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  1. #1
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Are you licenced legally?

    Headlines in the local rag today; a guy has been booked for driving a car with sequential transmission because all he had was an automatic licence.
    The copper reckoned he was manually changing gear so should have a manual licence & handed him a ticket for $120 & 3 points. Apparently had he not been changing by hand he was legal and the local el Commandante' has been called upon to make a decision as to whether he was or was not breaking the law. It seems that this is something that is so totally new that our lawmakers haven't thought of it and one of our local little sparklers decided on his own interpretation. Problem is, I approached the Transport Department a while back with my c-matic, just for a lark & asked if my son went for a licence test in it would he be given a manual or an auto licence & was told straight up - "Auto" so how come the coppers didn't do the same thing? I've an appointment with the Editor first thing Monday morning so we might ask that question there as well as asking how the copper involved was riding his motorbike at over 90 in an 80 zone at 5 this afternoon. Seems to be a case of being overly observant when administering the law & lacking observation when supposedly observing it. Double standards I think it's called! mallet mallet mallet
    So as most of our Police forces work on a "Monkey see, monkey do" philosophy, it might pay for those driving C-3s & the like to clarify the situation with the local jackboot set. deal

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  2. #2
    XTC
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    Alan S:
    Headlines in the local rag today; a guy has been booked for driving a car with sequential transmission because all he had was an automatic licence.
    It's police [email protected] stories like this that really make me wonder what is the average IQ of the boys in blue - room temperature ???

    A manual has nothing really to do with changing gears (I've driven many automatic hire cars like a manual ). A manual is all about having a clutch....

    Another waste of court time and money (should dock the coppers pay to cover the expenses).

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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I agree with reference to the clutch.

    But how about the fact that u have to do more than one thing at once.

    Times when only one hand on the wheel?

    Have to give auto drivers all the help they can get

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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Warwick's Avatar
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    In Victoria, 156 Selespeeds are registered as automatics, even though they have a manual gearbox. Arbitrary decision made by some Vicroads geezer before morning tea. This decsion is based upon the number of pedals I think.
    "Now my dream lies shattered like the shards of a broken dream"

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    How do the cars with Auto box but also a + - shift selection lever count?

    I have riven a Magna recently (the event will not be spoken of again ... blimey what a lemon of a car) that had the auto box with a "manual" selector if one wanted "sporty" (oxymoron in a magna?) feel. But in the hire comapny's brochure it was listed as an AUTO.

    mallet
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  6. #6
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    Oh god, Alan is on his soap box again...

    From the vicroads website....

    Transmission Types
    Automatic Transmission
    An automatic transmission means a transmission that is able to change gears without assistance from the driver and has no driver operated clutch. However, a driver may be able to select individual gears and prevent the transmission from changing.

    Manual Transmission

    A manual transmission means a transmission that is unable to change gears without assistance from the driver and has a driver operated clutch. A driver has to disengage the clutch in order to change gears as required.

    Automatic Clutch

    An automatic clutch means a clutch that is able to operate without assistance from the driver to engage it. However, the driver is required to operate a gear shift to select the appropriate gear as required.

    Last updated on 13/06/2002
    My reading is, if it CAN change gears automatically then it's an auto, regardless of whether you
    select individual gears and prevent the transmission from changing.
    If it CANT change gears automatically then its a manual..

    The reason that you wouldn't be able to sit a driving test in a C-Matic is because you are tested on clutch operation as part of thetest for a manual licence....obviously your clutch control would be excellent in a C-matic

    originally posted by Alan S
    ...how the copper involved was riding his motorbike at over 90 in an 80 zone at 5 this afternoon. Seems to be a case of being overly observant when administering the law & lacking observation when supposedly observing it. Double standards I think it's called!
    So as most of our Police forces work on a "Monkey see, monkey do" philosophy, it might pay for those driving C-3s & the like to clarify the situation with the local jackboot set.
    Alan, in regards to the cop doing 90 in an 80 zone... I pressume he passed you whilst you were doing the speed limit...If this is the case, then he was probably doing exactly what I normally do. I try and make headway through traffic (by travelling about 10kph over the posted limit) so I'm not driving (riding) next to the same cars for hours on end. This way you have more chance of seeing someone do something dangerous/stupid/illegal. The other option is I sit in the bushes with the radar and book some poor sod who commits the hideous crime of going 5kph over the limit....

    It's your choice, but I know which one most would prefer out of the cops catching a driver doing something dangerous/unsafe/stupid/illegal and catching someone who didn't have the compulsory (these days) one eye on the speedo doing 5 kph over the limit...

