Clio 2L v WRX in new MOTOR mag
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    Clio 2L v WRX in new MOTOR mag

    Yes yes,

    although it's a reno, many of you will be interested in the new CLIO v WRX test in the new MOTOR mag. Check it out.

    Comes in very well from the brief look this morning at the newsagent

    Ian
    205GTi (poor mans Clio Sport)

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Ian,

    I thought that reno would be a bit quicker
    For the amount of money they want
    I posted i while back and stated JR's 205 mi16
    would be quicker and i think i was on the
    ball
    Man i think my standard 205 series2 engine mandrel bent stainless exhaust would give it a run
    Times
    Clio sport 0-100 7.9 sec
    0-400 15.8 sec
    205 GTI2 0-100 7-8 sec
    0-400 16.3 sec
    JR's would be quite a bit quicker
    What was a suprise though was the porky wrx
    100 Kg heavier than the old car
    with poor times that were only marginally
    quicker than the reno.
    I think if i were to spend that much on a 4cyl
    I would by the typeR Honda
    Or beter yet Mitsi evo 6 4wd turbo
    I think the honda was 182 kw or something

    My 2 cents worth

    Murat

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    Murat,

    My 93 GTi is supposed to do under 8 seconds is it? Wow. I'll try it out on the way home from the lights. Really-I'm surprised. It doesn't feel that quick. (maybe its not!)

    I think the Clio Sport is cheap at $30K.
    Finally an Australian magazine has the balls to put a WRX up against the Clio and show the aussie performance brigade that a new player is in town. Mind you in the first 2 paragraphs they mention the 205GTi as the old benchmark still.

    Ian

    >Times
    >Clio sport 0-100 7.9 sec
    0-400 15.8 sec
    >205 GTI2 0-100 7-8 sec
    0-400 16.3 sec

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Ian,

    q/t: Mind you in the first 2 paragraphs they mention the 205GTi as the old benchmark still.

    "If ever there was a spiritual grandson to the revered Peugeot 205GTi, the Clio sports is it. No Kidding. " to be exact

    "And when you look at the French car industry in an historical sense, it has consistantly come up with endearing designs that raise the bar for those who follow" just made me go all gooie inside

    Good article all up, mind you, the blurb on the V6 Clio makes mention of the fact if you drive one, its not if but when you will spin the car and have the tail lights facing the wrong direction. I seem to recall a similar experience in my 205 not long ago.....

    Chipper

  5. #5
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,
    I'm surprised at people knocking the Cleo, its the fastest car for the money on the market, Renault claim 0-100 in 7.2 seconds, one road test I read claimed 6.6, but its only one thousand dollars more than the 206 and over 2 seconds quicker to 100 and puts out 124kw against the 206 with 102kw, when you look at performance for the dollar, nothing on the Aussie market comes close to Cleo. Peugeot may have had the tittle of best hot hatch, but eventually all winners must lose and I'm glad a French car is the won to topple the champion.
    Sure you could put an MI16 motor in a 205 and beat the Cleo but I haven't seen anyone hot the Cleo up yet.

    David.

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  6. #6
    jr
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    just what does happen to these cars when they hit oz, i remember when the 205 arrived some mags had it at nearly 10 secs to 100. the uk mags were all approx mid 7's. thats a big difference! all my uk mags give the clio around 6.6 some even around 7 secs. but again here in oz magazine a high 7.9??????? its a great buy tho..it is not 30k but more like 34k on the road. as far as the 205 being a poor mans clio..i dont think so!! the clio is quick but bloody ugly unlike the classic pininfarina 205 shape. the clio reminds me of the import honda city 93 model. wont stand out in a carpark!!

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  7. #7
    Simon's Avatar
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    Nothing happens when the cars hit AUS, check that the figures are actually comparable. Are the UK magazines showing a 0-60mph time rather than a 0-100km/h (0-62mph) time?

    Also certain UK mags have used non standard cars. The Clio 172 in Evo magazine was fitted with a non-standard experimental exhaust believed to liberate an extra 5bhp. So all the apples may not indeed be apples!

