The Suspension Thread
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  1. #1
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    The Suspension Thread

    I find suspension an interesting business, after all power is nothing without control. It's an area in which the French have traditionally done well too.

    Here are a few pics of rear suspension designs. Feel free to find more.

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    Peugeot 306 - Torsion Bar & Trailing Arms

    <img src="http://users.bigpond.net.au/skystar/306rearsusp.jpg" alt=" - " />

    Peugeot 307 - Torsion Beam

    <img src="http://www.bluekey.com.au/~pug307/307rearsusp.jpg" alt=" - " />

    Volkswagen Golf V - Multilink

    <img src="http://vwvortex.rely.net/artman/uploads/008__scaled_600.jpg" alt=" - " />

    Volvo S40 - Multilink, aka. 'Control Blade'

    <img src="http://www.bluekey.com.au/~pug307/P2003_1504sm.jpg" alt=" - " />

    A Comparison

    I think it's fair to say the only suspension design in the small family hatch class that can beat the 306 is the Control Blade system used in the Ford Focus.

    Just have a look at the two systems.

    Ford Focus / Mazda 3 / Volvo S40 - Multilink, aka. 'Control Blade'

    <img src="http://www.bluekey.com.au/~pug307/P2003_1504sm.jpg" alt=" - " />

    Peugeot 306 - Torsion Bar & Trailing Arms

    <img src="http://users.bigpond.net.au/skystar/306rearsusp.jpg" alt=" - " />

    Pretty impressive how the 306 does so well with such a beautifully simple design, eh?

    Another thing you notice with Control Blade (the name was invented by the marketing team ) - look at the available suspension travel. Tiny springs. A good design though - the dampers are upright too (think of what happens if you mount dampers on an angle, as the suspension compresses, the angle changes - not progressive). Anyone who's driven the Focus will know what I mean - I think it's a little lighter on its toes on the 306, lighter steering, etc, but it seemed a little sharper to me. About the only criticism of Control Blade is its propensity to transmit noise - it's not the quietest system and that is a fairly important consideration.

    Would be interesting to see some Citroen pics. Having said that, aside from the hydropneumatic system, they are fairly conventional.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Pug307:
    I find suspension an interesting business, after all power is nothing without control. It's an area in which the French have traditionally done well too.

    Would be interesting to see some Citroen pics. Having said that, aside from the hydropneumatic system, they are fairly conventional.
    Try telling some of these mechanics that. roll_lau roll_lau roll_lau

    ....and how it all works:-

    <a href="http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/html/s/scoop2.html" target="_blank">Citroen Hydractive 3</a>

    now to some, this obviously could be a silly question, but how do you take the hydraulics out of a hydraulic suspension to assess it?
    That's on par with taking the coils out of a tin spring one or the torsion bars out of a torsion bar system. mallet

    Alan S dance cheers!

    <small>[ 24 October 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! briz205's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Interesting to look at pug suspension how easy it is and how hard some manufactures make suspension? Less is More for peugeot and it works.

    Nick
    Auckland NZ -
    2000 Peugeot 406 Coupe, Dark Green.
    2001 Renault Clio Sport RS, Silver.

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  4. #4
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    It's interesting to see just how similar the new Golf is to Focus. VW have really had a close look at the handling dynamics of Focus in building this new suspension. They are both great designs, isolating up and town from fore and aft.

    The 306 is simple and handles well, but you can see from the design that the strut at an angle would cause strains with mid corner bumps or braking whilst cornerning. We all know that a 306 isn't the most stable thing under brakes through corners. Yes, I know we shouldn't try and brake half through a corner, but the 306 can bite you if you do that. I've driven a Mondeo and Focus fairly hard, and got caught out powering through a corner in a Mondeo and had to jump on the brakes and the stability was awesome, the rear did not budge at all.

    The 307 is close to Focus/VW there, but the fore strut there is at an angle, which I would imagine would cause some problems with mid corner bumps.

    As I've said before, ST170 is one of the best cars I've ever driven, and given a really tricky bit of road, I'd be more comfortable driving the ST170 fast than I would be driving the GTi6 that fast.
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  5. #5
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Guys,

    all this complicated stuff. Didn't you know Rear suspension was perfected in production cars back in 1955. It's really simple, two trailing arms, mounted to nice big bearings, with a hydraulic cylinder and sphere holding the arm at the desired height.