    What is the Matrix?? Its the fantasy world that you live in if you think you can have your cake and eat it too...

    Welcome to the Real world....

    <small>[ 10 August 2003, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: mistareno ]</small>

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts tekkie's Avatar
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    Mistareno,

    Could I then argue the point of travelling 10kms faster than traffic to avoid driving next to the same car for hrs on end possibly creating dangerous situation where police cannot get around both cars to catch people driving dangerously.

    I know what you are saying, and I would agree, but its kind of hard to stomach a police car (souned like a nice 5.7L from the sound of the exhaust when he accelerated) racing another paddy wagon (Rodeo?) next to a busy shopping centre by giving it bootfull just to come to screeching stop at the next lights, and repeat the process until the next set of lights last friday outside my workplace. No sirens, or lights.
    but I digress from the original thread.
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    But where does this leave someone who drives a car with an automatic clutch, mistareno? It remains neither a manual nor an automatic according to the definitions provided, so this part of the question remains unanswered.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  9. #9
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    Rod Hagen:
    But where does this leave someone who drives a car with an automatic clutch, mistareno? It remains neither a manual nor an automatic according to the definitions provided, so this part of the question remains unanswered.

    Cheers

    Rod
    My understanding would be that it requires a manual licence because the driver MUST change gears manually, whereas on a tiptronic style transmission, if you forget, even if it's in manual mode (+/-mode) it will still change gears....evenetually

  10. #10
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    tekkie:
    Mistareno,

    I know what you are saying, and I would agree, but its kind of hard to stomach a police car (souned like a nice 5.7L from the sound of the exhaust when he accelerated) racing another paddy wagon (Rodeo?) next to a busy shopping centre by giving it bootfull just to come to screeching stop at the next lights, and repeat the process until the next set of lights last friday outside my workplace. No sirens, or lights.
    but I digress from the original thread.
    As i said, It aint a perfect world. If it were there would be no d#%kheads in the police force, but just as in any other organisation there is a small percentage who taint the opinion of the whole......

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    mistareno:
    Rod Hagen:
    But where does this leave someone who drives a car with an automatic clutch, mistareno? It remains neither a manual nor an automatic according to the definitions provided, so this part of the question remains unanswered.

    Cheers

    Rod
    My understanding would be that it requires a manual licence because the driver MUST change gears manually, whereas on a tiptronic style transmission, if you forget, even if it's in manual mode (+/-mode) it will still change gears....evenetually
    Does this therefore mean that its not possible to use a car with an automatic clutch to obtain a licence to actually drive it?

    No user operated clutch, therefore no manual licence possible if using it for a test, (presumably you could getting an auto licence using it, as another poster attested), but once you've finished the test you still can't drive it home alone, because its a "manual"?

    I've always been very sceptical about this "auto only" licence business. I suspect it deters people who originally get their licences on auto's from learning to drive a manual and acquiring new skills on an ongoing basis. If one aspect of technological variety is going to get special treatment why not a host of others? (engine size, 4WD, FWD, RWD, ABS, etc etc).

    I've never, ever, seen any figures that support the idea that allowing people who obtain their licence in an auto to drive a manual is in ANY way implicated in an increased accident or fatality rate. On the other hand I've seen plenty of incidences of the other factors being involved in real world accidents.

    The whole "auto / manual" licence thing was, in my book, one of those silly, seat of the pants things that was introduced in some places (or is it australia wide these days?) because it "seems like a good idea", without any real consideration of whether it mattered or not.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  12. #12
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    Rod Hagen
    Does this therefore mean that its not possible to use a car with an automatic clutch to obtain a licence to actually drive it?

    Cheers

    Rod[/QB]
    My take (as I stated above a few posts back) would be that you could not use a C-matic (or similar) on a licence test, as it has no clutch and that facet of the test therefore cannot be judged....

    And no, you could not obtain an auto licence in one either because it's still a manual transmission....

    We are being a bit silly about all this.....

    P.S....call me when the above scenario happens so I can pee myself laughing

  13. #13
    nJm
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    I'd never really thought about all this before. The BMW SMGII in the new M3 can be put into an auto mode (and what a shocking one it is too!), however even in auto mode the car will roll freely when you release the brake pedal. So steep hill take-offs, even when in auto mode, require either a hill start or a very quick jump onto the accelerator.
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Yes, the specific examples are might be silly (though it might genuinely affect someone going for a licence test in a number of vehicles, and, in the case mentioned, has apparently cost someone money and points), but the principal isn't.

