Turbo charging
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Thread: Turbo charging

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Turbo charging

    Has anyone had any experience in turbocharging engines? I was thinking installing a relativly small turbo on my R25, not to create a firebreathing monster but more in a Saab (watch all the s word comments come in....!) like way of creating a more effortless cruiser, going after more torque etc.
    If only going for moderate boost from a small turbo (which will if I understand it correctly result in minimal lag and no doubt easily sourced s/h from the multitude of jap car parts importers), will I have to lower compression ratios, and the big point is will the standard EFI/ignition setup be happy with the turbo, or will I need a chip replacement? Another thing I thought of, should the cam be changed for something with more appropriate valve timing?

    Manifolds, oil supply, induction tubing and intercoolers should be easy enough to get made up and put in (should keep me amused for a few weekends....)

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  2. #2
    2000+ Brad's Avatar
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    Wouldn't a low presure supercharger be a better option. Get one pushing around 4-5psi and you wouldn't/shouldn't need an intercooler or change the compression.

    Then in the future, change the pully wheel, add an intercooler and lower the compression to up the boost.
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I had thought that myself - wonder what people have to say on turbo v supercharging pros and cons? I would say cost (I will try and do this on the cheap if I can) is going to play a factor in the decision! A supercharger would certainly be easier to install (mount it piggy back on the A/C compressor and use the same poly V belt to drive it), but that turbo whistle does sound pretty spesh!!
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  4. #4
    Gus
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    Fellow Frogger! Gus's Avatar
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    Hmm, I'll weigh in with my two cents:

    First, pros/cons of super/turbocharging

    Supercharging:
    - Less hassle
    - Much less heat
    - At high rpm will cost you power and economy as it is sapping power from the engine, but at low/mid rpms the difference is (AFAIK) negligible.

    Turbocharging:
    - Doesn't take much power from the engine.
    - More plumbing (manifolds, oil lines)
    - Heat pump... intercooler or reduced compression would be your option for low boost, both for high.
    - Lag (minimal problem with a small modern turbo)

    As to turboing your R25... cool!

    Whether or not your standard injection system can handle low boost will depend on the kind of system you have. Does it use a "Mass Airflow Sensor" (basically a flap that air pushes back as it flows through)? If so, you might be able to run a small amount of boost with your standard system. If you have it re-mapped by a professional (if your computer will take it), you'd be safer!

    My recommendation, though, would be to buy a second-hand programmable EFI of some kind (Haltech maybe) and install it instead of your current ECU. You'll get much better results, and run less risk of destroying your engine via prolonged detonation.

    As long as your cam isn't too high-duration (I doubt this very much), you'd probably go fine with the standard cam, but you might get better performance with a different one. I'd save that till last.

    PS Don't forget your Engineer's Certificate. $$$.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I've got the later ULP R25 - it runs a Renix EFI that has no airflow sensor of any sort -only a air temp sensor and throttle position sensor on the induction. It does however use a knock sensor which I would hope can deal with minor preignition worries. Other wise I could shift the TDC pickup to trick the computer into running less advance. I'm only looking for 30 or so BHP increase, which with the manual box' I've got for it , lower the suspension an inch or so and some nice 16 inch wheels should make for a nice touring car.
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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Andreas's Avatar
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    Gus:
    My recommendation, though, would be to buy a second-hand programmable EFI of some kind (Haltech maybe) and install it instead of your current ECU. You'll get much better results, and run less risk of destroying your engine via prolonged detonation.
    Yes and it would also run more efficiently and thus more environmentally friendly, but the EPA doesn't see it that way and guess where Haakon works roll_lau
    It is illegal to fit a programmable ecu....and I do understand why.

    Are chip replacements/re-programs legal?

    As for the turbo/super debate, either would do me head_ban

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Don't p*ss about with forced induction, shove a V6 in there, nice torquey motor, relaxed cruising and we know it'll fit because it was made to
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Geez, those buggers at the EPA are such killjoys... I am the first to admit that we are chockablock with contradictions, but I guess these things are written to cover all the idiots who would tune an aftermarket ECU for max power and emissions be damned. You can use them if you can demonstrate that the engine conforms to emission standards for new vehicles - I'm not sure what that means (new as in for that vehicle when new or for current limits) but I will quiz our gurus at the labs.
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Europa:
    Don't p*ss about with forced induction, shove a V6 in there, nice torquey motor, relaxed cruising and we know it'll fit because it was made to
    Did think about that, but I was thinking that a motor swap would as much if not more hassle, and a bigger heavier motor slung way out in front of the front axle would surely have detrimental effects on handling, even after getting uprated front springs fitted etc. Does the Volvo version use a modern EFI setup? cos I'm not a big fan of the semi mechanical Bosch system used on V6 R25s.
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  10. #10
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Is that the R25 you picked up so cheap? Personally, i'd turbo charge the 2.2 litre and put it in a Fuego.... head_ban head_ban tongue

    Is that R25 in too good nik to be a donor car?