    Simon
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  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    lets not forget they always seem to 'detune' the cars that come to Australia so that they will run acceptably on our garbage fuel. I think for years our anti-pollution was much stricter, so the cars were also burdened with pollution crap, and de-tuned to cope with it.

    It's probably different now though. All cars would be built the same to suit all markets...

    seeya,

    Shane Leviston
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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    Can we all start calling it a Clio and not a Cleo.

    Hope I don't offend anyone, but one is a WRX equal and the other a girlie magazine.

    Ian

  10. #10
    Simon's Avatar
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    The days of crappy detuned Euro cars are fortunately over. AUS was one of the few countries in the world where standard unleaded was the same 91 octane as the USA, that is one reason why we never got some of the tastier Euro spec cars. Euro standard ULP is 95 octane, Euro super is 98 octane. Only when AUS introduced PULP did we get "proper" performance, and a better selection of Euro models.

    BTW are there many places other than Adelaide where you can get 115 octane on pump? Presently there are two BP outlets here selling the stuff.


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  11. #11
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    The European spec 205 1.9GTi which was released in about 1986 had these specs:
    130hp (98kW)
    160Nm
    880kg

    The early Australian 205 1.9 GTi had these specs:
    100hp (75kW)
    142Nm
    940kg

    The late model Australian 1.9GTi had these specs:
    120hp (90kW) approximate
    160Nm
    940kg+

    When you look at these figures it's pretty easy to see why there is a performance difference between the Euro 1.9GTi and the Australian version. The Euro cars had more power and were over 50kg lighter (no air con, intrusion bars, etc).

    In regards to the new 206GTi I thought the 0-100km/h figure was 8.5 seconds, in which case it's 1 second (rather than 2 seconds) behind the Clio. If the 206GTi can't do it in under 8.5 seconds then these specs must be wrong:
    138hp (102kW)
    194Nm
    1050kg
    This is a car with 10% more weight than the late Australian spec 205GTi but it supposedly has 20% more torque and 15% more power, with a similar diff ratio. If the 206 is't quicker than the Australian spec 205 GTi then either the engine, weight or diff ratio specs must be wrong.


    The Euro spec 205 1.9GTi were available with the 15" wheels as an option or standard (I can't remember which) from the time they came out (1986?). When I was in Europe in mid 1987 there were heaps of 205 1.9GTi with the 15 inch wheels, while Australia didn't get those wheels for another 4 years or so.

    I loved the 15" wheels on the 205 from the first time I saw them and I wasn't too keen on the 14" wheels. Now for some reason my mind has flipped. I really like the look of the old 14" wheels now, in preference to any of the other wheels. I know it's a weird opinion but I can't help it.

    I don't like the early 205 dash and I don't think I ever will, but I love the late model 205 dash.

    Dave
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
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  12. #12
    jr
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    went for a blat in a clio today and then stepped straight back into the 205 16v. here are my thoughts for what there worth!! dislikes first, no.1 the peddles are out of a childs cyclops car, very tinny/poor quality. no2. the boot appears smaller than a 205. no3. less backseat room than a 205. all this in a car 16 years later and in a bigger car at that. now for the likes... distinctive looks, great seats, fantastic steering wheel [orgasmic] room for 6 foot drivers, great handling,quality tyres, goodies galore!! i mightwait til september, more torque, 16in. wheels etc.

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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Reno17's Avatar
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    hey

    I also went down to my Renault dealer today to check out the cars, not a bad looking range. Inparticular, I mainly went to check out the Clio Sport. They had one left and it had been sold. Had a look at it anyway and did'nt look to shabby. Was dieing for a Drive in one though. Could'nt convince him, hehe.

    Whats the go with these 2L Clio Sports, dose anyone know if there bringing more of them over ? I know there bring the normal range in around August some time. Are they bringing more 2L 124Kw versions over ?

    Might just keep saving for the V6 version instead. hmmm not gonna happen.