    Nothing simpler, infact so good was the design, it's still used basicly unchanged in all todays Citroens (and probably Rolls Royces and Big Mercs as well... Simply due to the fac they buy the design straight from Citroen roll_lau roll_lau ).

    What more could you want? Height adjustable, self leveling, comfortable, anti-roll built in if so desired etc, etc ...

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  6. #6
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    I've never driven a real Citroen. How does it handle mid corner potholes and braking whilst cornerning? It looks like a great design, no doubt at all! I'd love to drive one, one day.
    - Lincoln

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  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    There pot holes in the roads I've never found a pothole in any roads (or corners come to that) since I sold my R12 back when I was 19years old (and someone crashed into it !).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: What's a speedhump?? Never found the need to slow down for one of them either ...
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  8. #8
    who? when? huh? GTI124's Avatar
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    Would love to go for a ride in one day. Has anyone driven the C5 here?
    - Lincoln

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  9. #9
    nJm
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    505 GR/SR rear suspension (I guess the 504 and other 505 models look the same):

    <img src="http://www.bluekey.com.au/~njm/froggy/irs.jpg" alt=" - " />

    <small>[ 24 October 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: nJm ]</small>
    Nick
    1983 Peugeot 505 GR


    "All of its cars from the 1.1 litre 205 through the ugly duckling 309 to the 2.2 litre 505 GTi had a rightness and a righteousness about them that turned every humdrum drive into a journey. Someone, I once wrote, in the bowels of Peugeot understands handling and how a chassis should feel." - Jeremy Clarkson

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    DoubleChevron:
    Guys,

    all this complicated stuff. Didn't you know Rear suspension was perfected in production cars back in 1955. It's really simple, two trailing arms, mounted to nice big bearings, with a hydraulic cylinder and sphere holding the arm at the desired height.

    Nothing simpler, infact so good was the design, it's still used basicly unchanged in all todays Citroens (and probably Rolls Royces and Big Mercs as well... Simply due to the fac they buy the design straight from Citroen roll_lau roll_lau ).

    What more could you want? Height adjustable, self leveling, comfortable, anti-roll built in if so desired etc, etc ...

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Almost sounds like you're describing the rear end of a Mini

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I always found my Datto 1600 handled supremely especially considering about 140kw being put through the rear end.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    GTi Revolution:
    Hi,

    Interesting to look at pug suspension how easy it is and how hard some manufactures make suspension? Less is More for peugeot and it works.

    Nick
    Of course its a great setup - they pinched it from Renault
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! DTwo's Avatar
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    Haakon:
    GTi Revolution:
    Hi,

    Interesting to look at pug suspension how easy it is and how hard some manufactures make suspension? Less is More for peugeot and it works.

    Nick
    Of course its a great setup - they pinched it from Renault
    Oh, i don't know about that.....the pug's wheelbase was equal on each side wasn't it?

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Heh heh, good point. Those wacky renos eh? wink
    And now I think about, I think Renault probably nicked it from Citroen anyway.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! two-oh-philic's Avatar
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    Pug307:
    after all power is nothing without control.
    If that were true then what about commodores and falcons?

    205 GTi (S2 ) rolled

    '96 306XR "Sex" Black

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    two-oh-philic:
    Pug307:
    after all power is nothing without control.
    If that were true then what about commodores and falcons?

    Oh I dont know, 185 kw and leaf springs always seemed like a good idea to me... mallet
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts CHRI'S16's Avatar
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    .. forgive me if im stupid but, i didn't see any stuts in those pics, i only saw rear ends.. snig .

    another simple and effective rear is the Honda rear on its R models, the dual whishbone, it keeps the wheel arch movement very consistent and aiding wheel contact patch. i should send a 3 wheel corner picture of my car to Honda.....lol.

    The tortion beam priciple has bean around before commercial cars as several steam trains used a key-way and lobe style desing to flex under give load versus heat to help cotrol heatVswater. This tortional flex is used today in lots of applications, one being most modern screw drivers....lol. And huge big buck tanker ships need this particular flex to combat tearing apart.. thank god for exxon..not. - chris
    ... ptui!