    I prefer turbocharging because it runs from the exhaust gases and not off the engine itself

  11. #11
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    ..plus its only traditional to hear 'Renaulturbo'

    'supercharged Renault'? dosent sound as good... wink (whatdya reckon Damien )

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I agree - a turbo is much more "Renault". No, its not the one I picked up cheap - I was going to do that up and sell my auto, but the sunroof in it takes up too much headroom and my head bounces off the headlining unless I really slouch. I'm not exactly tall, but you have to be pretty short to be comfortable. Its not as bad as a Fuego with a sunroof though! So I am going to swap over the transmissions and sell the new one as an auto, and keep my silver one as a manual. It is far to good to use as a doner car, otherwise I would be using its EFI motor for a Fuego project car (which I still plan to do when I can find a Fuego that hasnt been thrashed and trashed, which could take a while... mallet ), but I just cant do it - it deserves to live on.

    Anyway, does anyone out there have any practical experiance in fitting custom Turbos to previously NA engines?
    I got the number of a guy in Adelaide who has Turbo'd his Fuego, complete with water injection, intercooler etc - I will try to remember to ring him and get him to post his car with piccies.
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  13. #13
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    YES PLEASE!!!

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! deja vu 25's Avatar
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    Hi Haakon

    I have been told, by one of our Renault repairers here in ACT that it is quite an easy conversion with the 2.2 ulp cars. The knock sensor stops the pre ignition/pinking and it is the same engine as used on the 21 Turbo - basically. A mob in WA were doing Turbo conversions on the 2.2 R21's for a while, but they are no longer in business. I even have a brochure from them!

    It is funny - I have thought of putting a supercharger or tubo on my R25 when it is converted to manual.

    I too would be interested in more comments and prices?

    Matt - how's the V6 going????

    Luke
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  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Hi Luke - how 'bout a photocopy of that brochure?

    I have been talking with the 21 Turbo owners club in the UK, and someone there reckons the ECU is completly different for the turbo motors - it retards the ignition under power instead of advancing like in a NA engine. Anyone know if this sounds right? A couple of the club memebers are willing to sell me a phase two turbo head (with the soudium cooled exhaust valves) and the ECU, turbo, manifolds, and all the bits and pieces for the conversion cheapish - just a matter of forking out for shipping and customs, waiting months for them to turn up and hoping like hell that parts bought sight unseen are OK! Any one got trustworthy, car savvy mates in the UK?
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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    I knew a mechanic once who's wife had a supercharged V8 Torana, and was an ablolut terror.
    He gave her a turbo for her birthday, hoping it would slow her down a little. Instead it increased the top speed.
    For her next birthday, he got her a new Honda
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    Europa:
    Don't p*ss about with forced induction, shove a V6 in there, nice torquey motor, relaxed cruising and we know it'll fit because it was made to
    Did think about that, but I was thinking that a motor swap would as much if not more hassle, and a bigger heavier motor slung way out in front of the front axle would surely have detrimental effects on handling, even after getting uprated front springs fitted etc. Does the Volvo version use a modern EFI setup? cos I'm not a big fan of the semi mechanical Bosch system used on V6 R25s.
    AFAIK, turbocharging an engine is quite a complex excercise to get right and reliable. Personally I think with a car like a R25, you want to be able to spend as little time farting around with it as possible. Most aftermarket turbocharging efforts I have seen / heard about (non-professional installs) seem to be always causing reliability problems unless all the homework is done first.

    As to the V6, I can definitely state that the R25 was made for it. In no way does it feel nose heavy (motor mount position on R25 V6 block are much further forward than R30 BTW, less "overhang"). It really feels like a big Fuego to drive. Mind you I suspect some changes in suspension etc. (ie. R25 has 15" rims, 5 stud wheels etc. - I think it is lower too, but maybe thats just a visual effect because of the bigger wheels) When I bought the car, I thought it was going to be a bit of a sponge, but it really isn't anything like that all.

    Mechanical injection is a pretty crude beast, certainly doesn't do much for economy. Later R25 V6's had a much better EFI system.
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    LukeCass:
    Matt - how's the V6 going????
    Engine disassembly in process, hopefully back together and going this year. Simultaneously getting R17TS back on road, just for added fun.
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! deja vu 25's Avatar
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    Matt

    Still wanting to get rid of the 25?
    Cheers - Luke

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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Once she's back in good condition again
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! deja vu 25's Avatar
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    Don't forget me now!

    My biggest hurdle is convincing the Minister for indoors!

    Cheers

    Luke
    Cheers - Luke

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    1974 Renault 17TS (1317) - Silver

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    heheh well motor strip down is scheduled for this weekend, would like to get block and components sorted out next week if possible, fingers crossed she'll be alive again in about 1 month...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

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