    Ashley

    1967 1135 R8 Gordini
    2012 BMW One Series M Coupe

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I have the same opinion as jr on the looks of the Clio
    It has not got the ageless look that the pininfarina designed 205 has
    As a match for the WRX I think in handling yes performance no way
    Remember with the usual mod the clio will get
    a chip a exhaust a filter wont be any match for the wrx owner when he gets his exhaust done and increases the boost to gain 40-50hp
    Renault state that they invented the turbo yet they sell the senic LOL
    In my opinion the 206 is half as good as the 306 gti solid fast roomy stylish
    I dont think u can compare the clio to the best hatch made legendary 306 GTI
    It is amazing that people always compare the
    205 with new cars and still gain nothing like the other renault that suppose to be a match i cant remember but it made all the press 16valves etc then it still fell short
    If i had 30 grand i would rather spend it on a second hand 306 GTI.

    Murat

  15. #15
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,
    Ok ok, its a Clio not a Cleo, I know ones a car and ones a girlie magazine but lets face it, they both give you the same feeling.
    I was very tired that night so leave me alone.
    If I was to spend 30 grand on a new car it would definatly be a Clio, second hand market I would be looking at an Alpine or 5 turbo. I havn't driven the Clio yet but a very close friend who is a Renault / Peugeot mechanic aswell has. He has driven lots of 205's and 306's and stated that he has never been so impressed by a new car in his life as he was on his way to the dealer to put down his deposit.
    Interesting you people saying compaired to 205 its hard to tell ones 15 years newer, thats what I've been saying for years, new cars just aint worth it. I've driven lots of 205's and compaired with my 1976 17 Gordini I tell you, you can't justify the money. The 17G goes just as hard, handles just as good, rides alot better, is more comfortable, better driving position, looks better, nicer gearbox, bigger boot. The 205 is newer and therefore has a better heater/demister, starts easier on cold morning, idles smoother in traffic, has more low down torque but less top end power, the 205 has fold down rear seats with is something the 17 should of had, the 17 is alot more stable at speed, so the 205 is 10 years newer than the 17G but no way is it 10 years better. anyway thats my say and I bet someone could come up with a whole lot of reasons why a 17G is not 10 years better than an 8G.

    David.

    David Cavanagh

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  16. #16
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    David,

    I agree with you.

    I think it is due to the law of diminishing returns. Cars have been around for over 100 years now, and over the last 40 years the rate of improvement has definitely been slowing. All the big improvements were made in the first 70 years (engines, brakes, suspension, etc). It is the same with all technologies, they get to a certain point and then they are close to their full potential and it is hard to improve them any further. That's why knives and forks have remained the same for thousands of years. Some person invented them thousands of years ago, they took a relatively short time to perfect and then they developed no further (because there was no other improvements to be made).

    It's the same with cars. They are very close to their final incarnation. In a few years time when they are either hybrid or fuel cell powered, that will be it, there will be nothing else to be gained from trying to develop the design any further. Some of the Engineers kid themselves that the modern auto industry is all very exicting with lots of new things to develop, but the reality is that most of their new ideas just demonstrate that they are running out of ideas. All the truly useful improvements have either been implemented or will be implemented soon.

    The only interesting jobs left for automotive engineers are to get involved with the lightweight and super-maintainable/disassembleable vehicles and earth moving equipment which will be needed over the next 50 to 100 years for the conquest of the Moon, Mars and the asteroids.

    Regards,
    Dave

    NZ Fleet
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  17. #17
    jr
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    in answer to reno17, yes they are bringing in more 124kw clio's , around september i am told. with what ive seen and read it will be a better car even again than the present one, who knows this current car may become" oh you have the OLD clio " the revised clio has very nice 16 inch 5 spoke alloys[up from 15] more torque,more aggressive looks, color coded side strips, a better revised rear[not so plain] bigger h/lights. i dont know if we will get the new uk options tho.. satnav and climate control. comes in some great new colors too. this is the one to wait for!!

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  18. #18
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave for your comments, I was expecting to get shot for those comments on 205's and 17's, especially by the 205 brigade, I'm glad someone else shares my view.
    I had a car towed in over the weekend you would love, its a 1972 504TI, the most original example I''ve ever seen, original trapazodal (is that how you spell it) headlights, low back seats, my father bought a new 504 1800 back in 71 and I remember it like it was yesterday, this car today just reminds of that car except this one is a TI. I took it for a drive, not a rattle or squeak, heaps of power and the gearchange was so smooth, it came in overheated because of crook liner seals, the owner is getting back to me tomorrow whether to fix it not, I hope he does as I couldn't stand to see it broken up.
    Seeya,
    David.