  18. #18
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    Pug307:
    Another thing you notice with Control Blade (the name was invented by the marketing team ) - look at the available suspension travel. Tiny springs.
    Do you know they've got limited travel? Although the spring's short, it looks close to the inner fulcrum so the travel at the wheel end would seem to be OK.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    DoubleChevron:
    Guys, Rear suspension was perfected in production cars back in 1955. It's really simple, two trailing arms, mounted to nice big bearings, with a hydraulic cylinder and sphere holding the arm at the desired height.
    What more could you want? Height adjustable, self leveling, comfortable, anti-roll built in if so desired etc, etc ...

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I'm with you!

    JohnW
    JohnW

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  20. #20
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Pug307:
    I find suspension an interesting business, after all power is nothing without control. It's an area in which the French have traditionally done well too.

    Here are a few pics of rear suspension designs. Feel free to find more.
    Here is a 206 one Justin...

    <img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nigel.wildgust/rear%20suspension.jpg" alt=" - " />
    Regards,

    Simon

    2018 308 GTi 2011 DS3 DSport
    ----
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  21. #21
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Well Guys,

    I just went out and picked up a car trailer. Looking at the way it's so incredibly built I asked how much it weighed "Oh, there about 800kg's ...". Betcha that's before they add all the attachments too eek!

    I dump the CX on low so it's not so high to lift the trailer. Heading down to pick my father up I kept forgeting I had a trailer behind me (as it sits below the level of my boot spoiler & I can't see it in the mirror).

    Actualy it was one of the easiest cars to get onto a trailer I've done. The rental trailer now has incredibly long checkerplate ramps. The ramps are so long they are the length of the DS wagon wheelbase, so the car just about winched straight on with a drama. Now we have a trailer that weight at least 800kg on the back, a DS23 wagon (probably 1500kg). You start the car, due to the fact it has *real* supension it lifts back to the same height it always is. The only time your reminded of the load of the back is when you coasting as it tends to rattle the whole car, while accelerating/slowing the tension on the hitch prevents this.

    The fuel guage and boost guage showed the biggest difference with the weight on the back...

    Gee's it's good to have cars with *proper* suspension under them

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Pugnut403's Avatar
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    I have always been a fan of hydraulic Citroens, but I have always been around Pugs, so that is what I have. Love the DSs though.

    NJM, the 505 suspension you showed is as you thought the same as 504s, but you left out 604s. Also, the wagons had 203/403/404 type rear suspension with torque tube, live axle, and coils.

    Anyone got a pic of the 403 front suspension? It is cool.
    For those not familiar with 403s, they have a transverse lear spring at the front which forms the bottom suspension arms. The top suspension arms are the arms on the lever arm dampers. While this sounds VERY antiquated (the Model T used transverse leaf), anyone who has driven a 403 can attest to the handling of them. Non Pug people who I tel about the 403 are usually speechless afterwards. When you comnbine the unusual front with the unusual rear, and drop in rack and pinion, crossflow, hemi, etc and add 3 stud wheels, they get more speechless. Then you tell them that a 403 came second in the first Armstrong 500 with only 1.5 litres, and they don't always believe it. And that is without getting started on the 1914 Grand Prix car!
    I love Pugs, and teh unusualness is one of the best things. Methinks I gotta get a Citroen next
    Pugs Rule!

    403, now sold
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  23. #23
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Thanks to everyone who posted pics of suspension designs.

    The kind folk at my local tyre store let me snap some pics of the car whilst it was up on the hoist.

    Here are some pics of the ubiquitious torsion beam setup on the rear of the 307.





    Underside of the front suspension.


    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pugnut403
    Anyone got a pic of the 403 front suspension? It is cool.
    For those not familiar with 403s, they have a transverse lear spring at the front which forms the bottom suspension arms. The top suspension arms are the arms on the lever arm dampers. While this sounds VERY antiquated (the Model T used transverse leaf...
    The '49/'50 Fraser Nash Le Mans replica does too...and one of the the 90's Corvettes, which has a fibreglass transverse leaf!

  25. #25
    Sense Pug307's Avatar
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    Anyone else got under car shots? I'd be especially interested in seeing shots of the suspension of the hydropneumatically sprung Cits.

    Peugeot 307 XS 1.6
    Aussiefrogged in MEL, PER, SYD, BNE & ADL.
    Rendezvous Adelaide 2005

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