; bit of a scarey record. cry mallet
    Feel free to look me up and I'll take you for a spin....
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    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    It seems not even France is immune from the Speed Kills Doublespeak.

    Found this in today's Melbourne Age:

    "A motoring magazine caught the transport and interior ministers speeding on their way to launch the first automatic radar traps in France. Auto-Plus magazine used a portable radar to clock their official cars at 98km/h and 103km/h in a 70km/h zone."

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    Over the next four to six weeks or so, the fixed speed camera network in Victoria will not be fining anyone immediately. Three cameras on three key arterial roads have found to be faulty - Citylink, the Monash Freeway and the Western Ring Road.

    We've had a few funny incidents in the past - a Volvo F Series truck was caught recently going uphill in the Burnley tunnel at 174km/h (never mind it can't go faster than 140km/h), a Datsun 120Y was caught at 158km/h on the Western Ring Road, despite tests showing it would max out at around 110km/h. Can't wait now for the 307 to be clocked at 307km/h

    Don't get any funny ideas though - the cameras will still be snapping photos, just fines won't be issued immediately until the camera problems have been investigated.
    Gee, wonder how that State Budget's gonna be now

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    wouldn't it be lovely if they abandoned cameras all together and just educate people on how to drive in the first place
    i know it's a dream but we all have them
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  17. #17
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    The faultly cameras now revealed

    are exactly why the Victorian Government was asked to provide accurate overhead displays so that drivers could check on the accuracy of their speedo's, given the 10 per cent plus of minus of the Australian Design rules.

    The flat refusal of the Bracks Goverment to consider this reasonable request is why I am firmly convinced this latest campaign has NOTHING to do with road safety but everything to do with extracting (taxing) the maximum number of motorists to relieve their debt ridden coffers!!

    Its funny, they cant get the two overhead Highway speed indicators to be accurate, but were quite content to fine motorists by way of devices that obviously can't be trusted.

    If each fixed camera had a speed indication screen, motorists would have some chance to check their own speedo's and dispute the indicated speed BEFORE the fine arrives in the mail. It would also help in timely notification that a camera is faulty!!, rather than the estimated three months one is "THOUGHT" to have been faulty.

    But that would only be a matter of fairness, if a Government was CONCERNED about Honesty in the application of state laws. Justice needs not only to be done, BUT SEEN to be done!!!

    Time to press this Government to do the right thing rather than THINKING (we can get away with this bull!!!!) Then ACTING (as if they cared!) and shelve this whole insane charade.............................

    Ken

  18. #18
    XTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    are exactly why the Victorian Government was asked to provide accurate overhead displays so that drivers could check on the accuracy of their speedo's, given the 10 per cent plus of minus of the Australian Design rules.
    I've never understood why ADR's allow one thing ... and the speed rules don't, I'd say free testing to all - at least you'd only have yourself to blame.

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    I think most road users would be far less critical of lower limits and tolerances in the suburbs and built up areas if the speed limits were raised on the nation's freeways and motorways. I assume of course the extra driver education would be in place for such a move to be feasable.

    On a side note, I was being tailgated while I was doing 100km/h the other day. In the left lane. With a clear right lane so the driver behind me could overtake. That is unbelievably dangerous and was completely unnecessary. Why didn't he simply overtake me and continue as his desired speed? That is the perfect example of why Australian driver's don't appreciate the risks associated with driving, nor are they nearly concious enough of the responsibility that goes hand-in-hand with driving. The guy behind me probably didn't even realise he was tailing me. Nobody's ever told him that kind of driving is unacceptable. Why should he care?

    For the ADD crowd: Raised limits on motorways + increased driver training = happier populance regarding low limits in 'danger' areas.

    edit: spelling. Wow, I'm tired.
    Last edited by Elky; 13th November 2003 at 01:08 AM.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! frogs4ever's Avatar
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    Some good points there Elky.

    PS. The unnecessary tailgating you refer to is also commonplace in Tasmania. I simply cannot understand this kind of mindless behaviour.

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  21. #21
    Good Sport danielsydney's Avatar
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    Alan S I think im getting to like you more. Your threads above are great reading and i agree with everything you said..

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