    David Cavanagh

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  19. #19
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Sounds like a great car. I've often thought that I'd like to one day have an immaculate original early model 504 and put it on club rego and just take it to club gatherings. My father's first 504 was also an 1800 504 which was Barossa Red (maroon) in colour, so I'm quite nostalgic for the early model 504s, especially since they are so rare nowadays. Last week I noticed a maroon 1970 model 504 going free, in the NSW club mag. I thought about ringing the guy and getting him to check if it has the same body number as my father's old car, however I don't have anywhere to store it. It would be great to be able to restore it, but as with many early 504s (especially free ones) it's probably got way too much rust to be worthwhile.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    >[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Cavanagh:
    >[B]Thanks Dave for your comments, I was >expecting to get shot for those comments on >205's and 17's, especially by the 205 >brigade, I'm glad someone else shares my >view.

    205 brigade here! 17G looks better than a 205gti?

    Dave really...

    ian
    ex R12, ex 504, ex Lancia Coupe

  21. #21
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ian,

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

    What we were saying is that the improvements made between 1970 and 1990 are small when compared to the improvements made between say 1950 and 1970.

    These were the major developments between 1950 and 1970:
    1.disc brakes
    2.mass produced multi link independent suspension
    3.electronic fuel injection
    4.integrated circuit boards in instrument panels
    5.seat belts
    6.air bags
    7.crumple zones
    8.traction control
    9.mass produced multivalve engines
    10.mass produced all alloy engines
    11.all power options (power steer, windows etc), but are they really improvements or just gadgets?
    12.collapsible steering columns
    13.crash padded interiors
    14.radial tyres
    15.alloy wheels
    16.electronic ignition
    17.head restraints
    18.sound proofing
    19. mass produced 5 speed gearboxes
    20.CVT transmissions
    21.electronically controlled automatic transmissions
    22.gas pressurised shock absorbers
    23.anti-lock braking systems
    25.major work on hybrid drives
    26.major work on fuel cells
    27.major work on gas turbines

    Some of these may actually have been developed even earlier. The Doble steam car (1920s) was the first car to use an engine management system. It used relays and ladder logic to do the computing.

    The big change since 1970 has been the fact that many of these technologies have filtered down from the top models to the base models, so that almost every one can afford a quiet, safe handling, powerful car with passive safety features.

    The law of diminishing returns applies to ALL technology. Moore's law will only apply to silicon based computers for about another 10-20 years, after that there will be Quantum computers and biological computers, but even they will have limits to how far they can develop (Artificial intelligence singularity in 2030?). Atomic structure and the laws of Physics and thermodynamics put limits on how far any technology can develop. The development will never stop completely, but as each technology reaches its assymptotic limit, the rate of progress becomes slower. The greatest leaps are always made in the early years of any technology.

    Regards,
    Dave
    NZ Fleet
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
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  22. #22
    jr
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    hey ian, which lancia coupe did u have?

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  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Dave,

    Another important factor in improvement is the metalurgy
    High stength steels used in the 205 to keep weight down
    While increasing strength or keeping it the same gaining in weight improvement
    I find in a lot of the old cars they use conventional mild steel as i weld on them quite a lot
    This does not help there cause in responsiveness
    If i can say only one reason why i chose the 205
    It would be Light & responsive = Fun just ask colin chapman over at lotus
    Thats why i always keep the 205 as there is nothing to replace it with under say $10.000
    and give me driving pleasure.

    Murat


  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! ipb205's Avatar
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jr:
    hey ian, which lancia coupe did u have?
    1983 Beta Coupe with EFI. I restored it and then sold it to buy my 93 205 recently.

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Cool car the Beta, I used to have a Fiat 124CC Coupe in top condition. Ahh yes, I still remember the italian love/hate affair

    Chipper

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