    The legislation relating to this stuff is likely to become increasingly inappropriate with technological change, and there is next to no evidence relating to its value in terms of road safety.

    Anyone have a list of pedalless clutch cars? The French were pioneers in this area (think of the Jaeger clutches on 403's and 404's , for example, as well as the Cits), but there are plenty of others.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  15. #15
    XTC
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    I don't think it's a complex thing ...

    If you don't have clutch - it's an auto - even if you can change up and down manually.

    It's a simple test ...

    Test 1. If you can drive a manual (with a clutch) - you can drive an auto. True. (except the BMW 7 series as people can't even work out how to start it

    Test 2. If you have only ever driven an auto (full auto or manual-auto* without clutch) you are "unlikely" to be able to drive a manual with a clutch without some training, hence you are a safety hazard.
    Why this particular "boy-in-blue" couldn't grasp that concept is beyond me. It's not Neurosurgery. mallet

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    * Manual-Auto is that an oxymoron or what.
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  16. #16
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Without trying to hijack as happened earlier.
    [quote/]
    "I approached the Transport Department a while back with my c-matic, just for a lark & asked if my son went for a licence test in it would he be given a manual or an auto licence & was told straight up - "Auto" so how come the coppers didn't do the same thing?"

    Response mistereno
    " select individual gears and prevent the transmission from changing.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If it CANT change gears automatically then its a manual..

    "The reason that you wouldn't be able to sit a driving test in a C-Matic is because you are tested on clutch operation as part of thetest for a manual licence....obviously your clutch control would be excellent in a C-matic"
    Isn't this a matter for the licencing authorities to decide?; after all, if it doesn't come under the definition of an auto but by definition a manual, and if a family's only car was a c-matic, how apart from going to a driving school or hiring a car could anyone ever get a licence to drive it? The argument of clutch control holds no water; the test has to be determined on the car the test was made in; in this case one with a torque converter instead of a clutch which will roll backwards on an incline if not held in check. How do bus drivers go in buses with auto tranmissions? Get told to come back with a bus with a crash gearbox?
    On an auto test, how do they do clutch tests in those if this is so important?

    [Quote/]

    "in regards to the cop doing 90 in an 80 zone... I pressume he passed you whilst you were doing the speed limit"

    No he didn't; we picked him up at a roundabout & he was heading back to the station at the end of his shift. Same whalloper does things like sweats on a pothole & books drivers who swerve over the white line to miss it on a rural road, sits at a shopping centre car park entrance with a car illegally parked & gets them for putting one wheel over the centre line and in this case nabbed this guy with the licence issue.
    This guy acts as though he is above the law and my submissions to the Transport Committee Inquiry have revolved around trying to word commonsense into the legislation; they keep insisting the coppers already have the discretion & this is unnecessary, this case proves the opposite. It also strengthens my case against "Treasury based" road safety legislation based on this precedent.
    The point of mentioning this being for no other reason than to show that here we have a guy who will split straws to the extent that he makes a major issue out of whether a guy is correctly licenced driving a clutchless car manually changing gears, yet sees no wrong in breaking the speed limit without reason to a point that he would prosecute someone else for. You know "every K over is a killer" type of brainwashing that he would regularly quote to his victims. That's not preaching from a soap box, that's blatant double standards!!

    "What is the Matrix?? Its the fantasy world that you live in if you think you can have your cake and eat it too..."

    Obviously, that cake cuts both ways in this instance! deal deal

    Alan S

    <small>[ 10 August 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Alan S ]</small>
    If it ain't broke, use a 12" shifter.....that usually does the trick!!

  17. #17
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    mistareno:
    tekkie:
    Mistareno,

    I know what you are saying, and I would agree, but its kind of hard to stomach a police car (souned like a nice 5.7L from the sound of the exhaust when he accelerated) racing another paddy wagon (Rodeo?) next to a busy shopping centre by giving it bootfull just to come to screeching stop at the next lights, and repeat the process until the next set of lights last friday outside my workplace. No sirens, or lights.
    but I digress from the original thread.
    As i said, It aint a perfect world. If it were there would be no d#%kheads in the police force, but just as in any other organisation there is a small percentage who taint the opinion of the whole......
    I think you can apply the same to the cop you refer to.

    BTW:
    No he didn't; we picked him up at a roundabout & he was heading back to the station at the end of his shift.
    How may i ask did you "pick him up"

    Please don't tell me that your life is so shallow that you have brought a speed detector??

    If so..refer to the Matrix comment...

  18. #18
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    What about the Ferlec clutch on the old Dauphine?

