Any electronics guru's out there??
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  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Any electronics guru's out there??

    Hi Guys,

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    I'm in the process of getting on old Citroen 72 DS21 injected 5spd pallas running. I've finaly got the engine running, but it always fires injectors 1&3. I've traced this to a dead power transisiter in the computer.

    Anyone out there know where I can get a germanium power transister from. I think I'll head for some local wrecking yards and look for old volvo's with injection. I think old volvo's, merc's etc had bosch 'D' jet-tronic injection as well... or maybe attempt to make an equivelant circuit with a newer power fet?

    seeya,

    Shane Leviston
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Shane,

    Drop Brad a line direct it sounds like something right up his ally. No point in me trying to see him as he gets home after I hit the sack & goes when I'm out in the morning. I think he still lives here.
    He's working on that Proton tonight but he usually checks his e-mail when he gets in.
    You'll get him at
    [email protected]
    Let me know how you go in case I need to stick a rocket up him.

    Alan S
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  3. #3
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    Hi Shane,

    Yep got your emails mate, actually got quite a few today that have been "festering" around the net getting lost due to the mail box problem we are experiencing.

    Do you have a value for that tranny?
    Depending on the wattage you may be able to pick one up from Jaycar
    You could also put the part# into a search engine (like Copernic) & see what happens.

    gibgib

  4. #4
    Tadpole
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    Bankstown, NSW, Australia
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    Hi there,
    I would suggest getting part number off transistor (if it is readable) and checking Farnell Electronics or RS components. Jaycar are ok for average things but not so for very speciaised parts.
    www.farnell.com or rswww.com.au

    Good luck.
    Damian

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DoubleChevron:
    Hi Guys,

    I'm in the process of getting on old Citroen 72 DS21 injected 5spd pallas running. I've finaly got the engine running, but it always fires injectors 1&3. I've traced this to a dead power transisiter in the computer.

    Anyone out there know where I can get a germanium power transister from. I think I'll head for some local wrecking yards and look for old volvo's with injection. I think old volvo's, merc's etc had bosch 'D' jet-tronic injection as well... or maybe attempt to make an equivelant circuit with a newer power fet?

    seeya,

    Shane Leviston

  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    woops, don't have the number on me here a work it was AUY 21K I think. I tried wiltronics here in Ballarat (they are a jaycar seller). He said, nope, never heard of them... I said, well it's out of a 30year old car fuel injection computer... Ahhhh, hang on, he looks up 'the bible' rattles off the specs, and say sorry germanium transistors are no longer made.

    I've given the computer to my old man, he's a radiographer and said he'll take it to the 'techie' at work, he's got all sorts of parts for one of the old xray rooms there.

    I thought they were about 10years ago when I did an electronics diploma, well I remember studying something about them back then.

    seeya,

    Shane Leviston
    PS: I'm really not to get with electronics either... I work with computers...
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
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    If you have any dramas getting the power transistor, my father is an electronics technician and has bucket loads of bits and pieces from organs, microwaves etc etc in his workshop, so may be able to get something for you that way.

    Chipper

  7. #7
    Simon's Avatar
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    Not too sure if it is the same problem, but the Renault 17TS has a similar D Jetronic injection system. The trigger points in the base of the distributor fire the injectors in pairs. In this case the car was only running on two injectors, the points on the second contact being worn. The solution was to use the trigger contacts from a Mercedes, supplied by a Bosch injection place. Problem solved.

    Simon
    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
    1967 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
    1969 Renault 8 Gordini 1300
    2002 Land Rover Defender Td5 130 - ex-CFA Region 4
    2005 Renaultsport Clio 182 Cup

  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Hi guys, Yeah Simons right, I've seen 17's do this more than once, I was told (dunno how true it is) that 17's and D's share the same computor, same system could mean same problem.
    Seeya
    David.

    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

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  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    ok some history for those who haven't read my webpage. The car was bought 10+years ago by a guy here in Ballarat. A couple of weeks after he bought it the fuel injection stopped working. He's an Electronics engineer and in the 10+years he had it he couldn't get the injection running. In desperation he removed the injection computer and fitted a side draught 'SU' carby to the injection manifold, he fed it using the cold start injector feed.

    Since I've got the car, I've found a 'mod' to the fuel pump causing it to run at about 3psi. I've replaced it with a 2nd hand pump out of a VL commadore turbo. I traced all the wiring out and find the throttle potentiometer may be dead (but I think I'll need a cro to check it properly) and the cold start injector is missing. It wouldn't fire in the slightest. The first thing I did was check the injection points in the base of the ditributor. The computer itself was in bits on the back floor of the car, but appeared to have not burnt tracks or components.

    I pulled all the injectors out, they were frozen from lack of use, so I freed them up with some carby cleaner and WD40. Then the hoses on the injectors themselves spit due to age when I tried to re-attach them to the fuel rail, and the injector wiring is so brittle the insulation cracks when I move it.

    I managed to get the fuel rail leak free and adjusted the pressure regulor to 28.5 psi. I hit the starter and she started on 1 cylinder then picked up another and accasionly fired a 3rd cylinder... Bloody fantastic!!!! thinks I, I just need to sort of the igniton side of things and she'll be away. Then the fuel pressure dropped back to nothing.... I couldn't find why, and finaly decided the pressure regulator must have died. So I stepped into the car to switch the igniton off and noticed the fuel guage was reading empty.....(did I feel like a idiot or what!)

    I thought, shiiittttt, where'd the 20litres of petrol I dumped in the tank go? So I switched on the igniton and went in search of a fuel leak, couldn't find one anywhere, thought "oh well" and hit the starter, the motor turned once and locked solid..... Ohhh, that's where the fuel gone, into the motor!! So I pulled the injection manifold and found 1&3 were always firing.

    I rebuilt the injection harness and ground the hose fittings off the injectors and put new high pressure fuel line on them. But 1&3 are still always running. So I whipped out the computer and started tracing the circuit out until I found 1 of the power transisters that always had power at the collector, when there was voltage at it's base (which shouldn't happen, it appears to operate as an NPN, that's shorted internaly).

    Hence now I'm searching for a power transister...

    thanks for the advice, it's very good advice, but well I've already been there

    seeya,

    Shane Leviston
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Anyone who knows the difference between an NPN and PNP transistor is already most of the way there. I'd just keep looking for a good second hand unit. There's a guy in Cessnock with heaps of DS spares.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  11. #11
    Local Tyrant gibgib's Avatar
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    I found this link while surfing. It gives ideas on choosing a substitute transistor when the one you want is no longer available.
    http://www.jaycar.com.au/PDFS/transubs.pdf

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Thanks Guys!,

    the article Gibgib found is great. It basicly outlines exactly what I'm trying to do

    I may have chased up another 'computer', but I still want to fix this one. That way I will be able to lend the spare to any Cit car club members that are having injection problems. If they fit that computer and there problem still exists....Well it aint there computer that's at fault.

    seeya,

    Shane Leviston
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    May 2000
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    Hi All,

    as most of you probably know I bought a DS21 injected 5spd pallas a while back. Well I
    finaly got her running (the neighbours must think I'm crazy, I either swearing like crazy in the
    back yard, or near doing a happy dance when it finaly ran).

    Last time I posted to the lists I almost had the car running but it was always firing injectors
    1&3. I rebuilt the old injection harness as it's wires were brittle. You can just grind the hose clamps off the injectors and fit new hose and normal
    clamps... (not having to get that done professionly saved over $100bucks).

    Anyway when I got her all back together it was still always firing 1&3, so I whipped the
    injection computer out and started testing... For once I didn't fry anything while testing
    <grin>, but I found what appeared to be a dead germanium based power transister. It
    appeared to be working as a internally shorted NPN (I'm not good at all with electronics,
    but I'm to stubborn to give in and give it to someone that knows what there doing.).

    Couldn't find this transister anywhere in the world except 1 website who's minimum
    purchase was $250usd. I finaly found a 'D' jetronic computer out of a volvo 164, it's
    absolutley near identical inside with just a few various capacitor and resister values being
    different. I tried it but the car wouldn't run with it (big surprise hey, it's for a 6 cylinder after
    all). I had assumed even though it didn't sound possible that the volvo must always fire 3
    cylinders at the same time rather than two. I borrowed the fuel injection from the library
    again and found a 'D' tronic 6 cylinder Merc in it. Rather than each pin firing an idividual
    injector like the 'D' does, two of the pins fire 2 injectors at the same time, so the four
    pinouts from the computer that fire injector on the 'D' on a '6' 2 fire a single injector and the
    other 2 fire pairs of injectors. Now as they fire at different stages this will never start the 'D'
    engine.

    So I disconnected the power transisters from the 'D's computer and thought before I install
    the tranisisters out of the vovlo computer I'll check the voltages at the trasister wires, I
    didn't want to fry the new transisters by putting them in a dead circuit. Of course the
    voltages were different were they.... So much for my fault finding skills, I traced the
    problem to a huge capacitor that checked OK everytime I'd checked it. Installed a new
    capacitor chucked the computer back into the car and the car started first turn of the starter
    on 3 cylinders !! Whipped the spark plug on the cylinder in question out and it was OK. It
    was then I noticed I'd just knocked the wire off that injector...

    The oil pressure lights now come on (never bloody ending is it????) But I've just realised
    that's probably because the sump will have more petrol than oil in it. All that petrol that
    cylinders 1&3 were pouring out must have gone somewhere... I'm still happy though, the
    previous owner who's an electronics engineer couldn't get the car running in over 10 years,
    I didn't ever really think I would be able to, but I couldn't resist the challenge<grin>.

    seeya,

    Shane Leviston
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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