    It wouldn't work without driver input... you had to take your hand off the gearlever! That was all... nothing to do with how you took it off the lever, just removing your hand engaged the clutch.

    Is that the Jaeger clutch referred to above? I only ever knew it as the Ferlec. And it only sold in Australia in the Dauphine.

    Again, mistareno shows us the police attitude that shines through and infuriates thinking motorists...

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    Probably the same or very similar, Ray. The Peugeot 403 / 404 one was activated by movement of the gear lever too.

    Essentially it used electronics to do the same thing that the hydraulics did in some Citroen D's. This is quite different from the torque converter setup in the C-matic, of course.

    Its re-appearing all over the place in various guises, of course. Mercedes and Ferrari both use electronic clutches in some vehicles.

    My bet is that the days of the third pedal are numbered. Why add extra complexity when its no longer really needed? There will be all sorts of variants to confuse the legislators in the mean time - "Manuals" with a foot or finger button instead of a pedal (requiring no real "clutch control - the electronics will take care of the friction point etc) , "autos" with an electronic clutch instead of a torque converter, etc etc.

    Foot pedals might disappear altogether in fact. Do you really need them with electronic brakes and acclerators? Maybe we'll have to have seperate licences for "hand" and "foot" controlled vehicles?

    Cheers

    Rod

    <small>[ 11 August 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Rod Hagen ]</small>
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  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I think the answer to this one is easy.

    People should ONLY be allowed to get a license in a manual car... The 'L' plater only having access to an automatic car isn't really an issue. They can still learn car control, traffic flow etc... in there familys automatic. However you MUST have a number of profesionaly instructed lessons down here. These lesson should teach you how to drive a manual, using the driving instructors standard manual shift car.

    Yes I know it's a simplistic view ... But it should make sense.

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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Rod Hagen's Avatar
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    I'm afraid it still doesn't make sense to me Shane.

    In fact an equally valid argument could be made that learners should have to do all their training in an auto. That way they can focus on learning the really essential things for safe driving - road behaviour, car control, traffic flow, etc etc - without being diverted by the technical issues like changing gears.

    In safety terms I suspect it would have a more positive impact, in fact. How often has your life been endangered because someone else muffed a gear change? How often has it been endangered because someone doesn't know how to stay in their lane, or doesn't check before changing lanes? (I'm not really suggesting they should do this, by the way, merely that it makes as much sense)

    Learning to change gears in a manual is really pretty simple these days, once you have the other stuff genuinely under control. Its not like the old days of gear boxes without synchro. Why, therefore, make official fuss about it? The difference in handling behaviour between a FWD and RWD, or an ABS and non ABS car in an emergency matters much more in my book , but we don;'t expect specific licence endorsement accordingly.

    Cheers

    Rod
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  22. #22
    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DoubleChevron
    <strong>I think the answer to this one is easy.

    People should ONLY be allowed to get a license in a manual car... The 'L' plater only having access to an automatic car isn't really an issue. They can still learn car control, traffic flow etc... in there familys automatic. However you MUST have a number of profesionaly instructed lessons down here. These lesson should teach you how to drive a manual, using the driving instructors standard manual shift car.

    Yes I know it's a simplistic view ... But it should make sense.
    I've taught two stepsons to drive using an automatic until they became competent enough to attend to changing gears while driving.

    The first was highly motivated. He needed a car to get a job, basically. He got a temporary job, and as soon as he had enough he asked me what to do about a car. Together we bought (using his money) a 200B automatic, and we bought a five speed gearbox and all the bits he needed to fit it.

    And as its engine was seedy, we got another engine ready to throw in at the same time, reconditioning it completely.

    Once he had a bit of experience behind him we did the conversion. He hasn't looked back since.

    The other did the same initial learning, then got a lot of schooling with a friend in a manual bush bashing. He goes for his licence in a couple of weeks, completely competent in the functions of driving a manual, though I think he needs to learn a bit about some things still.

    By and large, it's not too hard. People should all learn to drive a manual. You never know when you might need to to save your life... or someone else's...

  23. #23
    XTC
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    Ray Bell:
    By and large, it's not too hard. People should all learn to drive a manual. You never know when you might need to to save your life... or someone else's...
    Great point ... imagine not being able to take someone to hospital cause you can't drive a manual ..

    - XTC206 -
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  24. #24
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    Ray Bell:
    Again, mistareno shows us the police attitude that shines through and infuriates thinking motorists...
    Which bit....

  25. #25
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    My Armstrong Siddley (no longer with us) was classed as a manual with its centrifigal clutch. I guess the gear changing with the "clutch" pedal fooled them.

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